MovieChat Forums > The Shining (1980) Discussion > This film and supposed "goofs"

This film and supposed "goofs"


Perhaps Kubrick realized instantly from the very aerial first shot of "The Overlook" (Timberline) that he would be forever accused of continuity goofs on this film. So he just ran with it and included numerous perceived "goofs" and intentional errors which DO unconsciously unnerve his audience. It makes perfect sense, because Ullman is telling Jack information that ALREADY contradicts what we have already seen in the first few seconds of the film!

This film is a perfect example of the impossible, come to life.
An M.C. Escher lithograph that a child can ride his tricycle in, and even magically get to the second floor - without any stairs.

There is no actual hedge maze on the sloping side of Mt. Hood behind the Timberline Lodge. One would need to level the land to construct a hedge maze there, a monumental task. Kubrick had a full-sized set for the back of the hotel built at Elstree Studios, which is what we are actually seeing for the entire film. Not the Timberline Lodge. And the opening shot also shows an actual ski-lift to the left of the hotel. This goes against what we are later told: "When the place was built in 1907, there was very little interest in winter sports. And this site was chosen for its seclusion and scenic beauty" by a very friendly man sitting in front of a bright, SHINING window that cannot logically exist within that architectural space.

Just how stupid do some people think Kubrick was?

A film that BEGINS with a blatant "error" should then not be concerned with them at all. And thus, THE SHINING proceeds to toy with the viewers from then on. Things "don't look right" because Kubrick knew that would be subconsciously disturbing to us.

You cannot trust what is said.
You cannot trust who is speaking.
You cannot trust that you are in the present.
You cannot trust how the hotel appears.
You cannot trust your parents.
You cannot trust your husband.

True horror results from not having any frame of reference for support. Even when you think Hallorann is going to save the day, you are tricked.

The film is a gigantic puzzle where you have to think situations through for yourself - to even realize what is really happening on the screen.
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THE SHiNiNG

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I think that the film's very first shot, the opening shot of the idyllic landscape, the lake and mountains, foreshadows what the film will be about, of something unexpected suddenly occurring, suddenly upon us or overwhelming us: the little island that we assumed was at a (safe) distance from us but in fact is now right upon us. Of our failures to perceive, our denial of those failures, and the shock or horror when they are then suddenly upon us, provoking a desire to escape, to run away ... and so we cut to Jack Torrance seeking to escape, to run away (from all the troubles in his life, his daily reality, and the truths about himself), to nightmarishly pursue his illusions, his fantasies ... to seductively travel to the Overlook.

As if it is to serve as a coda if not a forewarning for everything that will subsequently occur throughout the film, the opening shot - with a duration of just 10-12 seconds - of a calm, frozen-like lake surrounded by mountains already creates uncanny and distorting effects on the viewers' perceptions, and is therefore worthwhile examining in further detail. It can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgCejsyS0t8.

In "The impossible object: Reflections on The Shining", John Brown writes of the affective impact of this first shot in the film: "The Shining has an extraordinary opening shot. It jolted me in my seat the first time I saw the film, and I still find it unnerving after repeated viewings. It’s a shot of a huge glassy lake surrounded by high cliffs, deep in the Rocky Mountains. In the middle of the lake there is an island and in the first split-second of the shot you think you are flying across the lake towards the island. But then, suddenly, your brain tells you that the perspective of the camera is fixed, and that you are not moving in relation to the cliffs at either edge of the frame. Which means that, even though it’s an impossible event, the island is skimming across the lake, moving towards you. A moment later, the island passes beneath you and the perspective is no longer fixed. It’s you who are flying. Normality has been restored."

Brown goes on to speculate that Kubrick may have achieved this disorienting effect by the use of the well-known Vertigo Zoom (named after Hitchcock's film, where it was first used to simulate the main character's sensation of vertigo), or Dolly Zoom, the Zoom-In/Track-Out or Track-In/Zoom-Out technique that is now so widely over-used - especially in horror and slasher movies - that it has become a cheap cinematic cliche, an emotional shorthand for feelings of being overpowered by unknown, dark, or unconscious forces. For a good summary of how the Vertigo Zoom is achieved, read this explanation: http://www.brokenprojector.com/wordpress/?p=21. Brown continues, arguing that "I don’t know how this spectacular and electrifying effect was achieved by the camera; my guess is that the helicopter with the camera on board flew away from the island while the camera simultaneously zoomed in on it, and that the film was then reversed for running through the projector. But I think I do know why this remarkable shot - which has apparently no possible connection with what follows - forms the gateway to Kubrick’s ghost story. It demonstrates the power of the moving image to represent the unreal, to enforce the impossible. It declares that things are not what they seem nor mean what they say. It tells a lie in order to problematise ‘truth’."

A simple comparison with the use of the Vertigo dolly-zoom or effect in other films will quickly reveal that The Shining's opening shot is not a Dolly Zoom; indeed, Kubrick never used this technique in any of his films, perhaps because it is just too hokey, too obvious as to its narrative intent, foregrounding or drawing attention to the technique or effect itself, a cheap visual effect employed as an easy metaphor for a character's supposed 'psychological' state. Apart from Hitchcock's Vertigo, other well-known examples of its use include Spielberg's Jaws, Scorsese's Goodfellas, Schrader's Mishima, Soderberg's Sex, Lies, and Videotape, Jackson's Lord of the Rings, and Kassovitz's La Haine, many of which can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y48R6-iIYHs&feature=player_embedded, and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv41W6iyyGs&feature=related

Except all of the above does not apply to The Shining at all. What is quite unique about The Shining's shot, however, is that it achieves the distorting effects that Brown describes above purely by means of Kubrick's symmetrical use of vanishing point, a foundational concept of the visual arts since the Renaissance which would come to prominance with the works of Vermeer. Kubrick's shot is indeed a forward tracking shot taken from a helicopter, but there is no zoom effect used. Instead, the low angle or height of the helicopter enabled the island to be positioned 1. at the very centre of the image, and so serving as the focal point of our visual perception whether we're consciously aware of it or not (note also how its triangular shape/appearance is later directly matched in the final shot of the opening credits by the centred triangular pitched roof at the centre of the Overlook hotel, a recurring triangular 'overseeing' motif throughout the film), and 2. at vanishing point, the most distant point in the horizon where all lines meet, including the contour lines of the surrounding mountains, the skylines and the lake lines**. By positioning the island in this way in the very first image in the film, we automatically but falsely assume that it is some great distance away at the end of the horizon, rather than what and where it actually is: a small island (no more than 30 feet wide) that is very close to us, at most a few hundred feet away. Kubrick's camera hold the island in this central vanishing point position as it glides or tracks forward over the lake closer to it during these opening seconds of the film. The result is startling: it is as if the island is suddenly and rapidly floating through the air towards us, everything else in the scene - the huge mountains on either side, the sky, the lake - remaining static. It is only when the island is finally 'on top of us', has reached us, and the camera/helicopter both pans and veers off towards the right of the island that we finally realize we're actually moving forward at high speed. Needless to say, it's much more effective a technique than for instance the Vertigo Zoom because it doesn't draw attention to itself as a technique, as an optical illusion, so (magically) seducing us into its trance before realizing what is happening.

** This parallax or perspectival illusion is worth comparing with another, very common, visual illusion: the Moon Illusion, in which the Moon always appears much larger when it is very near the horizon than it does while higher up in the sky. Because the moon is at the end of the horizon (at vanishing point) we wrongly imagine that it should be much smaller than it is when viewed high up in the sky, but as it's actually the same size and at the same distance from us, it suddenly and surprisingly appears to be much larger. The island in The Shining's opening shot has the opposite effect: though it is actually very near to us and quite small, we imagine it to be large and far away because it is positioned directly at/on the image's vanishing point.

As the Wiki entry on the Moon Illusion also argues:

Extensive experiments in 1962 by Kaufman and Rock showed that a crucial causative factor in the illusion is a change in the pattern of cues to distance. (See Ponzo illusion, Depth perception, linear perspective, Texture gradient.) The horizon moon is perceived to be at the end of a stretch of terrain receding into the distance, accompanied by distant trees, buildings and so forth, all of which indicate that it must be a long way away, while these cues are absent from the zenith moon. Experiments by many other researchers have found the same result; namely, when pictorial cues to a great distance are subtracted from the vista of the large-looking horizon moon it looks smaller. When pictorial cues to an increased distance are added into the vista of the zenith moon, it appears larger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_illusion








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It's an incredibly complex film that only appears to be a mainstream horror film on the surface.
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THE SHiNiNG

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Perhaps Kubrick realized instantly from the very aerial first shot of "The Overlook" (Timberline) that he would be forever accused of continuity goofs on this film. So he just ran with it and included numerous perceived "goofs" and intentional errors which DO unconsciously unnerve his audience. It makes perfect sense, because Ullman is telling Jack information that ALREADY contradicts what we have already seen in the first few seconds of the film!


Hmmm ... maybe ... but I doubt it. The thing is ... when you watch older movies, that were made before the invention of the VCR, you will often see continuity errors of this kind. The most common one is when someone is reading a newspaper, or a book, or whatever. If you pause on these scenes you'll often see the text is meaningless, or there is a short piece of text which is copied over and over again, or the text is complete gibberish, etc. Back in those days it didn't matter because the vast majority of people could only see the movie at the cinema, and had no opportunity to pause it and look for errors. Now, as you no doubt know, even trailers are filled with all sorts of easter eggs and huge amounts of information can be gleaned from pausing. Nowadays when someone is reading a newspaper, or computer screen, or whatever, if you pause then the text has been written out 'properly' and makes sense in the context of the scene.

These types of editing and continuity problems are much more common in older movies.

So ... I think it's more likely that Kubrick realised that most people who saw the movie wouldn't remember that very brief scene at the beginning of the film where you discover that there is no maze. That by the time the maze comes into it story, the vast majority of people won't realise that it doesn't actually exist in the opening shot.

It must be awesome to so well loved, admired, and respected - as Kubrick is - that when people find mistakes in your films, they don't classify them as mistakes and instead determine that you put them in there on purpose! Having said that though, you may well be right...

As for Ullman "telling Jack information that ALREADY contradicts what we have already seen in the first few seconds of the film", can you explain that please? What does he tell Jack that is contradicted by the opening shots?

There is no actual hedge maze on the sloping side of Mt. Hood behind the Timberline Lodge. One would need to level the land to construct a hedge maze there, a monumental task. Kubrick had a full-sized set for the back of the hotel built at Elstree Studios, which is what we are actually seeing for the entire film. Not the Timberline Lodge. And the opening shot also shows an actual ski-lift to the left of the hotel. This goes against what we are later told: "When the place was built in 1907, there was very little interest in winter sports. And this site was chosen for its seclusion and scenic beauty" by a very friendly man sitting in front of a bright, SHINING window that cannot logically exist within that architectural space.


1. OK, so, one way or another the business with the maze was deliberate. However I think it was Kubrick and the editor thinking that no one would remember that the maze didn't exist in the overhead shot at the beginning. You might be right though. Who knows? Either way, it's possible that, even if people don't realise it consciously, it does give people a feeling of uneasiness.

2. I don't understand your problem with the ski-lift to the left of the hotel? I can't actually even see the ski-lift you're talking about! Where is it exactly please? Assuming that it is there - and I'm not doubting you - why does that contradict the statement about the time when the place was built? There's nothing to say when the ski-lift was built, so where is the contradiction?

3. Why can't the window in the office "logically exist within that architectural space"? Jack walks in, then walks to the right of reception, then turns left, then turns right into the Ullman's office. When you watch the opening shot, the hotel could certainly have a small office, with a window like that, exactly as is shown. At any rate ... if it isn't possible then it's so close to possible that there's no way it would have an effect on people; either consciously or subconsciously.

Just how stupid do some people think Kubrick was?


I don't think he was stupid! I think that in those days, when people couldn't pause movies, continuity and editing had a bit more room to move and that's all we're seeing.

A film that BEGINS with a blatant "error" should then not be concerned with them at all. And thus, THE SHINING proceeds to toy with the viewers from then on. Things "don't look right" because Kubrick knew that would be subconsciously disturbing to us.


Once again, I agree with you that it's deliberate, but I think it's deliberate in the sense that Kubrick, the editor, and the script supervisor (i.e. the person in charge of continuity), simply thought that no one would notice - during their first viewing - and that it therefore didn't matter. You might be right though - I concede that - and even if you're wrong, I also concede that the scenario may cause people subconscious discomfort.

I think you need to look at it in a different way. You have to consider that finding a location which enabled them to shoot the opening shots, in such a way that the maze could be there somewhere, but isn't visible, would have been extremely difficult. Perhaps even impossible! Failing that, they would have somehow had to alter the opening shot of the hotel such that we didn't see it in it's entirety and therefore the maze could have been there. Do you see what I'm getting at? I think it's most likely that getting those opening shots, in such a way that the maze could be there, would have been extremely difficult - if not impossible - and instead they simply decided that the audience was extremely unlikely to notice...

You cannot trust what is said.
You cannot trust who is speaking.
You cannot trust that you are in the present.
You cannot trust how the hotel appears.
You cannot trust your parents.
You cannot trust your husband.


Agreed!

True horror results from not having any frame of reference for support. Even when you think Hallorann is going to save the day, you are tricked.


Not sure about that. There are different ways of achieving horror, 'true' or otherwise. That's why the Horror genre is so incredibly broad; there are so many ways of horrifying people. I always find it interesting to look at lists of the most disturbing horror movies. You quickly realise that what horrifies you the most, isn't what horrifies other people. Different strokes for different folks. Having said that, The Shinning is quite unique in the way it slowly ramps up the tension. To me it has some similarities to Alien; which is a great movie because it starts out with the ship being completely still, quiet, and asleep. Then you suddenly realise that there are sirens going off, the computer is announcing that the ship is about to self destruct, Ripley is running around with a flamethrower - smashing the cat's box into walls - and you realise that the transition was so subtle and brilliant that you never noticed as the heat was slowly turned up. The Shinning is the same and Kubrick was truly a master craftsman...

The film is a gigantic puzzle where you have to think situations through for yourself - to even realize what is really happening on the screen.


Agreed! It has multiple interpretations and is truly a brilliant film...

We're from the planet Duplon. We are here to destroy you.

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What do you make of the moving chairs behind Jack fillsher? It happens twice, when Jack tells Wendy to get the f!ck out, and second after his dream of killing Wendy and Danny. Same chairs, opposite sides behind Jack each time.

Pretty much agree about the helicopter shadow - however Kubrick was doing something different with the sense of reality in his last few films, they are sublimely uncanny.



Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride

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We are told from the first meeting with Ullman that there's no Skiing at the Overlook. Due to its seclusion and Scenic Beauty etc etc. However, in the Glorious Helicopter Shot, there is a Ski Lift in frame next to "The Overlook"... There's also 2 Yellow and ONE Red VW Beetle in the Lot. The latter of which is noticeably banged up. Weird stuff all around. I don't think the mistakes were universally on purpose, I don't doubt that some were continuity errors... However, Kubrick's continuity errors were far too coincidental(And QUITE OBVIOUS) to be mistakes. Often appearing in between cuts, shots, POV shots etc. Examples of which are the desk and chairs behind Jack as was noted above and another curious one is when Danny first tries to open up Room 237... The door behind him is closed, then strangely enough, it's OPEN when he pedals away in fear. To me, that is not a mistake, that is something FAR too easy for a man like Kubrick to miss. He was putting a little germ in our Brain. Why is that door open? Is it The Overlook? Or is SOMEONE in there??? Your guess is as good as any... But that's the beauty of it. The impossibility of it all is too arranged. Like Organized Chaos.

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We are told from the first meeting with Ullman that there's no Skiing at the Overlook.


Actually ... I don't think we are told that there's no skiing at the Overlook. Ullman states that there was no interest in winter sports when the place was first opened, but Jack asks why the place isn't kept open throughout the winter because, he says, the skiing there would be fantastic; to which Ullman agrees that it would be. The clear implication is that people do ski there at the time the movie is set in; they just didn't ski there at the time when the hotel was opened. If you see what I mean?

Hey ... but I'm not trying to have an argument with you! I'm sure you can take it both ways. I think we all love the movie and, as you say, we'll never really have answers to some of these questions and in fact I think that's partly what makes the movie so fabulous; that like 2001 it is open to completely different interpretations of what actually happens and what was intentional or not?

:-)

We're from the planet Duplon. We are here to destroy you.

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You guys are trying too hard.

It's a simple case of using the footage you have (outdoor scene introducing the hotel and surrounding area) because it's too damned expensive to try and build a maze/remove the ski lifts/etc.

Smaller details like chairs moving about, and a bit of a surreal atmosphere are usually planned shots, and the effect of film quality at the time.

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The Maze could've been super-imposed. Similar to the way Jack watches Danny and Wendy in it. Kubrick used an apartment building and maybe a Matte I believe? Super-imposed to appear larger than it is. It's left out for an obvious Surreal Reason, as if the Overlook is still taking shape.... Maybe

The Ski-lift is also a strange one because on any large TV and especially the Big Screen, it's hard to miss. I don't think it's far fetched with Kubrick at all and the furniture and doors etc, it's definitely almost all on purpose. Some to confuse the viewer, other to enforce emotions and such of certain scenes. The door opening between POVs could be something as simple as Camera Placement and Kubrick not caring or as many have mentioned, he could have embraced his errors and used them. Not planned but not fixed... I definitely think some are definitely continuity errors though. It's part of the fun though

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As I've been arguing for years, every shot, every scene, in the film has discrepancies, ellipses, discontinuities, inconsistencies, incompletenesses, disparities that are an inherent part of the film's narrative structure. Indeed, everytime I watch the film (or even reflect on it in a critical-observant way), yet more such inconsistencies become apparent. Indeed, more became apparent the last time I watched the film a few weeks ago, noticing yet more discrepancies, ones that haven't even been documented anywhere before, as I'm already familiar with the hundreds of documented discontinuities, the ones mentioned on numerous websites, including those I contributed to or created in the past.

Here's a quick one, yet another one: when Hallorann arrives in the Snocat at the Overlook, we see Jack on a stairs (the zigzag stairs that leads down to the hotel foyer, near to where the model of the maze is positioned), axe in hands, dragging his limp foot, going down to the foyer. But this is NOT the actual stairs going down to the hotel's foyer. It is the (similar but with identificable differences) stair's that goes down into the back of the Colorado Lounge (beside the pool table).

In other words, there are two similar 'zigzag' stairs in the film: one which leads down to the hotel foyer, beside the model of the hedge maze, and a second one that is at the back of the Colorado Lounge, behind it, just in front of the pool table (we see this stairs in a number of scenes, when the Torrances are being shown the Lounge on Closing Day and later when Danny is cycling around the hotel).

Yet when Jack goes down towards the hotel foyer as Hallorann enters the hotel, having arrived by Snocat, we see Jack going down the 'zigzag' stairs of the Colorado Lounge, not that of the hotel foyer, yet Jack arrives in the hotel foyer (hiding behind a pillar just before attacking Hallorann).

And this is just one, just one more, of hundreds such discontinuities throughout the film. I'm certain that the next time you watch the film you'll notice one ... ("Yes, Mr Torrance, I'm certain of it!"). For the viewer of the film, all of these un-noticed (in early viewings of the film) disparities generate anxiety at the unconscious level, have an unrecognized subliminal affect, that generates a generalized background anxiety: even when things seem perfectly normal, average, everyday, realistic, something nevertheless seems 'out of place', weird, odd, strange, uncanny, strangely familiar, familiarly strange, the overall affect that the film is all the time seeking to generate in the viewer ... (ie nothing is ever what it merely seems to be, nothing can ever be simply taken for granted, nothing ever has an 'obvious' or 'commonsensical' explanation, etc). There is always something missing, left out, excluded, repressed ... OVERLOOKED. The Truth.

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Oh, nooooo no no. Definitely just discussing. I just feel the Convo is clearly about Skiing... In fact, doesn't Jack mention it? Either way, it is visable. Could be nothing... Could be a bit more. I agree, very much open to interpretation.

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