MovieChat Forums > Ordinary People (1980) Discussion > Beth: What if the Reverse Had Happened?

Beth: What if the Reverse Had Happened?


(SPOILERS)


What if Buck had lived, and Conrad had died. Would Beth have become detached like she did when Buck died? Or would she have been okay, since my interpretation is she really favored the jock son all together?

I've always wondered. There's a scene where Conrad remembers Beth laughing at Buck telling a story. Buck seems to almost be flirting with his own mother in the scene, as she teasingly waves her hand off at his stories about girls. It's very disturbing in a sense.

I think Beth blamed Conrad secretly, and also didn't love him as much. Or even at all. How was Beth's relationship with Conrad BEFORE the accident?

reply

I find nothing disturbing (incestuous) about her joy of Buck. Audiences look for things today that don't exist.

But, I have also questioned this on the board by asking why it's assumed she loved Buck, instead of merely liking him better. "Love" is being overused in the film in my opinion--the key emotion is liking/disliking. Similar to my mother, these types only feel "love" as they know it.

reply

Calvin loved his son and Conrad's love for his father was a key feeling between them. This was expressed in the final scene. The love aspect is really regarding Beth and if she was capable of a genuine, deep-seated love. Did she even love her husband and did she love him more than Buck?

Exorcist: Christ's power compels you. Cast out, unclean spirit.
Destinata:💩

reply

I find nothing disturbing (incestuous) about her joy of Buck. Audiences look for things today that don't exist.
_____________

Well, I found that bit a little weird/uncomfortable myself. So did Pauline Karl when she reviewed the movie in 1980. Maybe not "incestuous", but it definitely seemed off and maybe even a little inappropriate.

Besides, you don't know what was going in Robert Redford's mind when he did this scene (which was not in the book.)

Maybe it's you who can't see the nose on your face.

reply

Definitely intended to look near-incestuous, imho. Felt that way when I first saw it in my teens, and it still seems that way watching it today.
It was the only time in the film she showed skin, and
she was laughing at his story, not the way mothers laugh at their kids' stories, but the way teenage girls laugh at jocks/pretty boys' stories (which Buck was both). Very telling scene.
Redford directed the hell out of this movie.
I still think Scorsese's direction of Raging Bull still deserved the Oscar. But, man! Was this a close second in my book. Two of my all-time favorite movies.

Sutherland not even being nominated for this is a crime.

"I must be crazy to be in a loony bin like this."

reply

I thought Beth was wearing shorts because she had just finished playing tennis.Conrad flashbacked to her laugh because she was laughing the same way when she answered the phone call from her friend. I'm still not sure what that flashback was about.

reply

I think the laugh was the point of the flashback-how she could laugh like that with his brother, and with her friends, but never him. Which (wrongly or not) solidified his assertion that Beth may not have even liked him, let alone loved him. <Remember when he ran up to his room, and Calvin came in to talk to him "Don't you see? She hates me!">

"I must be crazy to be in a loony bin like this."

reply

I was 17 when I first saw this film, and I immediately spotted something off about this scene. There was definitely something flirtatious about Beth's behavior towards Buck, the way she laid back on the grass, the way she giggled in a coquettish way, the way she playfully threw something at him. Most of all her overall reaction towards Buck's story was strange: he was boasting about behavior that an "ordinary" parent would become angry with a child for. Was she so indulgent towards him?

One question to ask regarding the meaning of this scene is whether it actually happened (so that it would be Conrad's memory of an event) or is it just the product of Conrad's imagination. I actually tend to believe the latter. I find it hard to imagine that Beth would really behave in this way. Conrad is feeling bad that he and his mother do not get on well, and he is thinking of how well she and Buck got on. Conrad's imagination compares it to a situation where he is the ignored suitor and Buck is the very successful suitor - he wraps the "girl" (his mother) around his finger. As the scene is not explained further, we can have no idea which is true.

reply

The scene is strange, it's not really a behavior of a mother and son bond. When I say this I don't mean she had desires or alterior motives, but merely that she seemed to want to be liked by her son, and that she didn't treat him as a son as much as a friend or a person she really liked.

On the other hand, I think the family would have probably broken anyway, only in a different way. We can assume that Buck and Calvin would have been hurt and grieved deeply. Calvin seemed to have an even deeper connection with him, because his mother didn't show affection to him. The family system broke with the death of a child and Beth couldn't deal with it. Even if she personally would not be as affected as with Buck, the rest of the family would and she wouldn't know how to deal with it, making her the outcast in the family again.

reply

Beth would have said, "Who's Conrad?"

As a shallow person, Beth's ego was wrapped up in the All American Boy image of her eldest son. Conrad was just the other kid.

I'm sure she would've have gotten her maudlin mileage out of Conrad's death, but she would never have looked at Buck and thought: why wasn't it you?

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


reply

It wasn't Bucks death that truly destroyed Beth's relationship with Conrad. It was the suicide attempt. The death was an accident, and while tragic, was no ones fault (although I do think Beth blamed Conrad to some degree). The attempted suicide of her son cast a shadow of responsibility upon her. She felt that, in the eyes of the world, she had been shown to be a bad mother because her son was "mentally ill"

Had Conrad died I think it would have been very different, mainly because Buck wouldn't have done what Conrad did.



Oh what a falling off was there.

reply

Bingo!

Her attitude was more of a "How dare you embarrass me?" type of thing.

That's why she reacted the way she did at the party, when Cal revealed Connie was in therapy

reply

I wondered the same thing, but i think if Conrad died, it would've sent a reaction the other way. I think Beth would've been "fine" or would've kept a better grip on herself and the situation because with Connie out of the picture, she wouldnt have the awkwardness of dealing with someone she doesn't connect with. Even in the flashback there was no real connection between them.

But i think she still would've felt the embarassment and rage she internalized, because i could see Buck becoming an alcoholic or something or doing something stupid out of his guilt over Connie's loss. But because Beth is closer to him, it wouldnt be as bad as what Connie did in her eyes. But Cal would probably have the bigger issue...although i dont think they would've broken up. But i could see Beth cheating on her husband due his reaction to Connie's death (in this alternate take). So, if it did end it would be because of that...but still her showing her weakness....but even then, I dont see Cal leaving in that scenario.

Whether Connie or Buck, though, it still wouldve messed up the family. Death sucks.

reply

After seeing Ordinary People almost two dozen times over the years, I'm convinced that the hingepin in the story is indeed Beth. She's incapable of love. For one thing, she's a control freak. Conrad makes that clear when he says she fired a maid for not dusting the living room correctly. She doesn't like mess; she doesn't like it when her world is turned upside down, and she doesn't like disorder. Her jock son/first baby/first child died, and that meant an obituary, funeral arrangements, grief and DISORDER. That Conrad MIGHT have been able to do something about it, such as save his brother, only added more salt to Beth's wounds. I don't believe she ever loved anyone, including herself. But she did like to have a world to her liking and one of her own design. Conrad threw all that into a tailspin.

Part of her, especially toward the conclusion, realizes that she's the problem, not Conrad or her husband. Or even Buck's death. She moons in Buck's room because it being "perfectly preserved" also preserved a slice of her life when things were perfect, orderly, and just fine, thank you.

That Conrad continues to have problems, which only adds more disarray, is the straw that broke the camel's back and revealed Beth's true colors. Her husband finally realizes it and sees her for the person she really is. She can't deny it, either. That's why Beth packs her bags and leaves.

reply

She's incapable of love. For one thing, she's a control freak. Conrad makes that clear when he says she fired a maid for not dusting the living room correctly
I don't see the parallel necessarily. You can be a control freak and fire the maid, but still be capable of love. There are mothers who are not control freaks and incapable of love also. I think we're analyzing things too much. My mother says "love, love, love" repeatedly and refuses to stop after I've asked her to, but she is also a narcissist. One issue is the difference between love vs. respect. Too many factors for too many people.
Part of her, especially toward the conclusion, realizes that she's the problem, not Conrad or her husband
Severe narcissists don't necessarily ever see themselves as the problem, which makes them a narcissist. I don't think they just wake up to the facts. At he conclusion, she likely gave up, and thought she cannot deal with all these "wrong" people causing her undue distress.


reply

...with Connie out of the picture, she wouldnt have the awkwardness of dealing with someone she doesn't connect with....because Beth is closer to him, it wouldnt be as bad as what Connie did in her eyes.
______________________

It is hypothetical, because we don't get to know much about Buck in the film, just that he was the golden son that represented what Beth had strived for or stood for in her milieu. If Conrad had died and Buck had blamed himself and tried to kill himself, I feel that Beth would have been able to be there for him, as opposed to how she felt about Conrad's suicide attempt. It would still be a mess though; but connection is key and as suggested in the film, Buck wasn't that strong. It might have been even more difficult if he went off the rails. Either way, I think the Jarrets were destined to be torn apart. Calvin and Beth operated from different ends of the spectrum regarding Buck's death and Calvin was blind or even dense to not see his wife's coldness and aloofness, until a tragedy had occurred.

Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪

reply

Either way, I think the Jarrets were destined to be torn apart. Calvin and Beth operated from different ends of the spectrum regarding Buck's death and Calvin was blind or even dense to not see his wife's coldness and aloofness, until a tragedy had occurred.

Yes. This is the bottom line. And people often overlook the fact that Conrad WAS the stronger of the two brothers, despite what Beth thought. One of the key points to this movie is that Buck let go of the boat while Conrad was able to hang on. If anything, Buck would have been even more difficult to deal with if he had survived his brother, and Beth and Calvin would have come to odds on how to deal with that.

But the reality is that Buck was not strong enough to survive his brother, and so the alternative universe proposed by the OP could not have happened.

reply

It's strongly implied that Buck was the son that Beth loved and favored. Calvin (whilst he also loved his son) was more objective about his flaws than his wife was. I do believe if Conrad had died, she would have acted the same (keeping it locked in) but how much it would have affected her on a personal level, I'm not sure.

Calvin however was more tuned into Conrad's feelings became more protective towards him. Beth wasn't willing to deal with it and instead felt Conrad was using the tragedy to gain emotional leverage over his parents.

The film is an interesting look at how people deal with the same tragedy but in very different ways. For Conrad, it's survivors guilt and the lack of warmth/support from a parent during this time of grieving. For Beth, it's about suppression. Moving on from what's happened and not having to deal with the emotional fallout. For Calvin, it's about trying to unite his family in their time of pain and hoping to find some path of healing in the process where they can all move forward together.

reply

The line that always sticks with me was Beth's cruel dismissal of Conrad, "Buck NEVER would have been in the hospital!" which is the equivalent of saying, "You are not the man he was."

Of course, this completely disregards the fact that it was Buck who did not survive the boating accident when Conrad did. Buck, the great swimmer, drowned.

This always suggested to me that Beth had a very skewed and distorted vision of her two sons, something that Cal did not suffer from. IMHO, she clearly wished it had been Conrad who had died, and she probably also harbored the notion that somehow Conrad was to blame for Buck's death.

reply

In the book, she blamed Conrad for trying to killed himself to hurt her. She reveal this to Cal by said "He did it wickedly, made it as sickening as possible! The blood - all the blood!" (my translation). Of course that's not true. But Beth's only think about maintain appearance of perfect life, this's the reason why she didn't like Conrad he wasn't "prefect" enough for her. In some sense she blame Conrad for Buck (the "prefect" son) death.
She actually revenge him in a very cruel way by not visiting him in the hospital all these months.

reply

I have not read the book, so that's interesting to learn. Why did she think he had done it to try to hurt her?

reply

I have not read the book, so that's interesting to learn. Why did she think he had done it to try to hurt her?

reply

I thought it was interesting that Buck and Conrad seemed to hang out with the same group of friends, given that they seemed so different. But I'm wondering what Conrad was like before his brother's death. His dad says that he was always "hard on himself." So was he always prone to depression, whereas Buck was lacking introspection? Did Beth dislike Conrad because she was sensitive and she thought of that as a weakness?

reply

I think it depends on what happened to Buck in succeeding years if he was the survivor. What if Buck underachieved in college and later in a career? He apparently had lots of girlfriends - lots of opportunities for unplanned/embarrassing situations there. If Beth's golden child didn't turn out real great, she would have had problems dealing with it.

reply