MovieChat Forums > The Lathe of Heaven (1980) Discussion > Totally Missing Something..

Totally Missing Something..

posted 19 years ago by SCLisi
24 replies | jump to latest

---SPOILERS---

Wow so I'm pretty sure I'm not understanding the following due to the fact that I just watched the movie at 2:30am going on 24 hours of no sleep.. So help me out :)

1. I understand EVERYTHING in the movie up to where George says he's "felt this way before, 4 years ago" and that it can't happen again. When he says that he was dying and dreamt he was alive, did that signify that everything after he collapses in the beginning was a result of his dreaming he was alive? In other words, was the only reason he survived because he dreamt he did?

2. He says he tried to convince himself it wasn't a dream but then "this IS the dream." Is this just confirming my last sentence in #1?

3. The "world after April" is the world after the bomb hit, correct? If so, why does George ask Haber if he's seen the world after April? How would Haber have seen it if George dreamt this new existence?

Like I said, I'm probably extremely tired and am missing something due to my tremendous lack of sleep, so any help is appreciated!

[–] Roy_L_Fuchs 18 years ago

For 1:

The entire film is a dream he has at the real moment of his death (at the end of the film) and none of it actually happened. He didn't survive. It was ALL a dream.

For 2:

In the dream, he dreams about being an effective dreamer. It all seems real, but it is all a dream. Haber never existed.

For 3:

See number 2.

It should all be clear now. :-]

[–] Roy_L_Fuchs 18 years ago

As an addenum, I would like to mention that the book by Ursula LeGuinn is an excellent read.

[–] raimondas_l 18 years ago

SPOILERS?

I don't remember the book perfectly, but I believe that the interpretation "everything was just a dream of dying George" is only in the movie. There was no such thing in the book.

[–] thatcat1960-1 18 years ago

That's what I recall as well.

[–] Roy_L_Fuchs 18 years ago

It is quite obvious that none of the events actually happened.

I had a cat named George Orr, and I asked him. Hehhehehe :-]

If one whispered quickly his name... Goerge Orr... he would come running and attack you (playfully), claws and all!

Big twenty pounder too. He would dwarf an album cover. Coolest cat I ever had.
HE was the only effective dreamer I ever knew. He would sleep and dream and when he woke up, there would be more food waiting for him! :-]

Your cash ain't nuttin' but trash...

[–] thatcat1960-1 18 years ago

Twenty pounds? Holy wow! Yeah, I bet everything he wanted was waiting for him when he woke up! lol

[–] Roy_L_Fuchs 18 years ago

That was back in '88. I'll have to find a couple of pics, and scan 'em.

Your cash ain't nuttin' but trash...

[–] jordan-202 18 years ago

in the books, the power is real but it came about because of his essapist responst to the nuclear attack.

[–] Billy_McAvoy 17 years ago

-----------------------
For 1:

The entire film is a dream he has at the real moment of his death (at the end of the film) and none of it actually happened. He didn't survive. It was ALL a dream.
------------------------
This doesn't jibe with the fact that heather and george see haber silent in his wheelchair at the end of the film (and I believe this is in the book as well). it is a dream, but the dream goes on, george takes heather to lunch. It's like a near-death experience that never stops.

[–] lebellue 17 years ago

I like to think that BECAUSE he dreamed he was alive and the world wasn't destroyed by the bomb THAT he is now surviving. Interpretation is that he has positive control over his reality. This positive control starts to break down when Haber keeps trying to force all his "do gooding" into George's dreams. Haber means well but I think a message of the book is that we need to enjoy our lives. This means that we shouldn't constantly look around and judge our reality as rlght or wrong------Trying to change the world in our own image.

Remember that quote by the alien? Something like----"We need to realize when we don't understand something and let it go. Otherwise we will be destroyed on the Lathe of Heaven" ---NOT a direct quote

I believe when George asks Haber if he's seen the world after April..... It is indicative of Haber going so far into judging reality and trying to change it because of his judging of good or bad. This judging and changing has taken him into the negative reality of the nuclear war in April 4 yesars ago. He is now stuck in this horrible place. Unable to get back to the good dreams of how beautiful life(or our dreams of life) really is....

[–] roell29 17 years ago

"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven."

from Wikipedia - "The title is taken from the writings of Chuang Tzu...other epigrams from Chuang Tzu appear throughout the novel. The translator is uncredited, and may be Le Guin herself; she has published her own translations
of another Taoist writer, Lao Tzu."

According to this Wikipedia article, the movie adaption was generally faithful to the book, so it wasn't "all a dream" as another poster stated. George was dying of radiation poisoning after nuclear war (armageddon) and, at that moment, had his first affective dream - that he was alive, and consequently the world was reborn. He says that he first thought it was a dream that he was alive, but eventually realized it wasn't. Then he says, *this* is the dream, meaning, I think, he realized at that moment that he was inside of the egomaniacal Dr. Haber's first affective dream, which was in the process of radically transforming reality. It was inside the dream that he fought Haber and defeated him.

I also didn't understand what was meant when George asks Haber if he's seen the world after April (didn't quite understand the previous poster's explanation). And a few other things - After George had his plague dream, why did Haber remember the plague having happened but not Lalache? How/when did reality change again so that Lalache returned to her original skin color?

Maybe someone who has read the book can elucidate us, since the movie was generally faithful to the book, according to Wikipedia. I think there were a number of small plotholes, but all in all, a fantastic achievement for a budget of $250,000.

[–] dont_b_so_BBC 17 years ago

"To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven."
------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, everything that can be (explicitly) understood about the book and the movie ARE there in the book and the movie. Whatever's not there is up to the reader's or viewer's interpretation-- though reading a bit more of Lao-zi, Zhuang-zi or even Le Guin may allow you to come up with a "richer" interpretation.

The "plot-holes" are therefore not really plot-holes-- because George Orr's ability is never (properly) explained one way or another. Neither George, Haber or even Le Guin really understood how it works or came about-- if George did he could have stopped it; if Haber did he could have controlled it; and if Le Guin did she would be asked to replicate it under laboratory conditions.

The Lathe of Heaven is the "fable" kind of science-fiction and the quotes from Lao-zi and Zhuang-zi-- or rather, Le Guin's interpretation of them-- probably give you the best clue as to "how" to understand the book or the movie.

[–] dont_b_so_BBC 17 years ago

In reply to the OP's questions.

1. I don't really understand your question-- but as the movie goes, George has been an "effective" dreamer ever since he was an adolescent. The first incident of effective dreaming which he remembers (& tells Haber) is when his aunt started messing with him and he "dreamt her away".

The April-bomb incident, leading to George's collapse and "dreaming" up a reorganized society (where he & many others survived) probably happened after THAT-- otherwise George would never have a memory of having had a pretty normal family life (including the divorced aunt)

2. Like I said, George is an "effective" dreamer as far as the movie goes-- but apart from that, nobody really came up with distinctive terminology for "normal" dreams, "effective" dreams, "dream-realized" reality A, "dream-realized" reality B flowing from A, etc.

What happens in the movie is not a "normal" dream in George's mind, but a succession of realities "realized" by George's "effective" dreaming. George himself doesn't really know what to call them.

3. A consequence of George's "effective" dreaming is that only the dreamer remembers what the reality was BEFORE the new "dream-realized" reality-- until Haber got involved. So in the final "dream-realized" reality of the movie, George wanted to check if Haber remembers the things which happened before their final confrontation-- where Haber and George were basically trying to "out-dream" each other.

Haber only gives George a glare, which may or may not mean anything.... because in the final reality, George & Heather have only just met each other and Haber may never have seen George before.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] deepaliblue 17 years ago

well...I believe that george was in reality dying after the armagedon and he had a dream about a nice reality where there was no war and he and everybody else were alive.His dream was a normal dream...and it maches my believe about us not remembering and realizeing our own death,but only passing salowly and without notice in a dream.It is said as well that before we dye,time collapses and actually when we dream,and have a long mixed-up dream that contains much time passing(like dreaming of a jurney that would take as days or weeks),this in rewality takes us a few seconds,so in dreams time is no use...
Everything might be his dream in the last moment of his life.Now,the ability to have effective dreams is because somehow in his consciousness he realized there was only a dream,and that everything is in his mind,so he can controlls it.Dr is a character of his dreams(and we all are actually our own selves in different bodies and personalityes in our dreams)who tryes to make use of the power to manipulate the way things were going in what he thinks is the reality,but he goes so far that realize the lucid dream george has,and it is not really nice to find out u are only dreamed and not real(I can sau this from my own experience>>>I had a multilevel false awakeing lucid dream in which I was asking my slef about the probability to be dreamed in that moment,and thinking that when the dreamer wakes up it will not be like me dying,it would be like me dissapearing like I did not ever existed...and I found that tragical and felt pitty,so I wanted to proove if there coulkd be only a dream what I was living,so I checked the light swicher and realized it did not worked,and I woke up.The dream actually continued with me explaining to a friend about the big dream I had,and realizeing once again that I was still dreaming...so I woke up and I must confess I checked and prooved reality for about 2 weeks to be sure I am not still dreaming...and I can`t actually tell for sure I am not even now...)

Anyway...what I am telling is that realizeing u are a character in someone`s dream or even in your own dream is very powerfull to experinece like sensation and brain consciousness,so that what I believe happened to Dr.In the other hand,George,who realized and accepted completly that everything around him was a dream,stoped controlling it and wanted to live it as it was,like he would have loved to do with life in reality as well...so even the dream was still guided by his own subconsciousness,it was at a small level,like in our normal dreams...but he still knows about being inside a dream...
so when he meets at the end the Dr and asks him,it is obvious that the character Dr in his dream realized he was not a real person,but only someone`s mind projection,so it was too difficult to accept and damaged his person..
Imagine that u would realize u do not exist actually,but are only someone`s thought or idea,or image,or dream...it would not be nice to find out u are not real...

Hope I did not went too far with the ideas,but I am lucid dreaming passionate and I am very interested in this area.

Recomandation:Waking Life(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/)

A person starts living when he can live outside himself..
Einstein

[–] trip_trip 16 years ago

I think the ending might be the result of another effective dream realized by George. Haber remembers as well, but only because he was part of the last dream. Haber has been neutralized by George and therefore while he can remember that reality has been altered, he is unable to change it "effectively" due to George's force of will.

[–] laurie001 16 years ago

and of course that also explains Haber looking proper pissed-off in his wheelchair at the end of the film!

[–] trip_trip 16 years ago

exactly!

[–] sun_scryer 10 years ago

so when he meets at the end the Dr and asks him,it is obvious that the character Dr in his dream realized he was not a real person,but only someone`s mind projection,so it was too difficult to accept and damaged his person..
Imagine that u would realize u do not exist actually,but are only someone`s thought or idea,or image,or dream...it would not be nice to find out u are not real...

I've seen that intepretation as well, and I agree with it. Overall good post, in spite of the grammar and spelling mistakes ;) Lot of interesting food for thought.

---------
(In reply to hwcperfect re Godzilla 2014)
LaLlama: Make me give a *beep* whats going on

[–] t-a-walker 16 years ago

Its a little ambiguous in the movie whether everything is a regular, "non-effective" dream that George Orr is having as he is dying of radiation. You can make arguments either way, similar to how you can argue whether the bulk of the movie Total Recall was the result of a "schizoid embolism" in Arnold Swarzenegger's character's mind. However, George Orr is conscious of the fact that there was a nuclear war, and to me at least his last conversation with Haber implies that Haber saw the results of the nuclear war that was "undone" by George Orr's effective dream, and it was possibly that that drove his insane. Haber was able to see all the changes that had been caused by George Orr once he became an effective dreamer himself, although despite Haber's efforts, George Orr never lost his ability either, hence his ability to salvage reality from the mess Haber was creating.

[–] Billy_McAvoy 16 years ago

Yes, it is a little ambiguous. But I don't consider that a fault, I consider that good abstract art, it lets the viewer question themselves about the entire arc of the plot. I find that hellaciously good writing.

Incidentally I agree with your take on the story. The first time I saw this film (before reading the very quick-reading book) I had surmised that George actually acquired the 'effective dreaming' as a side effect of the radiation sickness, and that the 'alternate reality' created by this first dream (as he lies dying in the aftermath of the nuclear war) had placed the memory of the 'first effective dream' well before the event. Thus when Haber goes farther and farther back to rearrange things he cant really go farther back than "the world after april" because the effective dreaming didn't exist before that.

Wow, I didn't explain that very well, hope that makes some sort of sense in the context of this film.

anyway, one of my favorite one-liners:

Orr: what if everybody could do it and reality was getting pulled out from under us all the time?

Haber: I'll sleep on it....

[–] poofta1970 15 years ago

Another interpretation is that everything...and I mean everything is George's dream including the things we haven't seen him dream yet (like dragons).

George's memory of dreaming the world back into existence is part of a dream where he dreams he is the last survivor of a war.

His dream of making his Aunt go away is part of a dream where is Aunt came to stay.

His ability starting there is part of a dream where he has those abilities.

His being George Orr is part of a dream where he is George Orr.

In other dreams he may be Haber.

All the dreams are part of the great dream.

[–] Billy_McAvoy 15 years ago

The book begins with a Quote from Chuang Tse: "Confucius and you are both dreams, and I who say you are dreams am a dream myself. This is a paradox. Tomorrow a wise man may explain it; that tomorrow will not be for ten thousand generations."

And yes this book seems to be an exemplary tale from this quote.

...Guess What S1m0ne! We have now entered an age where we can manufacture fraud faster than our ability to detect it

[–] gonelunch1 12 years ago

This is one of my favorite movies and I've read the book several times, but not recently.

Everyone else has covered the dream/reality questions but I have a simpler one. Did they ever explicitly say the original nuclear explosion was in April? I don't remember that, but in the movie they do talk about "the night everything fell apart" when Haber had his first effective dream. I always thought that was what April referred to. George had his reality; now Haber has his own. But because Haber wants to control the world instead of flowing into it, his creation is a mess.

Go on, my internet friends: point out the 17 places they say the original explosion was in April :-)