is this better or worsier than RAN - Kagemusha (1980) Discussion

[–] Pvt_Joker 20 years ago

if it's better or "worse" than RAN? well, how about they're both masterpieces?

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[–] 20 years ago

[deleted]

Ran is probalby kurosawas third best film behind rushomon and seven samurai.

and i dont think worsier is a word.

Show me Potato Salad!

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[–] dave_j_manley 19 years ago

I would like to start a petition. We shall make "wosier" a word.

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[–] kurohuj 19 years ago

oh, and i don't think that "rushomon" is a word either...

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[–] gamer8740 19 years ago

wow your original, cause i didnt just say that like 2 posts ago.

Show me Potato Salad!

http://chemicalali99.tripod.com/

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] j_money77 14 years ago

It's woosier fo sho. While its unfair to call Kagemusha nothing but a dress rehearsal for Ran (because Kurosawa did want to tell this story and was very involved in making it), the two will inevitably be compared to eachother because of it, and when you copare the two, Ran is broader in scope, and a more fully realized production. It doesn't have any of the clumsy or flat out corny musical cues of Kagemusha, Nakadi is much more suited for the role of a tragic warlord than a clumsy thief, and Ran contains maybe the great final indictment of humanity by Kurosawa. I thin it's overall a better made movie, and carries a lot more meaning.

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[–] ronin2296 9 years ago

"your original"? Your original what?

I think you mean "you're," as in the contraction of "you are," as opposed to "your" which is strictly a possessive pronoun and is used totally out of context here.

Or am I just pissing into the wind?

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[–] Jake_Fratelli 19 years ago

Rushamon, if Wes Anderson made a Samurai film.

*/\*Goonies never say die!*/\*

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] christopher_blair 18 years ago

I disagree. Mostly I'm unimpressed by Akira Kurosawa's color films, I was unimpressed by both Ran and Kagemusha. Let's face it, the man was past his prime when he made those films.
They don't even touch the surface of characterization the way that Yojimbo, The Seven Samurai, and Ikiru did.

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[–] mizswheat 16 years ago

Agree with your analysis - however, even when Kurosawa isn't at his best, he is still way ahead of most who would call themselves his competition.

When categorzing the best of Kurosawa, one must not forget Throne of Blood. This film was my first Kurosawa; an experience not soon forgotten.

He was a true film visionary with an almost unrivaled cinema-graphic eye for gigantic proportions and minute detail. Making his early films even more impressive was the fact that many were adapted from Western literature and unerringly reworked for the Japanese movie-goer. Yojimbo is a retelling of Dashiell Hammett’s Red Harvest. Throne of Blood, Shakespeare’s MacBeth; and no other King Lear is even a close second to Ran. Kurosawa’s films are operas without song, and their music plays on long after the last credits have rolled and the house-lights have come up.

More importantly, Akira Kurosawa's films are not only proof positive that human nature is basic, but that is is universally so.

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[–] vanityfair_713 16 years ago

Really? May I ask why you didn't like Ran?

He said it's all in your head, and I said, so's everything--
But he didnt get it.

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[–] TheEnigmaticRonin 15 years ago

- They don't even touch the surface of characterization the way that Yojimbo, The Seven Samurai, and Ikiru did.

I find it funny how everytime Kurosawa is mentioned, eveyone talk about his samurai films, and Ikiru as the non-samurai/kurosawa flick,
while nobody mentions his other masterpieces like Stray Dog, or High and Low.

" Look, there's two women fuc*ing a polar bear!" - Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas 1998

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[–] Coffee-Blues 11 years ago

I agree with you. "High And Low" is amazing and barley mentioned by a lot of people. I am also fond of "The Bad Sleep Well" too. Of course, I do like Kurosawa's Samurai films as well but I don't want to limit myself to just that genre.

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[–] dirkdiggler051 10 years ago

How about you don't reply if you don't want to answer his question?

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[–] pimpscorpion 19 years ago

most of the battle scenes in Kagemusha have a bunch of silhouettes with bright flashing colors in the background, i mean seriously they completely slacked off in the Kagemusha battle scenes compared to what they did in Ran which is probably why Ran is on the top 250 and Kagemusha isnt, i was *very* disappointed with Kagemusha

if u have a complaint, read my bio and then see if u still wanna bitch about something

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Jack-the-Gnome 19 years ago

Haha "worsier" made me laugh pretty loud in the middle of class.

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[–] fatrb38 19 years ago

I'm surprised no one ever talks about "Hidden Fortress". That movie was good and it was hillarious too. I think Seven Samurai is overrated. I think both Ran and Hidden Fortress are superior to it.

Why must I feel like that? Why must I chase the cat? Nothin' but the dog in me. -George Clinton

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[–] shhyin 19 years ago

I very much agree with you on seven samurai. It's not that good as to today's standard, Rashomon isn't that great, either. It just has an original "three interpretation" style. I watched most of Kurosawa's movies, and I have to say most of them are great, and that's why he is one of the greatest directors in the world. Sanjuno, Yojimbo, Ran, hidden fortress, Kagemusha, throne of blood are all great samurai movies. They are entertaining, breath-gripping and have deep social meanings. High and low, red beard, and maybe the lower depths are serious movies about hard times in Japanese society. Everyone should see Kurosawa's movies if you are a real fan.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] xcaptaincharismax 13 years ago

funny...I found Hidden Fortress too cartoonish and I don't really see what's so great about it

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] jcreighan 19 years ago

>><most of the battle scenes in Kagemusha have a bunch of silhouettes with bright flashing colors in the background, i mean seriously they completely slacked off in the Kagemusha battle scenes compared to what they did in Ran which is probably why Ran is on the top 250 and Kagemusha isnt, i was *very* disappointed with Kagemusha <<

Akira Kurosawa looked at Kagemusha as a "dress rehearsal" for Ran, therefore the battles, costumes and such aren't as elaborate. Although people try to point this fact out as some sort of weakness of the film's, it does very little to detract from the overall quality.

Besides, if you only care about battle scenes, Kurosawa might not be for you.

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[–] ClydeBickle 19 years ago

Funny when you consider that Seven Samurai contains some of the best battle scenes I've ever seen. The style of Kagemusha was very much a conscious decision, Kurosawa had the financial backing of George Lucas and Francis Ford Coppola behind him, so had he wanted battle scenes like in Ran he could have done it. There is a reason why it's called 'The Shadow Warrior'

"Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!"

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[–] SpidermansUnderstudy 19 years ago

lol if 10,000+ people start using the word 'worsier' it will actually b entered into the Oxford English Dictionary. Or if one of us becomes as famous as, well, Shakespeare and writes it into their work.

I'm up for it, for better of for worsier!

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[–] jcreighan 19 years ago

>>Funny when you consider that Seven Samurai contains some of the best battle scenes I've ever seen. <<

Weigh that against the majority of his filmography, however.

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[–] Ghrifter 19 years ago

Actually from what I read, jcreighan is right. After the movie was done and Kurosawa began filming for Ran, he commented on more than a few occasions that Kagemusha was his dry-run for Ran. The reason he chose to make Kagemusha(he was already working on the script for Ran before he started filming Kagemusha) was because it seemed the cheapest one to make.

Both companies(20th century & Toho) backing him at the time were very sketchy about it, so I'm not sure he could've done Ran had he wanted to at this time. It had been 5 years since he had made a film at all, and 10 since the last Japanese production and that movie had had horrible box-office earnings at the time. Since Lucas owned the rights to The Empire Strikes Back and Fox wanted desperately to put their name on that, Lucas was able to bully the studio into forking over the 2 or 3 million dollars needed for Kagemusha and then having Toho come up with the rest. But I don't think Lucas or Coppola had very much actual money in Kagemusha, they basically told Fox to pay it and said, "Take it out of the money we're gonna make for you later", in essence.

So, to address the question at hand:
Few Kurosawa movies are worsier than others.. they simply caterate to differing tastations.

P.S.- This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated. - Mitch Hedburg

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[–] jungol-1 19 years ago

Seven Samurai doesn't stand up to todays standards!?!...Dude...Seven Samurai CREATED some of todays standards...What standards are you looking for The Last Samurai? The storyline itself stands head over heels over most of the crap that comes out todays, while still realistically dealing with the life and death struggle of a village versus these huge world threateni.....I must have wandered into the Spiderman Boards..let me getr out of here...

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] smith93 19 years ago

Funny when you consider that Seven Samurai contains some of the best battle scenes I've ever seen.

I think that The Seven Samurai is a worthy contender for the greatest film ever made, and I still don't agree with this. If you're talking about the way we see the battle play out, in terms of strategy ect. then yeah, I see where you're coming from. But the actual visual depiction of the combat isn't in itself that spectacular to my eyes. As far as the Kurosawa films I've seen, I'd say RAN's battle scenes are the most powerful and Sanjuro's work the best as exciting action sequences.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Induna 19 years ago

Both films are great. Treat yourself and watch both.

As for comparisons, I think the colours are more spectacular in Kagemusha than in Ran. And I agree the battle scenes are more dramatic in Ran. But as other people have said, the focus was on the 'double', looking from his perspective as the battles raged on in the background, he had to sit there resolute as soldiers around him were getting killed.

If I had to choose I'd say I enjoyed this film over Ran. What I liked about this film was the way the 'double' had to learn the Lord's ways, customs ect.. trying to adapt and the unintentional comedic situations he found himself in.

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[–] SomeLikeImHot 19 years ago

both are great but Ran is a little bit better

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Chwelve 19 years ago

"Kagemusha" is a great movie, but "Ran" is one of the most emotionally powerful films I've seen, and deserves every comparison to "King Lear" that it gets (and then some). A complete, cleansing, tragic, epic, visually stunning and spiritually beautiful catharsis of a film.

CONCLUSION: If a madman puts a gun to your head and tells you you can only see one of these two Kurosawa classics, make it "Ran." If this does not happen, which it most likely will not, why not rent both?

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[–] seraf 19 years ago

Kagemusha is more meditative and slow paced than Ran, with a lot less gore and vengeful plotting. To put in blunt terms: boring.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] hurricanepictures426 18 years ago

I think Kurosawa himself said kagemusha was like dress rehearsal to RAN. Not that that effects my opinion of either, i think both are equally well done and have a hard time deciding which i like better.

All Kurosawa films should be viewed in the movie theaters not at home on your dvd player. Its a different movie completely when you take it in from being in a theater. A few years ago i was able to see Seven Samurai at the film Forum in NYC and i don't think i've ever experienced anything like that while watching a movie in the theater. It was a hundred times better and made a deeper impact on me. I still would rank Seven Samurai not just as my favorite Kurosawa, but as one of the greatest films ever made.

Try to experience them in a theater or at least on a gigantic screen.

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[–] sr_wolfrider 15 years ago

Ran is better but to dismiss Kagemusha as simply being a dress rehersal is completely unwarranted. Kurosawa was passionately involved in the production and desperately wanted to tell this tale.

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[–] sonicinmobius-1 18 years ago

RAN is better.
The Hidden Fortress is too. Go watch that one as well.

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[–] stoopid-3 18 years ago

For me Kagemusha is the better film (hard choice to make though)
Quite simply the story in Kagemusha held me more, when the shadow was viewing the aftermath of battle after he had been cast out, I was nearly in tears. I felt how sorrowful he was.
Both films can stir strong emotions (and what more can you ask of a film?)

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] charleshome 18 years ago

Would wosier be the American version of worsier?

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[–] HemingwayHero 18 years ago

I think that both Kagemusha and Ran are masterpieces, but I prefer Kagemusha.

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[–] saintchanticleer 18 years ago

It's like comparing the films of Michael Curtiz. Everybody knows "Casablanca," and many have seen "The Sea Hawk," but if I tell you "Passage to Marseille" can be held up against those stalwarts (not to mention "The Adventures of Robin Hood" and "Angels With Dirty Faces," you may just shrug.
Take it from me: neither film is better. They're both masterpieces by one of the greatest directors in history.

So check 'em both out!

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[–] Mistelten 18 years ago

I think that this movie was better than RAN. Ran deals with a man who is broken and feels like he has lost everything. Maybe someone who has dealt with madness, the heartbreak of divorce, or losing a child can associate with that better. Kagemusha is the story of a man who has finally found something that he believes in, and the love he develops for Shingen's grandson is so tragic. I also liked Kagemusha because its personal take on a grand story of a famous man, who is dead for most of the movie. Ran is something that the director saw as his own life, and it is very revealing in that way. Kagemusha is more of a story that affects all of the people. To add to that last point, I think that the unbiased and a great counter to the lecture-ish, altruistic messages that prevail in most dramatic period pieces.

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[–] ThatsRightChes 16 years ago

I agree with Mistelten - Kagemusha has characters that we can feel some empathy with. As I have stated on the Ran board - it is the only Kurosawa I regret buying. If Kagemusha is a dress rehearsal for Ran then put it down as another example of when the original is the best.

...and we have a new game today, I think, don't we, Mac?

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