MovieChat Forums > Kagemusha (1980) Discussion > I was wrong about this movie

I was wrong about this movie

posted 14 years ago by j_money77
5 replies | jump to latest

After my first viewing I dismissed it as middle of the pack Kurosawa citing reasons like lack of characterization, bad hollywood score, and little dramatic weight. I just watched it a second time and suddenly see what I was missing.

I was at fault before for criticizing the movie for what is was not, instead of analyzing what it was. It really is a great film and deserves to be ranked as top class Kurosawa along with Ikiru, Seven Samurai, High and Low, Ran and Yojimbo.

My biggest mistake was faulting the movie for not having any "exceptional individuals" that other Kurosawa films have. This was a bad mistake because the movie isn't about individual exceptionalism but is more about sacrificing the self for the greater good, in this instance the perserverance of the Takeda clan.

Nakadi is great as Shingen and his double. His transition from a scoffing thief who chides Shingen and his brother for being merciless murders to a devout member of the Takeda clan is truly a sight to watch.

I still don't think the movie is perfect. There are a couple of scenes that might be cut (the nameless lord who reacts to Shingen's death, the recitation of some Noh poem about "live not being forever" by another lord, the dream sequence could have been shorter). I still think that the score is a bit of a weakness but that didn't bother me as much on the 2nd viewing.

Kagemusha is truly a great and unique movie in the Kurosawa unvierse for its stance on the clan vs. the individual.

[–] Untouchable757 11 years ago

I personally rank Kagemusha as one of my Top 3 favorite Kurosawa films.

1. Seven Samurai
2. Yojimbo
3. Kagemusha

Yes, ahead of Ran.

[–] Strausszek 11 years ago

It's a favourite if mine too. It was the first Kurosawa film I ever saw in full, and in the theatre (had seen some bits in tv screenings before, but never a full K. movie from start to finish) and I was very impressed both by the story and the amazing photography. But it has completely stood the test of time.

[–] nmalouin 9 years ago

"I still don't think the movie is perfect. There are a couple of scenes that might be cut (the nameless lord who reacts to Shingen's death, the recitation of some Noh poem about "live not being forever" by another lord, the dream sequence could have been shorter). I still think that the score is a bit of a weakness but that didn't bother me as much on the 2nd viewing."

The nameless Lord who reacts to Shingen's death was Uesugi Kenshin, Shingen's legendary rival. It is a nudge to rheir rivalty, because the myth goes that they had immense respect for one another. They are as inseperable in Japanese historical narrative as Robert E. Lee and Ulysses Grant in the American Civil War, or Napoleon and Wellington at Waterloo.

The Noh recitation by Oda Nobunaga was his favourite part of Atsumori. He would sing it often at critical moments of his life, when he felt that he was grasping for destiny.

Remember that this movie was made first and foremost for a Japanese audience, who all know the details.

[–] Blueghost 8 years ago

by
j_money77
» Sun Aug 22 2010 16:06:56
IMDb member since August 2005

After my first viewing I dismissed it as middle of the pack Kurosawa citing reasons like lack of characterization, bad hollywood score, and little dramatic weight. I just watched it a second time and suddenly see what I was missing.

I was at fault before for criticizing the movie for what is was not, instead of analyzing what it was. It really is a great film and deserves to be ranked as top class Kurosawa along with Ikiru, Seven Samurai, High and Low, Ran and Yojimbo.

My biggest mistake was faulting the movie for not having any "exceptional individuals" that other Kurosawa films have. This was a bad mistake because the movie isn't about individual exceptionalism but is more about sacrificing the self for the greater good, in this instance the perserverance of the Takeda clan.

Nakadi is great as Shingen and his double. His transition from a scoffing thief who chides Shingen and his brother for being merciless murders to a devout member of the Takeda clan is truly a sight to watch.

I still don't think the movie is perfect. There are a couple of scenes that might be cut (the nameless lord who reacts to Shingen's death, the recitation of some Noh poem about "live not being forever" by another lord, the dream sequence could have been shorter). I still think that the score is a bit of a weakness but that didn't bother me as much on the 2nd viewing.

Kagemusha is truly a great and unique movie in the Kurosawa unvierse for its stance on the clan vs. the individual.

Yeah, I still have issues with this film, but I've come to appreciate it and enjoy it for what it is; a historical drama, which wasn't Kurosawa's strong point.

I still think it's a bit scattered in terms of a cohesive classic Kurosawa cinematic style. We're not getting a lot of deep profound long takes, but rather long takes that are filled with a lot of action and dialogue, and also contain a lot of cutaways (well, a lot of cutaways for a Kurosawa film that is).

This film truly was a laboratory for him, and you get that with all of the different shooting styles and other artistic liberties he took. I'm sure on set or the night before a shoot, or perhaps in preparation, he said to his team "Let's try this..." or "Let me try that..." Because that's kind of what the film feels like.

My one real big complaint is that there was no footage of the big climactic battle, just a lot of footage of the aftermath. I really did feel cheated there, and really disliked the film for a long time because of that.

But, I've since warmed heart to it some.

Merry Saturnalia 

[–] gashousemartin 8 years ago

Just finished my first viewing. Maybe I should give it a second chance, because like you I was a little underwhelmed. Here are the Kurosawa films that I rank above it.
1. Rashomon
2. Throne of Blood
3. Ikiru
4. Ran
5. Seven samurai
6. Sanjuro
7. Yojimbo
8. Kagemusha