TIME TRAVEL

There are two primary schools of thought regarding time travel.

Your ideas, and the theory used by most SciFi films is one.
Either Paradox is created, or a never ending infinite multi-verse keeps splitting off with each "change to the timeline"

Science Fiction prefers this theory because the stories are interesting and twisted what with all the Paradox and contradictions etc...


The Other theory isn't as interesting from a science Fiction writer's point of view. No paradoxes or multiple timestreams etc... to play around with. But while neither theory is proved or disproved, this alternate theory does have provable mathematical evidence to back it up.

A Single timeline. No Paradox.
Try reading up on Novikov's Self-Consistency Principle

Basically, the more likely an event is to cause a paradox, the less likely it is to happen. Even more basically stated, Paradox cannot happen, only events that are self consistent can happen. And there is (though beyond my abilities) mathematical evidence that this is true.

This theory is also in keeping with Occam's razor in being the simplest explanation rather than the infinitely complex perpetual multi-verse theory.

I have mentioned in in multiple other thread but I will try to restate it here in a more simplified form.

Take the shootdown of the two Japanese pilots.

People adhering to the same school of thought regarding time travel as yourself would think that by shooting down these two pilots, they would start a ripple of changes emanating out from the shootdown event, altering history as we already know it (Butterfly effect)

By getting shot down, these two pilots never take part in the raid the next day.
By not taking part in the raid, those sailors they would have killed survive.
By surviving, these US sailors go on to make even further changes as the events of the war now veer onto a different path than the one we knew.
Am I right so far?

WRONG.
This film is a rarity in Science Fiction films. It holds to the single timeline and Novikov's Self-consistency principle.

You can interact with the past, but only in ways that remain "self-consistent".

The Shootdown of the two Japanese remains self consistent with history.

In Real life... The Japanese did have Zeroes scouting ahead of the fleet.

In the films universe, a detailed examination of the Japanese records would have shown two Japanese Zeroes that were scouting failed to return. As there was no alarm raised by American forces, it was presumed the two Zeroes suffered a navigation error and ran out of fuel over the open ocean.

Only now, through the story of the film, we know that rather than running out of fuel trying to find their carriers again, they rant into the Americans and were shot down by the Tomcats. They never did participate in the attack, they always had been shot down by the Tomcats, it's only now that we know that. No History was "changed". No paradox, no butterfly effect.


It's an idea I only came up with after repeated explanations of this very idea on these boards, but the very idea of time paradox itself is fatally flawed.

It presumes (incorrectly) that an event happens one way, until a time traveler goes back and "changes" it to some other event thus altering history.

When a time traveler goes into the past and causes some event. It either happens AT THAT TIME in the past.... or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then there is nothing to alter, time goes on as it always had.

If it DOES happen at that Specific point in time in the past, then it always did happen at that point in time in the past and has always been a part of future histories from that point on, there would be no "previous" event to be altered from, thus there is no "change".
Novikov's self-consistency principle in action.

Thus to the Nimitz crew in 1979, those two missing Zeros had still been shot down in 1941 by Tomcats, even though it was not until next year (1980) that Nimitz goes back in time and does so. Because the events happened IN 1941. and had always been a part of the history from 1941 on to the present (1980). It's just we did not know bout it until they went back in time.

Further proof of this is the Tideman/Owens situation.

Tideman was not someone else UNTIL Owens got left behind in 1941 and then magically he was replaced with Owens as some sort of "alteration" to History.

Even in the beginning of the Film when Lasky goes to see Tideman in the Limo and the driver stopped him for seeing him, Tideman WAS Owens already, had ALWAYS been Owens. That is why Tideman would not allow Lasky to see him yet until after he came back from the trip. Tideman WAS Owens and knew what was to happen because he had already been through it as Owens 40 years earlier(to him personally) even though it was that very same day in 1980.


So back to your post. The problem is not the film. It is YOU trying to interpret the film using a theory that is NOT the correct theory used for this film.
This film follows a different theory and does remain perfectly consistent (pun intended)with that other theory.

The other problem on your part is your holding forth that other theory as if it is the only theory and that more so.. as though it was fact.
It isn't.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

I also feel that if we could go back in time to the past and if we could make changes to what has already happened this could open the door to potentially "catastrophic effects."

Fortunately we seem to be well protected for such potential catastrophe by the actual laws of nature. From what I understand, as a simple layman myself, is that some in the scientific community are involved in the concept of "time travel" but that all such work involves ways of taking "short cuts" from the present to the future. The scientific analysis apparently knows of no possible way that people or things can go from the present back into the past and be functional participants in that past that can interact with those who are already there. And not only is the scientific community not working on such a thing, they also seem to be amused by the general public's fascination with it.

But if we consider "time travel" to mean going back to the past and doing things there, and if we limit "time travel" to that concept, which I think most people tend to do, then that means every time travel movie, etc. has one common element. They are all works of fiction. As fiction the writer can make "time travel" function however he wants without letting scientific facts get in his way, or without unleashing nasty consequences on history.

It also means that there can be different ideas and interpretations as to how this time travel thing actually "works." Since it's all just fiction different interpretations are valid within the context of their own stories.

I've read at least one time travel story where the alteration of events in the past does not have a ripple effect going on forever with more and more past events being changed. Instead there's a dampening effect. If enough time goes by without any further "changes" the effects of those past changes get diluted away and things end up where they would have been anyway without the changes having ever occurred. That was the interpretation in that particular story.

As far as the way most people seem to see it "time travel" must necessarily cause changes in the past. In the case of this movie the concept that probably occupies a lot of people's thinking is this. As time progressed one moment at a time, on Dec. 5 1941 the Nimitz was not there. She couldn't because she hadn't been built yet. Most of the crew of the Nimitz were not there. They couldn't because they hadn't been born yet. As one moment followed another, on Dec. 6 they still weren't there. On Dec. 7 they still weren't there. On Dec. 8 they still weren't there. And on and on it went until years later the men were born and the ship was built. But although they now exist at a later date it still remains a fact that they weren't there in Dec. 1941. And at the beginning of the movie when they had not yet encountered the time storm, it was still a fact that they weren't there in Dec. 1941.

But then they encounter the storm and go back in time. Then by this concept that a lot of people probably have, the past has been changed just by their now being there in Dec. 1941. And any actions they take in Dec. 1941 will equate to even more of the past being changed. But all that is just an interpretation. Write a story where that's how time travel "works" and it's a valid interpretation within that story.

But in the story as written for this movie that's not how time travel "works." As its time progressed one moment at a time, on Dec. 5 1941 the Nimitz and crew were not there. As one moment followed another, as Dec. 6 dawned and progressed they still weren't there. But at some moment before the day was over they were there. The reason they were now there was certainly unconventional, but they were there. Every moment of time beyond that was the "future" and no actions or events of those future moments had yet occurred. So the fact that they were there and anything they subsequently did could not change anything that had already happened. A few hours later the ship and most of the crew were no longer there, again by unconventional means. Beyond that moment the ship and crew, not being there, could not do anything as one moment followed another. Not until they did exist by way of the conventional means of human birth and ship construction.

So at the beginning of the movie when they had not yet encountered the time storm, they were living in a world that had a certain history. In that history Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7 1941. This was a famous event and everyone on the Nimitz undoubtedly knew of it. Another historical event was that there was once an important senator named Samuel Chapman who had disappeared in Dec. 1941. Probably most of the crew had never heard about that, although some of them had. Another historical event was that the day before the Pearl Harbor attack the Japanese sent out two pilots on a scouting mission, and they failed to return. It's likely that no one on the Nimitz, including Cdr. Owens, was aware of that historical event.

Another historical event was that the day before the Pearl Harbor attack the Nimitz and crew appeared by unconventional means and were there for several hours, doing things and being involved with both Sen. Chapman and the two Japanese pilots. Certainly no one on the Nimitz was aware of that historical event. And something else they definitely were not aware of as they sailed toward the time storm in 1980 was the historical fact that some of them died in Dec. 1941. All these things were part of the history of the world as it was at the beginning of the movie. It would have changed the past if they had not gone back in time and done the things that they did.

No, it's not scientific. It can't really happen. It's just an interpretation of how time travel "works." And it's the interpretation that is employed in this particular story.



***
It's easier to be an individual than a god.

Got it, GoldenShellback,

It will take me some time to go thru your post. I have always felt that with traveling back in time, you couldn't make any changes, however minor, since the future is based on the past. Time travel would be like a big card house. Moving just one card could bring down the whole card house.

ENJOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqvdFQE1Jw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Jd1fuwsMg

Best.

It is amusing to read how anal and serious some of the responses are regarding time travel which does not exist. There is no such thing as time travel but some responders are so rigid about all of these time travel "rules". There are no rules, it doesn't exist. You sound ridiculous lecturing how time travel should work or not work. Things happen once, they can never be changed. Time travel doesn't exist. All time travel stories are for entertainment and in the world of make believe anything is possible. You look like a moron trying to explain the "rules" of time travel. The rules about something that doesn't exist and will never exist.

Checkmate!
Deutschland hat die Weltmeisterschaft zum vierten Mal gewonnen! 🇩🇪🇺🇸

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