The Lee Marvin character is a doughboy in WWI and then 24 years later has risin maybe 2 ranks when leading his squad onto the beach in North Africa. Was he a discipline case or something? Was this ever explained in the film?
share promotions were hard to come by between the wars, and a good sargent is harder to find. Being a sargent in the US army was a dream of mine.
as to disapline problem, my dad made Sargent at least 3 times in the 11 months 28 days he was in Korea (52-53). one day he went from pfc to sargent and back by the ebd of the day. he was a good soldier. But as some character in a film said, "he's a fine human being, he just needs someone to throw gfgrenades at him for the rest of his life>"...
I think that was someone talking about Animal Mother in Full Metal Jacket.
share you are correct sir!!!!!
" Of coutse I'm paranoid, everyones trying to kill me. " Garak ds9
In the novelization of the film, that Samuel Fuller also wrote, some backstory is given on the Sergeant. It's explained that he's turned down any further promotion past the grade of E-5, and has also turned down Officer's Candidate School.
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If you read any of the materials about Fuller's movie and novel, you'll find out that the Sergeant doesn't want to get a promotion. He only wants to lead a rifle squad.
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Officers are usually those who graduated from the academy or at least, possess college degrees.
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"Class" as in upper and lower. And "Working class" was very real in the years before the end of WW II. It was not at all unusual for a Non-com to hold the same rank for years on end. Almost NO ONE except the Marines promoted "Mustangs" i.e. officers from the ranks.
An ex-draftee who rose to Captain during Nam...
Not always true during war-time.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
May be in peace time but field promotions do take place from the ranks to "OFFICER CLASS" and they are far more useful.!
shareA Gunny Sergeant is a far deal greater rank as sergeants go than just a regular Sergeant in the Army.
Two different branches of the military. A Gunnery Sergeant as 3 stripes down, and 2 up. A Sergeant in the Army has 3 stripes down.
Not the same rank.
'...the ultimate ending, is war itself.'
jesus christo man, it's three up and two down for gunny!
sharehttp://img347.imageshack.us/img347/5578/gunnerysergeant1zx.jpg - that's what it is, and what I said.
from 1959 to present.
'...the ultimate ending is: war itself.'
Perhaps you're confusing that what I said as being what's on top and what's on bottom. Not at all what I said.
The "three" are on top, and the "two" are on bottom. Perhaps that's more to your intellect.
'...the ultimate ending is: war itself.'
well for those of us with small intellects that actually SERVED in the Marine Corps, never once, in 6 years of service, have i ever heard the stripes in the rank structure described in that way. "three up and two down" becuase the three stripes on top are pointing UP, and the two stripes on the bottom are pointed DOWN. but i guess that was just the unique way that my drill instructors and the subsequent TWO different infantry battalions that i served with used. whatever dude.
2/5 Echo
Snakepit, Ramadi
Or known as 3 chevrons and two rockers
shareWow you spell like an idiot.
sharealso...just for kicks...
the way the military works...
non-commissioned soldiers really only rise so high. In the modern era, it's well-nigh unheard of that a soldier joins as a private and ends up a general.
The officer class recieves different training, and jumps in at lieutenant, not private. These are the men who as carreer soldiers retire as majors, colonels, and generals.
It's a common theme in the military (and movies about the military), that the lieutenants in tacit command of a green unit are often unexperienced soldiers who depend on their grizzdled non-coms (sgt's) to do the moment to moment leadership of their men. That's not to say that officers are useless...if well suited for the role, the training they get utilizes auxiliary support, and saves men's lives. But the non-coms are often the veteran "grunts" with prior combat experience who've earned their way through the ranks of the common soldier.
2 reasons...
first off, promotions did not come fast...
but more importantly... its very possible that he was not in the Army for 24 yrs... up until the end of the Vietnam War, the vast majority of soldiers only served DURING the war in which they fought... Contrary to popular belief, the US has not always had a large standing army...
In one of the DVD documentaries they explain it. It's along the lines of he could have been promoted, but had no interest in it and wanted to remain with the common soldiers
shareIf it happened today he would have been a Sgt. Maj. or at least a SFC.
shareAnyone think it's weird that all four of the main characters were Privates throughout the whole war? I find this odd, especially when the replacements come, they are the veterans. I find it odd that none of them were promoted to PFC or Corporal during that whole time.
shareDon't find it odd at all.
Don't forget that you need to understand this in the context of the time in which it took place, NOT based on your own frame of reference and experiences.
During the period refered to as "Between the Wars", which were the 1920's & 1930's promotions were not as they are today.
There was no, "move up or move out" policy as there is today, or has been for the past 25 years or so.
During World War 2 rank was often imposed upon men due to attrition, however this was most often temporary refered to as 'brevret' during the 19th century.
Further, during WW2 men were allowed to turn down promotions and this was generally not frowned upon and frankly the 'vets' were needed to share lessons learned to the new recruits as more often than not Field Grade Officers and Senior Noc-Commissioned Officers were fresh from state-side schools and lacked combat experience.
1/505 LRSU 81-85
My father served as a private in the Second World War. He volunteered for the duration of the war, returning from New Guinea to Australia in October 1945. Most soldiers were the same.
shareAnyone think it's weird that all four of the main characters were Privates throughout the whole war? I find this odd, especially when the replacements come, they are the veterans. I find it odd that none of them were promoted to PFC or Corporal during that whole time.
If it happened today he would have been a Sgt. Maj. or at least a SFC.
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It did happen today. I went to Iraq as a forty-two year old private [with five years of prior service as a paratrooper]. They wanted to make me a sergeant and I turned it down (a hard thing to pull off without inciting the powers that be) several times. My fellow soldiers, the NCO's, and the officers considered me a good soldier, but odd as a person. Discipline was not an issue, as I firmly believed in military hierarchy and military tradition (what little was left from my younger days). I am now a civilian again and am proud to have participated in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
p.s. twenty-seven years ago I found the advanced age of Marvin's character in the film to be questionable. Now I better understand it.
It's unrealistic. He could have been promoted from buck to staff sergeant and still been a squad leader. In fact, by 1943, most squad leaders were staff sergeants.
shareHere's something to think about: what about the four privates - Zab, Griff, Vinci, and Johnson? They never got promoted past E-1 or E-2? These guys must've been far worse discipline cases than the Sarge would have ever been!
Think about it ;)
How about they represented all WWII infantrymen? Therefore the ranks stayed the same.
shareI'm pretty sure the Lee Marvin character was based on an actual enlisted member of the 1st Infantry Division in World War II who had also served as an enlisted man in the Big Red One in World War I. The only difference was that the actual soldier was a Master Sergeant (three up and three down, as far as stripes and rockers go) in WWII, not a buck sergeant squad leader like the Marvin character.
The Marvin character was (quite obviously) a squad leader in the film so that he would have immediate command of, and interaction with, the young privates in the squad in combat.
Maybe he did not want to go any higher. A friend of mine became a corporal in stores after being wounded in Vietnam when he was 21 and was still a corporal when he retired in his fifties.
shareYes. That's what the film implies.
"Attention! Monster ashore at Manhattan Beach, heading to the amusement area."
As has been explained already "The Sergeant" wanted nothing more than to be a rifle squad leader and had turned down promotion opportunities.
But as others have also commented it seems very strange that all four privates who served under him never received any promotions at all during the entire war. While they were obviously there to serve as the "grunts" serving with the Sergeant it's just unrealistic to believe they'd make it that far without at least making PFC or Corporal.
As has been explained already "The Sergeant" wanted nothing more than to be a rifle squad leader and had turned down promotion opportunities.
But as others have also commented it seems very strange that all four privates who served under him never received any promotions at all during the entire war. While they were obviously there to serve as the "grunts" serving with the Sergeant it's just unrealistic to believe they'd make it that far without at least making PFC or Corporal.
They do not all become generals!!
Its that man again!!
No poop Sherlock.
"Toto, I've [got] a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
How do we know that "The Sergeant" stayed on active duty for the entire interwar period? It's entirely possible he had left the Army in 1919/1920 and did not return until 1940/1941 or perhaps stayed in the Reserves or the National Guard.
share" ... many of the paratroopers who had been in the service since 1942 remained privates until the war ended in 1945 and continued to hold the rank until they were discharged in 1946. It wasn't uncommon for soldiers to have served their entire military stint during World War II and never gone beyond the rank of private."
Just where are you getting such information? I hope not from a TV show but that's what you're referencing with "Band of Brothers" which was authored by the hyperbole specialist Stephen Ambrose (Even Ambrose's books can't be trusted).
During World War II, promotion from private to Pfc wasn't automatically done after a given period of time but I can't think of an example where someone was drawing combat duty and not promoted after a year. I'd like to see you give some examples of soldiers in the 101st that spent 4 years as a private.
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No, it was never really explained. In way of an explanation, I think Kipling might have said it best, "Single men in barracks don't grow into plaster saints." Having served with a lot of "lifers", I've noticed that many of the older ones have experienced demotions as well as promotions. It is said that, "...the chiefs run the Navy.", meaning that they are undoubtedly the best at what they do, but thay are often subject to behavior 'lapses', of a celebratory nature or whatever. Alcohol abuse was formerly much more common and accepted that it is today. If you have ever seen Clint Eastwood as "Gunny Tom Highway" you'll know what I mean!
In World War II in particular, battlefield promotions were very common-something that likely doesn't happen very often today. Demotions were the opposite where a man's stripes could be cut away for lapses in expected behavior. Promotions in rank today are more often tied to tests and time-in-grade rather than battlefield bravery.