MovieChat Forums > Nosferatu - Phantom der Nacht (1979) Discussion > Nasty production detail concerning the r...

Nasty production detail concerning the rats used in the film

posted 14 years ago by lichtetred
34 replies | jump to latest

I just saw an interview with a former biologist (now a writer), Maarten t Hart, on dutch television. T Hart was asked was asked by Herzog to convince the Delft (the dutch town where part of the film was shot) municipality that it wouldn't be dangerous to release an amount of 10.000 rats in the city... T Hart didn't succeed in convincing the municipality so the rat scenes where shot in the town of Schiedam.

Now... the rats used in the film came from Hungary and had to be transported to holland by truck, on a three day trip in which the animals didn't receive any food or water. Naturally, a lot of the animals didn't survive (the ones that did resorted to cannibalism). Once arrived, Herzog wanted the rats to be painted black (because they were all white lab rats), this was done via a process in which the rats where submerged in boiling hot water, of course killing a lot of them...

I still think Nosferatu the Vampyre is a great film, but I found this detail pretty shocking..

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] jeff5102 14 years ago

No, the were meant to be black. However, as soon as the surviving lab rats came to their senses, they started to lick themselves clean, removing most of the paint. Thus, the rats ended up grey instead of black.

Anyway, because of this treatment of those rats, Maarten 't Hart quit the production.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] alphachimp 14 years ago

I'm not sure if any of you noticed, but...

THEY WERE RATS!!!

Overall, I'd say the human race has done rats more favors than the vermin have returned.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] WarpedRecord 14 years ago

Are you implying that rats wouldn't try to save us had the situation been reversed?

Oh well, they'd all be dead by now anyway.

[–] Joebody 13 years ago

Eh, Herzog is pretty much constantly abusing animals.

I just accept it.

[–] WarpedRecord 13 years ago

Animals, actors, whatever. He makes great films.

[–] franzkabuki 13 years ago

"Herzog is pretty much constantly abusing animals".

And this piece of knowledge is based on what evidence exactly?

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] groundcontrol_j 13 years ago

Abraham Lincoln would be dead by now. It's not about whether they'd be alive or dead. And we shouldn't try to compare ourselves with a creature that has a tiny brain (of course they wouldn't try to to save us, don't be obtuse). Unlike rats we have the capacity for empathy and frankly "humanity." It's not about our hierarchy on the food chain. It's not even about killing creatures for art. It's about TORTURING creatures for art and profit. The original poster was referring to starvation, cannibalism, and boiling them alive. That's akin to putting a magnifying glass over an insect on a hot day. If that were done simply for the pleasure of it, it's considered sociopathic... ie having no compassion for life. You wouldn't even do that for the sake of getting rid of vermin, however this was done purely for a scene in a movie. And if what the original poster says is true, then it was truly inhumane. I suspect this is why Hart left the production.

[–] Kammurabi 12 years ago

What if the rats had signed waivers forms before filming? In their little rat scratchwriting.

Jobs for rats are fairly hard to come by and many of them were able to provide food for their families by performing in this movie.

.

[–] dustypistol 9 years ago

I love this comment. So matter-of-fact and tongue-in-cheek. Nice.

[–] dreamer.ice 12 years ago

An insect won't feel no pain, no matter how many magnifying glasses you find.

[–] BrainGremlin 12 years ago

While I would admittedly care MORE if it was done to dogs, I don't care how "insignificant" an animal is; to torture it is absolutely not ethical in any way. Killing is one thing -- it'll be much too dead to feel it -- but to induce severe pain upon the defenseless little thing... This is wrong. And for mere entertainment, no less? No, not just for entertainment, but for the ever-so-slight refinement of said entertainment? How the hell can you justify that? "Hm... it looks okay, but we're not quite there. This doesn't suit my vision. Let's cook the bastards alive and this will be a superior movie." I hope none of the crew liked what was going on.

By the way, did you know rats are smart enough to learn sit and such tricks on command? You might attribute that to instinct more so than intelligence (association with the trick and food by which it may survive), but I'd argue the line is blurred. We too do a lot of things for basic purposes.

You're probably right with the last statement, though that's obviously a completely unfair assessment... And besides, if we're gonna play by the same rules, these "vermin" hardly ever killed us for experiments, nor do I think a rat ever imprisoned a person. Granted, I don't think we've brought plagues to rats, but in their case the spreading of disease is hardly an act of intention.

---
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

[–] bart-229 10 years ago

Yes, that certainly justifies our cruelty to other creatures. And they are only vermin by reference to us, not on their own. Open up your mind.

[–] the_zookeeper 9 years ago

Rats make wonderful pets. They are highly intelligent, are capable of developing bonds with human beings, and can be used as therapy animals. My daughter, for instance, had a therapy rat, a double rex albino rat named Raoul. He was the sweetest little creature, and he adored my daughter. She was devastated when he died.

Even if we did not experience how wonderful rats can be, I would be a tad appalled at your comment. I am appalled any time that human beings treat animals with neglect. We tote ourselves as the most advanced animal on the planet. One would think an advanced life form should treat those under its power with compassion.

The gene pool could use a little chlorine......

[–] skiop 9 years ago

You're obviously a Nosferatu. Humans should have compassion for other creatures and show compassion.

[–] pater-tenebrarum 8 years ago

It is easy to kill a rat; it is far more difficult to make one.

[–] JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies 13 years ago

What I'd be more concerned with (although not at all for my evaluation of the film), and what I was expecting your post to be about, was how many rats managed to get loose in the areas where they were shooting. I couldn't care less if some died for the film. It would suck if they were responsible for a bunch of rats infesting the town, though.

http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

[–] przgzr 13 years ago

Exactly, this was my first thought when the rats on the town square appeared on the screen. There are so many cities where the number of rats multiply exceeds the number of humans, and giving them a chance to spread along the city streets, form new colonies... frightening, not the way that old stories like Dracula try to scare us, but frightening because it is a reality!

[–] Pbbgvrf_Eng_Frzra 13 years ago

"T Hart was asked was asked by Herzog to convince the Delft (the dutch town where part of the film was shot) municipality that it wouldn't be dangerous to release an amount of 10.000 rats in the city... "

I know it's wrong to laugh considering the context of the story but I couldn't help myself considering the slew of other crazy ancedotes that circulate regarding Werner Herzog. If true, that was pretty poor judgement and character of Herzog to encourage the mistreatment of those animals especially since he supposedly decided not to release one of his early films 'Game in the Sand' because he felt scenes of a group of children and a chicken 'went too far'. I imagine their fate as lab rats wouldn't have been any more rosy, but still.

[–] princesstinymeat 12 years ago

Ugh. I've never been much of a Herzog fan (aside from Aguirre), and this nasty detail pretty much seals the deal.

[–] teoalcantara 11 years ago

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. Why the rats would have to be 'boiled' to get painted in the first place? Also, if they were paying for those rats it would be stupid to let them starve and eat each other, like throwing money in the trash. Not to mention the animal protection associations, I'm sure the production would need to be supervised.

[–] lombano 11 years ago

It seems a bit unlikely:

-Rats aren't cheap, at least not lab rats. It would be pretty stupid to let large numbers starve, when feeding them is cheap compared to buying them. Of course, there are protocols to keep caged lab rats watered and fed at a modest cost.
-The rats we see on screen seem well-fed.
-Dyeing them in boiling water would be incredibly stupid, when ink and room-temperature water would be cheap and effective and rats, who can swim, aren't afraid of room-temperature water.

[–] jeff5102 11 years ago

Well, it is always plausible to assume that Werner Herzog was stupid when he bought and dyed those rats, while the well fed rats look that way because they ate the others.

There is no problem in that.

[–] lombano 11 years ago

"Well, it is always plausible to assume that Werner Herzog was stupid when he bought and dyed those rats..."

And nobody said "Gee, why do you need boiling water?" or "why don't you just use ink or food colouring or watercolor paint (all of which work fine in cold water)?" They can't all have been too stupid to think of these things.

"the well fed rats look that way because they ate the others."

They would've had to be starving in the first place to try to eat another rat (did they gain weight back that fast?), and in any case rats can and will fight (there are varieties of rats that can hold their own in a fight with a housecat) - the survivors would not have emerged unscathed yet the rats we see look healthy and well-fed, not bitten all over the place.

[–] GameraMothraGodzilla 11 years ago

This better not be true.

No one in their right mind would ride on a buggy driven by Klaus Kinski.

[–] Dr_Clitterhaus 9 years ago

It's not. It's all *beep*