How much courage does it take to walk out on your kid?
That sure shut her up.
shareYes that was a powerful line that needed to be said. The staunch defenders of this horrible mother needed to hear it as well.
share
MovieChat Forums > Kramer vs. Kramer (1979) Discussion > How much courage does it take to walk ou...
I don't think you're being fair to the mother. She was really troubled at that time, and said it best herself: "at the time of leaving, she had no idea what she was going to do or how she's going to live". How would taking a child with you at that time be responsible or better than leaving him with his father ?
shareShe didn't just move out. She abandoned them. There is a big difference. She could have moved out and kept in physical contact and visited with her son if she was incapable of caring for him by herself. She did not do this though. She completely walked out on all her responsibilities. What kind of parent does that?
shareYou can't judge people as if you aren't one of them and as if you're incapable of being a human who can make mistakes. Moreover, she was clearly a disturbed person and an imbalanced character.
shareShe walked out on her kid. I think that deserves harsh judgment.
shareSo being psychologically disturbed for some time means walking out on your kid? She had to go to a psychiatrist and sort many things out. You may call her unbalanced but do not judge her sense of responsibility and the toughness of her life (being psychologically disturbed + a husband who only cared about his own dreams and ambitions) if you can't imagine yourself in the same situation please.
shareI never said she was unbalanced. I think that's a copout. WHile she was supposedly psychologically disturbed she was also working on her career and seeing another man. And that's all fine, but she never even tried to contact the kid the whole time and left him in the dust without even trying to explain it to the kid. She just bailed. I do judge her sense of responsibility because that is not being responsible at all. Parents break up and that's part of life, but the way she did it is nothing to be commended about.
shareWhile she was supposedly psychologically disturbed she was also working on her career and seeing another man. And that's all fine, but she never even tried to contact the kid the whole time and left him in the dust without even trying to explain it to the kid. She just bailed. I do judge her sense of responsibility because that is not being responsible at all. Parents break up and that's part of life, but the way she did it is nothing to be commended about.
Exactly!!! To be mentally close to a breakdown is one thing. I can even understand that one. Feeling your kid is better off without you is even understandable (if dealing, again, with someone not thinking rationally).
But she didn't walk away for a week or even a month. She LEFT FOR A YEAR & A HALF!
Add to that the sadistic, downright vicious letter she writes to her own young son, telling him basically that she has other things to DO now, than be his Mom!
Ted was no angel either, but at least he always took care of them & DID NOT walk out on his son.
Joanna didn't deserve a family, she was a selfish nasty woman.
I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus.
Didn't he discover America?
Penfold, shush. share
That's exactly how I felt. I've also posted in other threads about how sickening I thought that letter was about how she needed to find something more interesting to do than be a mother. It's just hard to imagine how people can defend her character in this whole scenario.
shareLOL. That's how you see Ted? He was bringing home the bacon. He was putting food in their mouths.
Jesus. Women like you are so spoiled, entitled and selfish.
"WAH! WAH! What about my dreams?! Who cares about the future of my child? All I care about is my career hopes and dreams!"
Women like you aren't mothers. You're babysitters.
Joanna Kramer, was spoiled, selfish, self-entitled and possibly even narcissistic. She would have been used to getting what she wanted and when she hit the big wide world and it didn't pander to her like Mummy and Daddy did and treat her like she was 'special', she couldn't cope. Her aloofness, was likely conditioned onto her also.
She was a woman with low self-worth and thought she needed a man to boost her, yet I don't think she could really understand or connect with them. The novel explains her better; but I would have to reread to recall more about her. I wonder, if she had a daughter and not a son, would she have felt the same way about Ted and her feelings of motherhood towards Billy, on her initial walk out? I don't think it would have happened. She couldn't cope with the strong, empowering male presence around her.
Damn, man. That was profound. Thank you for adding so much to what I said.
You're right. Both Ted and Joanna weren't exactly low class citizens. I didn't read the book. But, Joanna seemed far too comfortable with the lifestyle Ted was affording her. She didn't know what it meant to really struggle or else, she would or should have had more appreciation for what Ted was doing and accomplishing at work.
Like I said, Ted is not represented in the film as a really bad man. He has tunnel vision but damn it if we all haven't experienced that once in our lives. But, he wasn't so blind, arrogant and stupid that he was completely ignoring Joanna. He stopped to hear her out when she threatened to leave. That's all she had to do. Scare him. But, she didn't even want to put that kind of time and effort into saving this relationship. That's a sign of a very self-entitled and narcissistic person. He's been slaving away to bring home the bacon. He isn't disloyal or abusive and she knows that. But, she won't give him a chance to be a better husband?? WTF is that??
I'm sure any woman who is playing the primary breadwinner would react just like Ted if her husband of so many years just decided to walk out, leaving a baby girl behind unattended. It's the same thing.
A lot of women today are just like Joanna. I wish more people would watch this movie. They may learn something.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Re-posting similar, after some ugly troll reported and had 2 messages deleted.
A lot of women today are just like Joanna. I wish more people would watch this movie. They may learn something.
_______________________
Many fanboys of APOCALYPSE NOW, would have liked to have seen it win picture—I am an admirer also—Kramer vs Kramer, was still a worthy winner though and it covers issues and themes, that are still relevant today. Ted experiences trials and tribulations in the book, that the film didn't cover. Picked it up second hand for a few bucks and couldn't put it down.
Joanna appears to sail through it all so much easily, after she claimed she found herself. It's like she was punishing her husband, for possessing certain qualities that she didn't have and for being something she wasn't.....namely male. She was Cold, envious, narcissistic, self-serving and self-absorbed and I really don't feel, that someone like Joanna should have even been a mother. share
I wish I could remember what the hell I wrote. I can't believe we can't share our thoughts and feelings on this stupid site.
share'You can't judge people as if you aren't one of them and as if you're incapable of being a human who can make mistakes. Moreover, she was clearly a disturbed person and an imbalanced character.'
--------------------
You can never judge anyone unless you experience the very same thing they do? There's a difference between being disturbed and not having an innate bond with your child. So, if we're not a narcissist, we can't judge the actions of a narcissist? Sure we can, and we all do. If Joanna was man who needed to "find himself", your sentiments would change, I imagine
If Joanna was man who needed to "find himself", your sentiments would change, I imagine
_________
But Joanna was a poor put upon female, who had been given the short shaft from the men, her entire life. They never supported her or gave her what she wanted. She finally stood tall and took a stance and used her special privileges, free passes and self-entitlements for being female, to wage a deserved retribution and punishment on her husband and son. What a generous, wholehearted, kind and loving lady she was.
'to wage a deserved retribution and punishment on her husband and son'.
-----------------
I'm sure that wasn't in her head consciously, but the result. Here's the thing: we have this notion that women are natural maternal creatures, NOT always. We see this every time we turn on the news. Do people read the news on a daily basis? One woman I knew even admitted in a classroom full of students: "I don't have a maternal bone in my body"
I'm sure that wasn't in her head consciously, but the result.
_________
Due to her selfishness and self-entitlements, she victimized Ted and Billy to a certain extent, as well. Play the 'victim', you need a 'victim'. I have rated Joanna Kramer, in my top 5 movie villains.
'Due to her selfishness and self-entitlements, she victimized Ted and Billy to a certain extent, as well. Play the 'victim', you need a 'victim'. I have rated Joanna Kramer, in my top 5 movie villains.'
-----------------
I agree with you, but my point is that a self-entitled selfish person doesn't always know that's what they are, unless they are a liar or sociopath. These types of people are best kept at a distance.
....my point is that a self-entitled selfish person doesn't always know that's what they are, unless they are a liar or sociopath.
___________
So if someone like Joanna Kramer isn't a sociopath, yet may not be aware that she is self-entitled or selfish, what is she then or what disorder would she possibly possess? Narcissism, could appear to be the forerunner; but would it have actually been a personality disorder with her? Her spoiled upbringing, would have allowed her to get used to having what she wanted and possibly even getting her own way.
She wanted to empower herself and be independent, yet decided this after she already had a child and had a good man for a husband, who did support and provide for them both. Even if Ted wasn't busy working and had been able to spend more time with Joanna and Billy, would she still have felt the same way? There is no pleasing some people.
Sorry, I suppose what I've been saying goes without saying. If you told a loved one or a friend "you're self-centered", they would just reply "no, I'm not". How do you define that? People are just selfish (self-aware, or not )
sharePeople are just selfish (self-aware, or not)
_____________
So the selfishness and self-centeredness, is an inherent part of the personality and for someone like Joanna Kramer, it is more pronounced. It can get used as a survival technique, at the expense of how others may be affected by their actions, as long as they get what they want. No self-awareness of 'genuine' concern or care, is brought into the equation. This must be NPD.
' This must be NPD'.
-----
I don't know if what Joanna did was due to a certain psych disease, which can have a vague interpretation; Call it arrogance, if you will.
More simply, I think women in general value a mother more than a father as a parent.
Call it arrogance, if you will.
__________
Or self-serving, but this likely goes hand in hand with inordinate arrogance I suppose. Joanna was not a monster; but she appeared to lack some sort of warmth or generosity in her character. She achieved what she wanted, in her independence from Ted and Billy and then decided that she wanted back, 1\2 of what she walked out on, sometime later and felt entitled to it.
She was the mother; but also admitted to Ted, that she was no good for Billy. Only to come to a similar realization, at the denouement, after game playing and huge expense. The lawyers, were the biggest beneficiaries here. This woman, didn't really know what she wanted.
Joanna may not have realized how hard being a single parent is, even though her reason was that the son wanted/needed to be with his father.
in case you didn't see my edited comment:
More simply, I think women in general value a mother more than a father as a parent.
More simply, I think women in general value a mother more than a father as a parent.
___________
Is this just a societal conditioning though? From my own pov, I could say my father would have been useless, if my mother wasn't around; but that doesn't mean that men aren't AS capable. It could also be a generational thing and many father's I have known, who are my generation, do the same as the mother. This was a 70's story, yet proved Ted was just as capable.
'is this just a societal conditioning though? From my own pov, I could say my father would have been useless, if my mother wasn't around; but that doesn't mean that men aren't AS capable.'
------------
There's no question that men are just as capable, but women may not think so. I know my mother views the father on a secondary level. It probably is instilled in women because they carried the child (maybe it can't be helped)
It probably is instilled in women because they carried the child (maybe it can't be helped)
_____________
The point you brought up earlier, because you are female, doesn't mean you are necessarily maternal. Carrying a child, due to a seed being planted by the male and the female bearing and birthing the child, is only a part of their natural physiology. That can then be used as 'special' privilege or a need to feel superior over men, because they can't give birth. Being loving and caring and nurturing, is not a part of a biological function, therefore women do not necessarily have the edge over men in this department.
[deleted]
I still say as soon as we made everything automated, when we reached the point where men were unnecessary to improve or sustain society, we basically screwed ourselves out of happiness. Only when women knew what their strengths and limitations were, only when they knew that nature is the enemy were they able to actually, genuinely love, appreciate and respect their men. Today, they have it so goddamn easily, they make up sh!t just to fuel themselves and their own vanity. It's all in The Manipulated Man by Esther Villar. That's a wise lady.
And the irony is because they're not having to accomplish everything on their own (sewing, cooking, cleaning, cleaning out the outhouse, protecting themselves from nature while managing their own stores, etc), these women don't really know how strong or capable they really are.
Joanna may not have realized how hard being a single parent is......
________________
So if that were to be a 'truism' about her character, she was then acknowledging that she wasn't as capable or as strong as Ted and wouldn't cope as well. Billy needing Ted more, was just another excuse.
'Billy needing Ted more, was just another excuse.'
-----------------
But I don't want to rewrite the script if it isn't true.
Well, responsibility - like parenthood, takes a degree of selflessness, because you will have to put yourself, your wants, your desires, your future, even your own personal thoughts and feelings aside for someone else.
shareI doubt women like you ever take the side of the man. But, men do see, understand and appreciate the side of women in these cases.
shareIt doesn't take any courage. What it does take is cowardice.
shareThe problem is, if you think it takes courage for her to walk out, then you'd have to think it took even MORE courage to walk out on the kid.
IF you think it takes courage to leave at all, that is.
The funny thing is everyone likes to come from the perspective that men are always at fault. Every offense or bad feeling a woman has is due to the actions of men.
What a crock!
It takes no courage to walk out on a kid. I could not believe her sister said it took courage to walk away.
shareThat wasn't her sister
shareYou want to know what takes courage...doing the right thing, the hard thing, the unselfish thing when it's the last thing you want to do. Staying is what would have taken courage, like the lawyer asked her, did he beat her? beat his child? not provide for them? cheat on her? She was a coward, plain and simple....and you know how she ultimately admitted to it? by not taking her child when she was awarded custody...because she knew she was the lesser person/parent.
shareMaybe she had courage to finally admit her own weakness in the end. But goddamn. You're a coward if you don't fight for your child. You're a coward if you don't stand up for yourself in your marriage. If you just walk on people who trust you and depend on you to be there, especially your child, you are a coward.
Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin.
You want to know what takes courage...doing the right thing, the hard thing, the unselfish thing when it's the last thing you want to do. Staying is what would have taken courage.....
___________________
For Joanna, staying wasn't an option though and she did comment she would have gone out the window if she did stay. Being a wife to Ted and a mother to Billy just wasn't what she was able to deal with. She made a mistake in her life that she couldn't really undo; but being the self-absorbed and even narcissistic personality that she was, she had to do what was best for her, not Ted or Billy.
While it may have taken courage for her to walk out on her husband and son from her own limited selfish perspective, where her true colors represented themselves, is when she wanted back half of what she walked out in the first place. She had every right to want to see her son and there would have been no doubt that she didn't love him; but for someone like Joanna, love would have been conditional and strings would have been attached. She was self-serving. She put Ted and even Billy through an emotional and fiscal wringer, only to come to the realization that she didn't really want what she thought she wanted to begin with. She only wanted to see if she could get her way. I hope she paid Ted back. 😄
Don't eat the whole ones! Those are for the guests. 🍪