MovieChat Forums > Die Blechtrommel (1980) Discussion > Is this film legal to buy?

Is this film legal to buy?


It said in the trivia that this film had been banned in the United States. If that's so, then why does Amazon.com have it for sale? I would like to know if this film is legal to buy or are there still penalties for purchasing it?

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films can't actually be banned anymore because rating and upholding the ratings are strictly optional thus making it's sale legal.

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This film was shown on Channel 4 in the UK in the 80's (with the infamous red triangle in the corner)so I can't really see how it could be banned!

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Yes it is legal to buy now. They finally determined that it wasn't child porn, which it most certainly isn't! There's very little nudity in the scenes with Oskar and Maria, and everything they do depict is all in the name of artistic expression and staying true to the book.

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i think whoever banned it in the first place is crazy. oskar and maria are both supposed to bew teenagers, it's jsut that oskar decided to stop growing early. and the actor was a midget, not a baby.

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acctually oscar was not a midget, he was an eleven year old boy. but banning it was absolutely ridiculous. a great movie!

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It was only banned in Oklahoma City I heard. I saw it on 20/20.

"You're the man now dog!"

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So im from germany and i dont have the litest idea why this masterpiece shall be illegal in AMerica. In Germany it is one of the most respected films ever an i dont see any reason to bann it from your tvs. Can somebody explain it to me

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It's not illegal in America, but some people saw it and thought it was child pornography because of the love scenes between Oskar and Maria. But it isn't banned here, because there's absolutely no reason for it to be.

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Why was it banned or supposedly banned in the first place?

"Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood." www.tarantino.info

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I'm not defending the idiots in OK who tried to ban this, but I can see their point. Under American law (German, too, no doubt), it is flatly illegal to make a child do sexual things. Even if you're making a serious and artistic film, it's still illegal to do that to the child. To discourage this crime, American law makes it illegal to possess any film or photos of someone actually abusing a child; that's meant to dry up the market for child porn.

"Die Blechtrommel" is not pornography, but there is one shot that's a bit edgy: in the beach cabin when David Bennent (aged about 11) sticks his face into Katharina Thalbach's pubic hair. I'm sure that in the context, as all the people involved assure us, there was no harm done to David. But if it happened in another context, we would all call it child-abuse.

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It has never been illegal in the US. It was shown in movie theaters way back in '79 or '80 and is available on DVD. I just rented it from Netflix.

Someone on this forum said it had been banned from being shown in theaters in Oklahoma. Well, you know, that's the south, it's not a country-wide problem.

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Not only that, I saw it on cable in the US uncut (HBO or Showtime) before broadcasting censorship got more conservative & later edited (Bravo) back in the day. I don't think American TV will ever be as bold and permissive as Europe especially in the Heartland Bible Belt but yes it's legal to buy in Region 1 DVD (someone can confirm for Oklahoma). About the source, you're not going to find the book in too many high school reading lists like it used to be anymore. The morality police and censors are busy cutting and banning tons of other trash that passes for art & literature these days.

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the director's commentary on the dvd makes it sound as if the actor playing oskar did have some kind of growth problem (ie, he was a midget). However, once he reached adulthood, he started to grow and became a normal-sized person.

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And don't forget that midget is generally considered to be a degenerative word. Calling them 'little people' as they do themselves is much more appropriate.

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I had seen it on one of the 'premium' channels on cable TV. Ther scene in question wasn't particularly racy.

Simulating sex with a minor under 16 is illegal in America, as is any sex scene or still photo with someone under 16 real life; thus all tapes involving Tracy Lords that she made before age 16 are contraband in the United States.

One essential part of the definition of illegal pornography requires that the book or movie have "no redeeming value". The Tin Drum has redeeming value as a setting of a recognizable piece of literature, a classic anti-war novel.

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brower8 writes:

One essential part of the definition of illegal pornography requires that the book or movie have "no redeeming value". The Tin Drum has redeeming value as a setting of a recognizable piece of literature, a classic anti-war novel.


This is true in most instances. The late Supreme Court Justice William Brennan created the three-prong test for pornography, which is that sexually explicit material is pornographic if it:

Appeals to the prurient interest
(i.e. is intended primarily to cause sexual arousal)

Violates contemporary community standards

Lacks redeeming social, artistic or political value

This test makes for a definition of pornography which is narrow, because any material which fails even one of these tests is not pornographic.

For example, a close-up shot of genitalia in a medical textbook is not obscene, either because it is not intended to arouse, or because it has social value.

An almost-identical photo in a pornographic magazine might fail the test, and be considered pornographic. So context can be important.

(A good source of historical info and literary gossip: Edward de Grazia's Girls Lean Back Everywhere: The Law of Obscenity and the Assault on Genius. The court decision which found William S. Burroughs' Naked Lunch not obscene has--effectively though not explicitly--ended the era of censorship of the written word. Visual images, however, remain more contentious.)

However, the above-listed three-prong test probably does not apply to The Tin Drum.

Legal precedent dating back to the late '70s has determined that child pornography is in a category by itself. Where minors are involved, the usual definition of pornography does not matter. If a film satisfies the legal definition of kiddie porn, then it is illegal regardless of, say, any redeeming value it may have.

The definition is vague, and has changed over the years. Essentially, the visual depiction of minors engaged in sexual arousal or activity is always illegal. So are depictions of a "lewd emphasis on the genitals".

This latter criterion is where things become vague, and the prosecutor and judge can exercise considerable discretion, or lack thereof. Hence cases such as the Oklahoma witchhunt against The Tin Drum and those who watched it.

A classic photo by Edward Weston shows his 12-year-old son's penis in close-up. Because Weston is widely considered among the greatest American photographers, (perhaps the greatest), it's unlikely anyone would be prosecuted for viewing or owning this photograph.

Today, anyone taking a photo such as Weston's would likely be prosecuted, if the act or image came to the attention of the authorities. Even if the photographer was widely regarded as serious and artistic, and had the consent of the model's parents. Jock Sturges being a case in point. (Not that his material contains such a "lewd emphasis", except perhaps in the imagination of a would-be censor.) Sturges was never charged with a crime, but his studio was trashed by the Feds, and his negatives and equipment (his life's work and future livelihood) confiscated.

The law says nothing about aesthetic criteria, nor distinguishes art from porn. The fact that Weston's shot was taken nearly 100 years ago shouldn't matter, but it does.

Michaelangelo's David represents a male perhaps 16 years old. Would a photo be kiddie porn if the camera zoomed in on the sculpture's genitalia? Unlikely it would ever be prosecuted as such. But again, only because the work is well-respected, and old enough not to be considered threatening. (By most reasonable folks, anyway.)

Everything I have described is applicable only to federal law. Many states have their own child pornography statutes. Some are more restrictive than the federal standard; others less so. Some make a distinction depending on the viewer: a photo or video becomes child pornography if the viewer is aroused by it. Such laws create a class of material which is legal for most people, but illegal if owned by a pedophile. However well-intentioned, such laws cross the line into criminalization of thoughts and feelings.

Despite the ultimate failure of the prosecution in Oklahoma, the issue is not settled. Under the federal guidelines, The Tin Drum could easily be regarded as kiddie porn. Sadly, the fact that it is a great work of art is, to the law, irrelevant.

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I have now watched the Special Features on disc two of the Criterion release of The Tin Drum on DVD.

Most shocking to some audiences, I assume, is the scene where Oskar and his first love, Maria, undress at the beach.

Some of the issues involving this scene are clarified by the director in a 20-minute "making-of" montage called "Volker Schlöndorff Remembers The Tin Drum". The controversial scene is shown, with bits of storyboards as occasional overlays. These storyboards, director Schlöndorff says, were entered as evidence in the U.S. courts, and were crucial in the ultimate decision that the film is not child pornography.

Katharina Thalbach--the actress who played Maria--balked at having to appear in the nude. To persuade her to go through with the scene, the director constructed an elaborate sequence designed to make it appear that she was completely nude, although she was not.

Two crucial questions arise. Was there actual sexual contact between the actors? And, did the scene depict a simulated act of oral copulation?

David Bennent is the boy who played Oskar. At the time of filming, he was twelve. Although he appeared much younger than his age -- still, he was not small enough to be convincingly the size of a three-year-old. Perhaps closer to five or six.

Close enough? I think so.

It's difficult to imagine a more perfect choice of casting. The actor was in some ways similar to Oskar the character; David himself was unusually small due to a physical condition. He was old enough to bring a surprising maturity to the role, yet still believably a child.

An important consequence of the steps taken to put Katharina at ease: during the filming of the scene, David's face never touched her body. So, it would require considerable mental gymnastics to conclude that sexual contact took place.

But was it simulated sex?

This is more a matter of opinion. Many would assume, given the expression on Maria's face after Oskar buries his head in her...ahem, nether regions...that something sexual was occurring. (More properly, he appears to do so. Watch the sequence on the DVD, and Schlöndorff explains how and why what happened in real life might be out-of-synch with the impression received by the viewer.)

I believe the evidence indicates a more-innocent motivation. Before they enter the shed, Oskar comments on the scent of vanilla which Maria emanates. Therefore, I conclude he acted only with the intent to get closer to whatever it was that he was smelling.

Quite a few American viewers, I'm guessing, will find my argument unconvincing. However, I'd also guess that most Europeans find puzzling the American tendency to equate nudity with eroticism.

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Finally!

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It was banned in OK but that's all

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thats what i thought

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Hell, I'm underaged and I bought it.

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No it doesn't say that. You're an idiot.

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Yeah guys, I'm actually from Oklahoma, and I would like to take this time to formally apologize for my dumbass, uptight, ignorant state. We in OK apparently fear what we don't understand and, among MANY other things, we don't understand nudity as art. That's why we're so religious, because it requires no understanding of logic.

In the equation of infinity, there is no remainder.

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I'm in Oklahoma too. I can't figure this state out. I know it's not a bunch of bible thumping banjo pickin' hillbilly rednecks. I haven't seen the movie yet, but picked up the criterion version today, mainly because of the bonus documentary "Banned in Oklahoma" Whenever I hear that something is controversial, I figured it's probably nothing. a little nipple here and there.... funny to me that the passion of the christ was hailed as the greatest film of all time (at least around here) and it contains some of the most disgusting, gruesome violence. Hell forbid if it showed a female's nipple. I'm done.


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I'm one of those bible thumping banjo pickin' hillbilly rednecks from Oklahoma and I disagree. I'm also a conservitive who wants the government to watch the line and not infringe on my personal rights. I don't belive this is a pornographic film. By local state and federal law it is legal. A lot of people down here thought that this film was child pornography; and it was avalible in the public librarys. If there is an old woman trying to cross the road you have three choices. You can help her, ignore her, or push her into traffic. Which would you do. If you truly belived that there was a film that sexualy exploited children at the library where you send your kids for books and videos, would you be silent? I fully support the right of the people to pettition the government to pull into question situations like this. Here is where it get's ugly. It is illigal for the government to come to your house and demand you surrender your movie or you be arrested. It's called an unwarented search and seasure. What if they had done this with Jurassic Park? What should have happened is they could have put a temporary ban on the SALE of the film until the judge make a ruling on wheather or not the film was illigal. (And we all know that this was such a box office smash hit that the industry would suffer horribly without the sale of it for three months.) Then when it was found to have a redeming quality of artistic value, the ban should have been lifted. However, if it auctilly was found in court to be child pornography, the ban should be made perminant and an order for the people to destroy it themselves should have been given. Then possition of the film could have been made a crime and if people were caught selling it they could be charged with distributition. But I ain't in charge.

Your comparison to the Passion is invalid. It has a redeming artistic quality. And I think it's a pretty darn good one when it depicts the saccrifice Jesus mand for us and the gift of eternal life.

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If The Passion of Christ would not be about Jesus it will be just a luxury slasher with blood and torture. It surely would be banned in many places.
The Tin Drum is not about child pornography but surviving of boy in nazi times.

But i read that in Kansas 12 year old girl can marriage. Thats just normal, but seeing naked bodies on tv or cinema is disaster.

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this movie is shown in tv in germany all the time. it is not banned! (but it still sucks)

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Banning is for whimps.............

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All laws about underage sexuality, everywhere, were meant for one thing, to protect the children. Thus, I can draw only one conclusion : whatever is showed or displayed in a movie or elsewhere is acceptable, IF there was no harm done to anyone.

Does it have to be more complicated than that ? I think not.

As for this particular movie, well, I cannot understand why anyone would take offense in it, because it is quite obvious that no abuse took place. And while most posts here refer to the cabin scene, I thought that the scene in the bedroom - where nothing could be seen - was much more 'shocking', if I must use that word.

Child sexuality is a very strong taboo which can shock even my extremely liberal mind, but it is also a reality. Censorship is wrong - let the artists (like the genius writer Günter Grass, Nobel Prize winner if I'm not mistaking) explore the tough subjects. It is because of them that people aren't all like Oklahoma lawmakers.


*** God Bless America, where movies that show thousands of people get slaughtered are PG-13, and movies that show the shade of a woman's nipple is Restricted. Sex is much naughtier than war and mass murder.

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