I said it before and I will say it again- Robbed - All That Jazz (1979) Discussion

Seriously!

Kramer was such a mediocre movie.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

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But 'Kramer' was the Sentimental Favorite. It told a story that people WANTED to hear (on several levels. One was how the parent who really loved the child would 'win' in the end. Another was how a Bad Woman, meaning a woman who wanted to have a career other than purely-a-caretaker, would 'lose' in the end).

'All That Jazz', on the other hand, told a story that few wanted to hear: the story of how easy it is for us to slip into self-destructiveness. All it takes is a bit of guilt added to a bit of self-deception, and there you are.

So depressingly real a subject just can't be Big Box Office.

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[–] information_police 15 years ago

You are right in your analysis. Very often a movie just comes along at the right time and sweeps everyone up and wins the Oscar because it is the sentimental favorite. Kramer is certainly one. Driving Miss Daisy was another (a fine little movie but certainly not an all-time great). Forrest Gump another.

And movies like Jazz are great but aren't going to be appealing to as wide an audience.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

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[–] preppy-3 14 years ago

Total agreement--"Kramer vs. Kramer" (I LOATHE it) was an audience pleaser. "All That Jazz" wasn't. The real crime was Scheider not winning the Oscar. He was cast against type and did an incredible job. Hoffman's performance in "Kramer" was very easy and by-the-numbers. The Academy almost always go for the "safe" vote.

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[–] uhhuh47300 14 years ago

I've always felt doubly upset, because I would have been happy with either Scheider, or Peter Sellers from BEING THERE winning. Hoffman has done some great work, but KRAMER isn't among it.

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[–] stonewaspknight 14 years ago

RIP ROY

Rest assured though, true film fans know you were robbed!!!!!!!

One of the most remarkable performances in film history, period.

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[–] brodieman1982 14 years ago

POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Oh big deal! Apocalypse Now, Alien, and Life of Brian were better than either of these movies anyway.

All that Jazz. I mean come, that last musical number! Let's rip off the song Bye Bye Love and sing it over and over again. That wouldn't be repetitive.

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[–] Quanfa 14 years ago

As a sub-argument, I believe "Best Picture" needs to be replaced with "Best Production", which is how it used to be and the spirit of how it is today (sometimes.) This is the only possible excuse I can see for Titanic winning for 1997.

For movies in 1979, I have to Say Apocalypse Now was robbed, not All That Jazz. Although All That Jazz was better produced than Kramer vs Kramer to be sure.

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[–] voxhumana 14 years ago

I agree that KVK was a *TERRIBLE* choice.

Here's my attempt at a list of "Best Picture Robberies":

1935 - Mutiny on the Bounty (won)
- The Informer (should have)

1940 - Rebecca (won)
- The Grapes of Wrath (should have)

1941 - How Green was my Valley (won)
- Citizen Kane (It's regarded as one of the greatest films of all time and HGWMV is only remembered because it beat CK).

1951 - An American in Paris (won)
- A Streetcar Named Desire (should have)

1958 - Gigi (won)
- The Defiant Ones (should have)

1964 - My Fair Lady (won)
- Dr Strangelove (Kubrick never won a Best Picture Oscar. This is the one year where he was clearly the most deserving.)

1974 - The Godfather II (won)
- Chinatown (IMHO should have, but obviously I can forgive this one - it was a *very* tough year)

1976 - Rocky (won)
- Taxi Driver or Network (If either of these had won I'd be happy. But Rocky? Sheesh.)

1979 - Kramer vs Kramer (won)
- All That Jazz or Apocalypse Now. (If All That Jazz had lost to Apocalypse Now we'd all probably accept that as reasonable. But to KVK? Blecch.)

(Sidenote - the 80's gets by without a protest from me, although 1980's Ordinary People win over Raging Bull will irk some people. The failure to even nominate Do The Right Thing in 1989 was a crime.)

1990 - Dances with Wolves (won)
- Goodfellas. Ties with Citizen Kane for the "You've got to be kidding" award.

1994 - Forrest Gump (won)
- Shawshank Redemption (or Pulp Fiction)

1998 - Shakespeare in Love (won)
- A year where the weakest film won. Take your pick of Elizabeth, Saving Private Ryan, Life is Beautiful or The Thin Red Line, or even throw in the non-nominated American History X or The Truman Show. I'd choose Elizabeth or SPR.

2001 - A Beautiful Mind (won)
- A fair choice from the nominations (it appears the Academy had informally decided that LOTR would only win for the final film, which it did). But three of the year's best films weren't even nominated: Amelie, Monster's Ball and Memento.

2003 - *NOTHING* was going to beat LOTR (and rightly so). However I wish that Lost In Translation and Mystic River had been held off release for a year as it would have made the 2004 contest much more interesting.

2005 - Crash (won)
- Just like 1998, the weakest film won. Crash had worthy subject matter, but was ham-fisted, melodramatic and self-serving. I'd have chosen Good Night and Good Luck, but could have accepted Munich or Brokeback Mountain as a worthy winner.

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[–] one8teen 13 years ago

Kramer vs Kramer is one of my favourite films. I think both it and All That Jazz deserved 4 Oscars.

Kramer vs Kramer:
Best Picture
Best Actor: Dustin Hoffman
Supporting Actress: Meryl Streep
Adapted Screenplay

All That Jazz:
Directing
Film Editing
Art Direction-Set Decoration
Costume Design

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[–] IMDBRefugee1SD (139) 7 years ago

All that Jazz. I mean come [on], that last musical number! Let's rip off the song Bye Bye Love and sing it over and over again.
That wouldn't be repetitive.
---------------------------------------------------------------
First of all "Bye Bye Love" was listed in the credits which means they paid for the right to use it.
Second, it's common to repeat a lyric multiple times in a performance of a song. And while the lyric doesn't change everything
else does from repetition to repetition. And the song builds to an ecstatic conclusion. Ralph Burns doesn't get enough
credit for his superb musical arrangements in this film.

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[–] looper007 (1126) 5 years ago

Just watched this recently for the first time, just one of greatest expression's of someone putting themselves out there warts and all. Bob Fosse didn't pull any punches and he delivered a fantastic piece of art. It has the same feeling of Fellini's 8 1/2. Must have been awkward for his wife Gwen Verdon and his daughter Nicole to see their husband and father just put all his flaws on the screen.To be fair he put's his wife (who he was split from for a long time they just didn't get divorce) into a good light, Gideon clealry trust's his ex's judgement and cares for her deeply as he does his daughter. What's funny is the Actress playing his alter ego's girlfriend Ann Reinking was actually one of Fosse's girlfriend's in real life, and he also later supposedly had a relationship with Jessica Lange too. As Reinking character says in the film "You can't help thanking them with you're dick" great line. Even the film he's editing in the film is obviously Lenny.

It's got to be the bleakest musical ever, that's for sure. Love The scene with Nilsson's "Perfect day" playing as he goes to be bed with one of the dancers of the show. Also the ending with Everly Brother's "Bye Bye Love" is one of the greatest endings to a film ever, as Gideon says goodbye before he dies. I can't blame Stanley Kubrick saying he loved it. It's stunning stuff. Roy Schneider delivers his greatest performance he ever gave, how Hoffman beat him for it I never know.How in the hell did Robert Benton beat out Bob Fosse for best director. Oscars do get you annoyed with their decisions. It did win the Palm D'or though.

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[–] R_Kane (15828) 4 years ago

Kramer v Kramer had stars likable at the time of release. Period.

All That Jazz was about DANCING!

Of COURSE this was overlooked. Most white folks can’t dance.

But they do get divorced.

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[–] theWatcher74 (186) 4 years ago

I just bought this movie. Splurged on the Criterion collection edition even though I don't really buy a lot of hard copies of movies anymore, though I'm starting to buy more again. Seeing some movies get tinkered with has me a little nervous. Small changes so far, but it still doesn't sit well with me, and it might get worse. We'll see.

Anyway, I came across some clips on YT and it reminded me of what a great movie this was, and I don't generally like musicals. I wouldn't call Kramer vs Kramer fecal matter but I sure like All That Jazz more.

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[–] Otter (24464) 3 years ago

I agree. I've seen "All That Jazz" about 500 times over the years, and have enjoyed the style, energy, fantastic dance, honesty, drama, and Scheider every single time. And the amount of money you'd have to pay me to watch "KvK" again starts in four figures.

"All That Jazz" is a fantastic film, and one that's stood the test of time.

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[–] TheArgentinian (6432) 3 years ago

KvK is a good film. Apocalypse Now is the film that was robbed at the 1980 Oscars.

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[–] rnmboon (376) 2 years ago

1980 was an extraordinary year for the Oscars and for American cinema. Kramer vs. Kramer is a great film and in any other year it would have been a very worthy best picture winner. Just not in 1980! All That Jazz would have been my prefered choice and Apocalypse Now! after that. Manhattan, Being There, The China Syndrome, ...And Justice for All and Alien would have also been really good choices.

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