MovieChat Forums > The Duchess of Duke Street (1979) Discussion > Winter Lament (SPOILER)

Winter Lament (SPOILER)

posted 18 years ago by gaelicguy
19 replies | jump to latest

I've seen this episode for first time in thirty years last night. I never forgot this episode and it has remained with me whenever I thought about this series over the years.

Watching it last night, I must confess that I was put off (borderline shocked, in fact), at what transpired. There was no reason for Margaret's fate (played so beautifully by one of my favorite actresses of the time, Joanna David.) She had more than an inkling of what transpired between Louisa and Charlie and they were utterly dishonest and unfair to her. From Day One, Louisa had a vested interest in seeing this marriage fail. Shame on her and a pox on the Bentinck. But as I recall, Louisa does get it in the end, as does precious Lord Haslemere.

I have committed to the IMDb to catalog the series (in my own mind, I feel it my duty ), but the bloom is off the rose. I couldn't care less about what happens to any of them at this point, and, it occurs to me, that this was part of the reason, though I did enjoy the earlier episodes, this has never been one of my favorite series of the BBC canon of costume drama.

No pun, but this episode frosted me utterly and left me cold.

Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot.

[–] roghache 18 years ago

I haven't watched this series so really shouldn't be on this board at all! However, I did want to put in a good word for Joanna David, whom I agree is a wonderful actress.

I saw her years ago as Mrs. de Winter in the 1979 TV mini series version of Rebecca. She was so well suited to the role that it ruined the part for me for any other actress, including even Joan Fontaine in the famous 1940 Hitchcock classic.

I'm not sure what sort of character Margaret is in The Duchess of Duke Street but in Rebecca, Joanna David portrays a quiet woman with some similarities (but also differences) to the character Hazel in Upstairs Downstairs. Both middle class wives newly married to upper crust gentlemen, and both following in the footsteps of accomplished, assured upper crust hostesses of their respective households. Both facing disapproval by the servants, and both with less than supportive, "difficult" husbands.

[–] gaelicguy 18 years ago

Well, roghache, while I stick to my original post, I was precipitous -- the storyline becomes quite compelling and the last few episodes have been outstanding.

I can see Joanna David as Rebecca and, I would suspect in 1979, the definitive one at that. It's a shame that Auntie Beeb has never seen fit to release it on VHS or DVD. I do hope one day they will -- I feel certain I would enjoy it very much indeed.

Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot.

[–] roghache 18 years ago

I'm pleased the series has perked up for you, Gaelicguy, and can only imagine you will do an excellent job in cataloging it, as you did with Upstairs Downstairs. But yes, it's a pity that the Joanna David version of Rebecca isn't available on DVD.

[–] melj 17 years ago

Hi gaelicguy and roghache! I spotted your post here some weeks ago just as I was starting to watch the programme for the third time. I thought that I would not comment until I had got to this episode and now I have.

Firstly, let me say I feel that this episode is not one of the production's best. I attribute this to the writer Maggie Wadey, as the only other episode that she penned is also not as good as the rest. One reason for this is the comparative lack of humour -- as we all know that the best dramas incorporate a good dose of humour; I have also noticed -- having seen other works by Wadey -- that her trademark is a slightly weird feel, if that makes sense.

We have had a similar conversation on the UpDown board, but the thing about these characters is that they are three-dimensional. I would not go so far as saying that Louisa was determined to see the marriage fail, but I can understand why she was not exactly happy about it taking place. Charlie's attitude during Margaret's illness illustrated that childish, petulant trait that has also been applied to James Bellamy. The moment I found the most poignant was when Margaret tells Louisa of the time she went rowing with Charlie and asks him if he remembers. Then when he casually says no, the pain expressed on her face is so very palpable.

Joanna David is one of those actors/actresses who appears in almost every period drama -- another that springs to mind is Robert Hardy who also pops up here and in UpDown. Other performances of hers that I can think of from the 1970s include 'War & Peace' and 'Lillie'. I too would like to see her version of 'Rebecca' -- which, as I understand features real-life husband and wife Jeremy Brett and Anna Massey (although admittedly, they were divorced at the time) -- made available on DVD. However, I am getting a little ahead of myself as I have not yet read the book. I recently read Anna Massey's autobiography and she said it was one of her favourite roles and that she and Joanna David have remained best friends ever since. I also understand that Joanna David's daughter Emilia Fox played the same role in a recent adaptation. How interesting! Another similar example is Lockwood West who played Edward VII in the 'Guest of Honour' episode of UpDown and is the father of Timothy West who played the part in 'Edward the Seventh' (also known as 'Edward the King').

I am glad you warmed to it after that episode gaelicguy as I have to disagree with you and say that 'The Duchess of Duke Street' is one of my favourites. Have you finished yet I wonder? What was your final evaluation?

Roghache, being the fan I know you are of UpDown, I would really recommend that you see this. I am certain you will like it -- though obviously not as much as UpDown.

[–] roghache 17 years ago

Hello, melj, we meet again! I noticed you on this thread and am just popping in briefly to thank you for your tip.

I encourage you to read the novel Rebecca, one of my favourites and IMO better than any film adaptation. I cannot recommend the 1997 movie version which stars Joanna David's daughter, Emilia Fox, as Mrs. de Winter because it shows Rebecca at least partially through flashback and thus ruins her air of mystery (at least for me).

[–] gaelicguy 17 years ago

Ultimately, I enjoyed it very much, melj and did write plot outlines and summaries here. I did feel great sympathy for Louisa once the war is over (don't want to spoil anything for others) and I thought it was well done, beautifully produced. I found the ending poignant.

I do think that Margaret may have been developed further, but I don't fault the writer. Unlike Updown, this series did not have a Script Editor, then did hire one and he was subsequently fired by the series producers.

Updown had a superb Script Editor, this series did not and was made redundant. Seems a shame, because he was hired at the end of the first series. I wonder why he wasn't replaced, but as I have pointed out, this series, unlike Updown, was produced by the BBC. I'm sure a different set of rules apply vis a vis British commercial televison at that time.

I haven't seen her in years, but I do remember Joanna David was everywhere during these heady days at the BBC. I think she was very good as Margaret - might have been great, given the chance. More's the pity, but I did think Louisa was never keen to lose Charlie to her - the Universe had something else in mind. What annoyed me was Charlie never disclosing Lottie to his intended during their engagement nor after they were married -- not a good basis for any marriage. She sensed it though and that's part of what put her over the edge - this and a few other problems I suspect she had.

Karma is everything!

Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot.

[–] rosaf19 16 years ago

I actually think that on the whole, the tone of "The Duchess of Duke Street" is more, not less consistent than the tone of "Upstairs Downstairs," in spite of Alfred Shaughnessy's efforts (although I haven't finished watching TDODS yet . . . I've only watched through "Shadows"). "Upstairs Downstairs" has many quirky episodes that don't quite fit -- "Desirous of Change" is one.

I don't think Louisa was trying to mess up Charlie's marriage at all, but I think it was a mistake on his part to invite her to come. No doubt he did so because he was miserable and lonely and was missing her. Everyone involved was ill-equipped to help Margaret. What she needed was a modern-day psychiatrist.

[–] randommovies2002 9 years ago

I don't think Louisa was trying to mess up Charlie's marriage at all, but I think it was a mistake on his part to invite her to come. No doubt he did so because he was miserable and lonely and was missing her. Everyone involved was ill-equipped to help Margaret. What she needed was a modern-day psychiatrist.

Oh, I agree completely. Margaret had some very serious problems. She is the saddest figure in the entire series, imo (even more so than the wounded soldier who entrusts Mary with the care of his violin, when he returns to the front).

[–] randommovies2002 9 years ago

Joanna David is one of those actors/actresses who appears in almost every period drama

She did appear in many television dramas during the 1970s. She seems to have specialized, back then, in playing characters who are either repressed, sheltered, or extremely shy. (I can only speak of the performances I've seen), such as Elinor Dashwood in Sense and Sensibility, Sonya in War & Peace, Alice in The Last of the Mohicans, the Princess of Wales in Jennie: Lady Randolph Churchill, the second wife of Maxim de Winter in Rebecca, and Lily Langtry's daughter in Lillie,

[–] Devans00 16 years ago

I agree with your summarization of Winter Lament, rosaf19. I didn't get the impression that Louisa actively wanted harm to come to Margaret or that she felt malicious towards her. Louisa's motivation to come visit the Haslemeres besides having a vacation was to keep company with an old friend, Charlie and have a look at Lottie. By the age of the girl I'd say about 10 years had passed since she last laid eyes on her daughter. Louisa asked after Lottie at least two episodes before the visit. The curiosity was overwhelming.

Margaret's problems were caused by a combination of sexual repression, boredom and ignorance. Just goes to show how stifling all that protecting and isolating upper class women actually was. Figuring out that Charlie and Louisa had a daughter that had been living under her nose may have been the last straw to push Margaret over the edge. If she was in a better place mentally, I don't think the information would have left to suicide.

I'm curious. What actions of Louisa or Charlie made people think they were actively being mean to Margaret?

No two persons ever watch the same movie.

[–] chuffnobbler 16 years ago

I felt Louisa was very sensitive towards Margaret ... well, as sensitive as Louisa could be. (Shouting, booming, swearing, bullying, etc).

Winter Lament was very eerie. Liz Smith as Nanny is quite creepy and sly. If anything, Nanny's claustrophobic, Mrs Danvers-style, love for Margaret had a far more negative effect than Louisa's presence.

[–] Devans00 16 years ago

Exactly, chuffnobbler. Nanny and her superstitious ways were a bigger and longer influence on Margaret than Louisa ever was. Basically Margaret went from one extremely sheltered, repressive old lady's house (her mother) to another old lady's (Nanny) suffocating, backward household.

Basically, Margaret couldn't win. Which is basically what Louisa said to her boyfriend when they were alone.

No two persons ever watch the same movie.

[–] Attillio 16 years ago

Wasn't it extraordinarily "tactful" and "sensitive" of Louisa to ask Charles (who was standing right next to his obviously depressed wife, Margaret, in that church pew) just which one of the young girls on the other side of the church was Lottie? (What did Louisa think, that Margaret WASN'T going to overhear her question and immediately figure out what they were talking about? No wonder Margaret became suicidal after hearing that extremely ill-timed question by Louisa.)

My God, it's just as well that Louisa never became an ambassador, involved in high-level diplomatic negotiations for the British government! Louisa showed about as much "tact" and "thoughtfulness" towards Margaret as did George Clooney towards Charlton Heston.

[–] greenegg 14 years ago

You're right on the mark, chuffnobbler! Margaret's suffocating upbringing, which was extended by Charles' nanny's equally suffocating, superstitious, infantilizing influence, left her unable to be a wife. As someone else said, Margaret needed a psychiatrist. As so many other repressed, depressed, frigid, anorectic women of her era, Margaret was doomed. She reminded me of the character in Charlotte Perkins Gilman's The Yellow Wallpaper, except she didn't have the release of writing that Gilman's character had.

Louisa and Charles did not treat Margaret cruelly. Charles may have shared a touch of James Bellamy's immaturity, but he gave this marriage his best effort. Not only did Louisa help Margaret during her engagement, as well as the early days of her marriage to Charles, but Louisa also recognized how Nanny enabled Margaret's anorexia and tried to stop her. Had Charlie had the guts to send Nanny packing, they might just have saved Margaret, though her condition was already pretty dire. Think Karen Carpenter and other anorectics, whose hearts and other organs fail. Margaret committed suicide passively by starving herself on every level. She wanted to live her whole life in the nursery, as a little girl. No one could have saved her. Charlie tells Louisa he's tried everything he can think of, but to no avail. Margaret was not completely innocent in sexual matters. While she clearly valued her virginity and felt repulsed by the physical act, she certainly knew of Charlie's previous amours. During their engagement, Margaret stood by Charles when Irene Baker sued him for breach of promise. In the end, Margaret simply wasn't cut out for marriage. She would have been better off doing a Princess Toria by remaining a spinster. Toria was the daughter of Edward VII and Queen Alexandra who remained with her mother as a companion and private secretary.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops!

[–] randommovies2002 9 years ago

As so many other repressed, depressed, frigid, anorectic women of her era, Margaret was doomed. She reminded me of the character in Charlotte Perkins Gilman's The Yellow Wallpaper, except she didn't have the release of writing that Gilman's character had.

Ahh, good comparison. Virginia Woolf came to mind, for me. I thought of her many diary entries about her Harley Street doctors, and how defeated they made her feel.

Louisa and Charles did not treat Margaret cruelly. Charles may have shared a touch of James Bellamy's immaturity, but he gave this marriage his best effort. Not only did Louisa help Margaret during her engagement, as well as the early days of her marriage to Charles, but Louisa also recognized how Nanny enabled Margaret's anorexia and tried to stop her.

That is exactly how I see it, too. The nanny reminded me of a cross between Mrs. Danvers (as suggested above) and Baroness Lehzen, who was Queen Victoria's over-stepping governess.

Margaret committed suicide passively by starving herself on every level. She wanted to live her whole life in the nursery, as a little girl. No one could have saved her.

I quite agree. Remember the scene when the vicar plays the piano, and Marget skips around the room, dancing like a little girl? It seemed like Margaret wanted to go back to her childhood and live in that "happy place" where she was protected, and everything was magical and there were no real world worries or stresses. Perhaps after the death of her parents, she began longing for those happy times.

In the end, Margaret simply wasn't cut out for marriage. She would have been better off doing a Princess Toria by remaining a spinster.

Interesting conclusion. I think you're right. It didn't matter who margaret married, the same thing would have happened anyway because she had such severe problems, and the medical establishment was not equipped to provide helpful treatments for people who suffered as she did.

[–] greenegg 9 years ago

Thanks, rm2002! Great minds think alike. Your Woolf and Lehzen associations seem right on the mark, as well. As a literary scholar, I specialize in 19th and 20th century British life and letters, so I felt moved by Winter Lament, rather than puzzled by it. The scene of Margaret dancing about the room while the vicar plays the joyous music seems so heartbreaking; your description seems spot on. I found the writers and performers gave a poignant snapshot of one of the central issues faced by so many women of those periods; many other women have suffered similar conditions through countless centuries. No matter how many times I view that episode, I still feel saddened by the plight of women such as Margaret. Louisa may seem too pushy, aggressive, etc., but her moxie gave her the strength not only to survive, but also to thrive. Charlie also suffered from some emotional scars, not the least of which was having the woman he truly loved refuse to marry him; he also longed, at least subconsciously, for those more carefree childhood days. While it was not unusual for families to keep their nannies about for life, Charles might have been better equipped to become a more fulfilled man had he let nanny retire somewhere else.

To Picador, I must respectfully disagree. There may a bit of the plot device going on with Margaret, but she actually provides an excellent foil for Louisa by representing how the upper class way of raising women too genteelly could contribute to their future mental illness. Sheltering young women too much and too long often left them ill-equipped to deal with the outside world, let alone with the physical demands of marriage. In its own brief way, DODS offers us a well-honed glimpse into that claustrophobic world.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops! 

[–] randommovies2002 9 years ago

Thank you.

I agree with you about Margaret. She can never be viewed simply as a plot device, not with the nuanced performance of Joanna David. The clues about Margaret are all there; David's superb performance tells the back story.

[–] greenegg 9 years ago

Agreed. I just love David's work. She appears in so many projects, yet she always finds a way to inhabit each character. I just adore all the nuances she creates, and she's so lovely in the most delicate British way.

Put puppy mills out of business: never buy dogs from pet shops! 

[–] Picador66 14 years ago

I think the chief problem with this episode is that Margaret herself was always a plot device more than she was a character. She was written into the show because Charlie and Louisa have to stay separated for the sake of dramatic conflict. Then it becomes desirable to bring the two leads back together later on, so the chief obstacle to their on-again/off-again romance has to go. The writers can't make people too sad for her or for Charlie or else people would blame Louisa. So instead Margaret is made to be a source of misery and we're all quietly glad to be rid of her.