What the heck did Starbuck and Apollo see in the ship that had crashed? It's very frustrating that they do not tell or show you. And also, what was the significance of the fact (as Baltar points out) that Count Iblis' voice was that of the Imperious Leader? They never address that either...
shareThe script called for a figure with a cloven hoof to be inside the ship, but networkls would not allow such a religious symbol representing the devil appear on Sunday night television.
The voice was never addressed, though Patrick Macnee played both the leader and Iblis.
>What the heck did Starbuck and Apollo see in the ship that had crashed? It's >very frustrating that they do not tell or show you.
In the book version it is a demon.
And also, what was the significance of the fact (as Baltar points out) that Count Iblis' voice was that of the Imperious Leader? They never address that either...
This was not in the book version but my theory. Count Iblis tricked the real Cylons into being overcome by theri own technology and persuaded the technology to so overcome and try to conquer the galaxy.
Count Iblis was once on the ship of light and that being was one of his follows watch War of the Gods Pt2 again where Starback shoots Iblis for a second you can see what he reallly looks like.
In a way it was Balter said that for Iblis and the Imperious Leader to have the same voice it had to have been done over a Thousand Yearn ago before the great war.
In a early ep Apollo said to Boxy that the true Cyclons were a reptilian race and that they saw the human form good and they made robots that look like humans.
[deleted]
These are very good points you make. However, the main problem I have with believing that the destroyed ship was the Pegasus is I can't see the people or Cain willingly following Iblis. Cain was extremely stubborn, and his crew considered him a full-blown hero; therefore, they were very happy with their condition and their commander.
However, the people of Galactica were growing weary of their condition--they wanted a permanent home, and some of the people were never keen on Adama being commander to begin with.
I just can't see either Cain or his people being taken in by Iblis.
It was not the Pegasus if the series went to a second serson the would have brought back the Pegasus so that was a different ship.
Thats the beauty of the episode, that all the Pegasus/Cain references were misleading etc and that in reality Iblis was playing everyone for his own ends, and setting them up.
Powerful as he might be as an "advanced being", unlike Star Trek's Trelane or Q he can't just show off his powers because of 'free will' which even he can't break. But cos he is a 'devil/Evil Jinn' as his islamic name suggests, he can though manipulate the will of others into following him (his true power) as he did with Sheba.
Iblis also does and doesn't do "directly" certain things in both the episodes in order to trick the colonials into following him as well?
1) He uses his powers to force Sheba into following him.
2) Long as she was wih the Count she couldn't break free of his will, as seen on the Agroships.
3) He doesn't cause the crops and fruit on the agroships to grow by it was the passing light ship orbs instead. A scene was cut where, as he kissed Sheba, Iblis leans on a tree, the ship's farmer also noticed this as it happened. Now, in part 2 the scene where Apollo, Starbuck and Dr Wilker examine the crops and fruit to take back to the Galactica for study, the farmer also points out to the large tree that happens to be dead for some unknown reason, which then mystifys them all?!
4) Iblis listening into people's mental thoughts. As he did with mostly everyone in the episodes; Colonel Tigh, The Council of 12 members, Apollo, Starbuck and even Commander Adama himself.
5) Iblis, somewhat possessed Boomer, when he was playing against Apollo and Starbuck in the game of 'Triad'! Boomer wanted to beat his friends and let off some frustations (i.e. the missing Viper pilots) the Count asked him if he REALLY wanted to win. Inwhich Iblis then kinda possesed Boomer and he played better than Apollo and Starbuck. The War Of The Gods novel had, Boomer being too aggressive and actually injured Apollo and Starbuck somewhat too.
6) Levitating the lights in Adama's/Council chambers. Although Adama himself kinda replicates this ability later on by, showing his son that he was apart of the 'Colonial Military Institute's training into telepathy and mental powers course at the academy!
7) Its very possible that The Count, had forseen what the the Lightship orbs would do to Baltar, and used it to 'cash in' on one of the Council's promises to deliver the human traitor to the fleet. Or that he did indeed deliver Baltar using his powers, cos Baltar betrayed the humans to the Cylons causing the Colonial Holocaust, was spared and followed the new Imperious Leader in 'Saga Of A Starworld's epilogue scenes.
Because he followed the Cylon's and Imperious Leader, and Iblis caused the annillation of the original reptillian Cylons through similar deceptions. Baltar was always following Count Iblis in a sense, and thus his will was subjects to Iblis whims (the painful kneeling scene for Baltar in part 2) and commands. Hence, unknown to Baltar, Iblis sinisterly called him old friend!
Thirdly. It may also be very possible that Iblis could easily influence the Imperious Leader, and took mental control of the new one, after Carillon was destroyed in the pilot and spared Baltar through the new Cylon Leader etc?
8) Iblis gives off some kind of 'High energy field', thus its why any machinery and equipment on the ship kinda of went all haywire when he walked past. Cassiopea and Dr Salik couldn't get back with reports on the Count's well being cos they couldn't get a heartbeat nor accurate reading (Dr Salik: They all came back with broken scanners?).
9) Iblis knows of the 'House Of Kobol' from which Adama is descended from. And may have been one of the visitations of 'higher beings' that visited Kobol several millenias ago, as Adama later tells Apollo.
10) The crashed ship holds the key to his background. Thus its why he wanted and kept them from not going anywhere near there. the and and his followers were struck down by the Lightship. That he was a 'fallen angel' was the literal reference going on here. And that Sheba's fears allowed her to be vulnerable to the Count's mental games. Quite possibly he may have wanted her to think the ship was the Pegasus and that by being with him, she'll be safe (or some lie that he owed her father etc etc.) And convert her to his side for good.
Whereas in actual fact he is the Prince Of Darkness and his minions where actually demons/devils. Whether they were willing followers of converted saps who knows. but their identities were obviously the big mystery of the original series.
Its frustating, that we never saw the revelation scene itself but it was always meant to be Dead Demons in that scene! The Pegasus and Cain mentioned dialogue was to play on the hopes of it being the Pegasus and solve its fate, but alas no. Clever little episode misleading you and making sure you read all the pieces correctly is what it was really!
Larson outdid himself writing WOTG's. Beyond the dogfights and Cylons, this one season series had tons of untapped potential!
ST4
Mysteries do surround what kind of ship it was if it wasn't the Pegasus though (novel made it out to be so big , that it made the Galactica look like a Viper by comparison). What Iblis did afterwards, when he went on the run from his own people. Why the Lightship took Viper pilots? (a touch upon the Alien/U.F.O. visitations and disappearences etc) but it wasn't ever clearly explained why they did.
Besides the pilot, WOTG is BSG best set of episodes!
"He is one, we are three, it is the strength of three that will defeat him...together. General Zod"
Here's the classic WOTG scene from youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUbd4SlcSGc&feature=related
ST4
"He is one, we are three, it is the strength of three that will defeat him...together. General Zod"
[deleted]
Technically you are correct TristanFi. But At almost every turn Count Iblis either Hypnotizes or post hypnotizes Sheba into dismissing the reasons she ought to be careful. If God will send her to Hell for that then He is unjust!
shareBut a person's will power is either strong or weak, depending on that person. Think 'The Count' took advantage of Sheba when she was vulnerable and manipulated her further when he found an opening in her mind, with his powers (if the will power was much weaker etc?).
Let's remember that he can read minds, even if he hasn't any dominion over them in terms of will power to give them commandments/orders, he can read their intentions quite easily, thus manipulate many situations to his advantage.
Such pity the series wasn't continued at the time. As a sequel to this episode would've answered alot of leftover questions!
ST4
"He is one, we are three, it is the strength of three that will defeat him...together. General Zod"
[deleted]
Might be written, but the world is full of sin. Nothing thats written is so easy to follow neither. Satan i.e. the devil doesn't give up as evil is constantly persistant and doesn't give up so easily. Isn't this the same devil that tormented Jesus in the new teastament for 40 days and nights afterall.
Satan gave up, but didn't do so after the first day did he. Job ('jobe') also didn't bend to Satan, but he too suffered so badly at the devil's hands/torment etc.
While he will flee from us eventually, it won't be until theirs been a fight though. Whether it be over your soul or physcial ability to withstand his torment for extremely long periods of time.
As the old saying goes; Thats easier said than done!
ST4
"He is one, we are three, it is the strength of three that will defeat him...together. General Zod"
Here's the classic WOTG scene from youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUbd4SlcSGc&feature=related >>> Yikes, I don't like that fan edit at all. It completely does NOT live up to the imagination, nor does it in any way look like something that would evoke the reactions given by Apollo and Starbuck. Om my god, it's a dead alien!!!!! Nope, terrible idea. There is talk from Glen Larson that they were going to show a cloven hoof that would have had a bit more impact, considering the idea of Iblis being a devil.
- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
If Battlestar Galactica were to get an official 'Remastered Series' approach in HD, akin to Star Trek The Original series. Perhaps this episode, would get the proper treatment that was originally intended for it way back in 1979.
ST4
"He is one, we are three, it is the strength of three that will defeat him...together. General Zod"
I'm all for tweaking things to meet current technology, but I am not in favor of alterations made after the fact. The scene as is inspires a great deal of imagination and works well on that level. No need to spoil it with what would inevitably be a disappointment, just like what was seen in the fan clip. If it were original footage, that would be one thing, but I don't want some new idea stuck in where it doesn't belong aka George Lucas.
- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
This is an old thread, and I'm not sure if you care, but I have thought of a logical reason for why the light beings kidnapped the galactica's pilots.. :)
Remember that some of Iblis' followers had recently met their doom on a crashed ship ... Perhaps the beings of light were proactively removing the Galactica's viper pilots from harm's way .. so that they - who were critical to the survival of the rest of the humans in the fleet - were out of the sphere of Iblis' influence. Why wouldn't Starbuck, Apollo and Sheba be taken then? Perhaps the beings of light felt compelled to leave the strongest warriors behind in case the Galactica faced an outside danger during their encounter with Iblis ...
Anyway yeah - this is defnitely one of the stronger episodes. I've thought about it ever since I first saw it in 1979! :) ... All of the actors were great here ... and the script was decent too. Patrick Macnee was awesome!
The only thing I didn't care for was the look of the inside of the ship of lights. That cheesy rear-projected phony-balony white cliff thingy. Oh well .. they did their best back then. :)
My ideas are in "what did they see in the ship". I suggested that basically the ship was from a "rag-tag fugitive fleet" of lizard Cylons feeing from the machine Cylones. They would have seen dead lizard Cylons wearing insignia like that used by Iblis's human followers on Galactica and dying words scrawled on the wallin long-dried green lizard Cylon blood saying "We trusted Iblis and he betrayed us."
shareThis is basically what should've happened..
The Mystery of the Crashed Ship
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/b/bb/19_-_War_of_the_Gods.jpg
I'd love to see that being redone as a minor shot refilmed today for a "SE" of the episode itself.
The Cloven Hoof and the refilming inside the pod itself revealing the contents inside Iblis wrecked ship!
ST4
When Gotham is ashes, you have my permission to die!
Mods seem to be clearing up the place a bit and we've lost a ton of pages or so and i like this particular thread so i'm *bumping* it to save it.
ST4
30 seconds of Ring Of Honor is better than 3 hours of WWE RAW
I have heard two sides of the story over the years on what they really saw. I want to believe the story Glen A. Larson told on the DVD. He said they shot a scene showing Cloves and Hooves and were not allowed to use it. My only problem with that story is that they included a lot of deleted footage from each episode. Why was that footage not on the DVD? I guess it could have been lost or destroyed.
The other theory was they saw the reamains of the Pegasus and Commander Cain was what they saw. Apollo does mention that the wreckage looked like a Battlestar.
Either way I believe Iblis was supposed to be the devil. I liked the theory from the other post that mentioned that Iblis has originally tricked the origianl Cylon creators into making the Cylons in to machine that wanted to destroy the human race. I kinda like that theory and it works.
The other theory was they saw the reamains of the Pegasus and Commander Cain was what they saw. Apollo does mention that the wreckage looked like a Battlestar. >>> That was NEVER the intention, as they fully expected to use Commander Cain and the Pegasus again in later seasons. That's just fan-fiction because of the use of Sheba. Had Athena still been a main character rather than Sheba, the story most likely would have used her, but she was out by then. Had it been Athena, no one would ever even consider that what was seen in the wreckage was Cain. There is no reason to question Larson when he specifically states what the scene was supposed to be.
- - - - - - -
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?
Why Baltar came to the Galactica made the no sense to me. He betrayed them to the Cylons so why would they want to hear anything he says.
Good episode though.
Why Baltar came to the Galactica made the no sense to me. He betrayed them to the Cylons so why would they want to hear anything he says.
^Its implied that the Lightship/orbs or Count Iblis mentally influenced him somehow. Given Count Iblis connection to the Cylons (his voice being the same as the Imperious Leader's) and Baltar's devotion to follow the Cylons, he A) was a willing or unknowing willing participant of Iblis inadvertently B) the Lightship orbs influenced him enough to go to the Galactica to end the struggle between the Colonials and Cylons.
And Iblis somehow foresaw this with his power and acted upon it saying; he would deliver Baltar to the council for trial and took lots of credit for something when the Council asked him to perform three tasks etc.
Either way, the colonials took advantage of the situation and imprisoned him indefinitely, until supposedly the end of Hand Of God, as offscreen he possibly might have been released (after his information in that episode might've helped Starbuck and Apollo?) etc.
ST4
Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdownhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGNMcif9RjA
Speaking of the Count Iblis episode, what's with this BG and May-December pairings ?
First it was Cain and Cassiopeia
then Iblis and Sheba
then Chameleon and Cassiopeia
this show has somewhat of an obsession with girls with guys old enough to be their fathers
If you are right and there had been second season then Athena would have been next! Her old Beau had not been introduced. what do you think of the idea he would have been a Man of any kind of Power you wish to speculate on?
sharewhat's with this BG and May-December pairings ?
What's wrong with may-December pairings?
Do you know how many people are descended from May-December marriages and owldn't even be alive except for them?
I always thought it was a sign somehow that it was the Pegasus. And thats why they didnt want sheba to see it.
shareWhile it might've been a sly subtle play in the two part episodes with Apollo's comments of the ship wreckage; 'being as big as a Battlestar' and Iblis references to Sheba about seeing her father again. I really never dug any vibes about the crashed ship supposedly being the Battlestar Pegasus at all actually. Even though i was around at the time when many people did indeed shared those very same opinions of these episodes of BSG!
Even if it had been, its would've been Apollo and Starbuck's sad duty to report it to the Galactica and his father Adama on Cain's ship and his final eventual fate etc. Sheba was a pilot in fleet and was a Colonial Warrior, surely receiving sad news is part of her job description regardless of her personal feelings she along with Lt Bo-Jay and 'Silver Spar' squadron would have to be told of Commander Cain's fate and the truth of her former crewmates on the Pegasus.
Although kinda cheesy, i take it Apollo didn't want her to see the bodies of the dead demons corpses inside the crash which were suppose to be truly horrific in appearance.
ST4
Look man F&%k Google and Yahoo, ask me!
Slightly old threat, but thought I would add my thoughts to yours. I just watched these episodes, so came on here to see what others thought of them. I can see why people would think the wreckage was the Pegasus, but I agree with you in that it wasn't. The main reason being is that Apollo figures out who Iblis truly is by what he finds in the wreckage. I don't see how he could have figured that out if it was Cain and/or his crew.
shareI don't remember a romance between Cassie and Chameleon.
But this episode was confusing, because although the novelizations say it was a ship of devils, the episode still seemed to strongly imply that it was in fact the Pegasus.
Implying it was the Pegasus was the whole clever 'red herring' here methinks! The trouble was the double motif was too good and people/audiences at the time accept a few or half the fans took it for the real deal though.
References for and against the Devil/demons or Battlestar Pegasus clues in the two episodes
The Battlestar Pegasus reasons
1) Apollo says the wreckage is as; 'big as a Battlestar'
2) Iblis tells Sheba in part 1 she will see her father again on the Agroship 9
3) The wreckage was metallic in origin (not some advance ship but possibly humanoid in design) although it was mostly vaporized by something with the power of a sun/star etc's.
4) Colonel Tigh didn't like the readings he and flight officer; Omega picked up on the Galactica's bridge during the opening of the episode. Implying the reading were something in nature like recent battle or an explosion. The only reason Vipers were sent after Bo-jay's Silver Spar squadron was because they had launched mere hours earlier and had to know what happened to their previous Viper squadron. Galactica wanted to know if they crashed all together at the same time in the quadrant up ahead!
5) Apollo told Sheba to stay back at the crash sight in part 2. (Was he hiding something from her?)
The Demons/Devils of Count Iblis reasons
1) The radon/radiation levels; Apollo and Starbuck picked up earlier at the crash sight in part 1 were a 'myth' or an illusion Iblis probably created to fool their true scan readings.
2) In the extended telemovie version; Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba saw a strange highlighted figure off in the distance, before moving towards him/her to the crash sight!
3) The music bars whenever the crashed ship is seen in part 1 (sinister overtones in the theme told it all really?)
4) Dr Salik and Cassiopea's scan readings of Iblis hinting he isn't human at all despite his outward appearance. Also the high pitched whine he creates whenever passing electronic equipment
5) Iblis first scene with Adama, implied so much about him. a) He knew of the fall of the original 13 human tribes on Kobol, 2) hinted a races more powerful than the Cylons or Colonial humans presently. 3) Iblis saying he had been on Earth at one time or another? (He also said this earlier to Captain Apollo on the red planet in the telemovie version of the extended two episodes)
6) Scene with the now captured; Baltar in the prison barge/holding cell in part 1. told of Iblis possible hand in the creation of the robotic Cylons and the downfall of the original Reptilian Cylons and Iblis voice sound EXACTLY like that of the; Imperious Leader's.
7) The whole reading of minds and powers of the mind (telekenesis shown by Adama [at a rather basic level?] and Count Iblis himself.
8) Count Iblis conversation with Sheba on the Galactica about games of; life and death. Hinted at his much darker intentions somewhat. And later Iblis helping Boomer to beat Apollo and Starbuck at a game of 'triad'. It's implies he took control of Boomer mentally somewhat.
9) Adama and Iblis arguing in the passage ways after they left the pilot barracks. The mere mention of a supreme being like that of a; 'God' by Adama, only insulted Iblis to a muffled rage he could barely hold back upon. God being the adversary of; Satan/The Devil.
10) Iblis last conversation with Adama. Iblis: "When a mortal breaks a bargain with me, there is a high price to pay!"
11) Iblis disappearing (Teleporting aways) after; Apollo and Starbuck who have gone down to the planet to inspect his crashed ship.
12) Apollo and Starbuck horrific discovery inside the crashed ship!
13) Apollo firing his weapon at Count Iblis revealing his true form (thus hinting at what Apollo and Starbuck possibly saw inside the ship itself?)
14) The revelation told by the 'Beings Of Light' of who Count Iblis truly is.
Its clever when viewed both ways, but originally the crashed ship wasn't the Battlestar Pegasus though. It was a clever play on the episode in throwing us some possibilities it was or could be as a mere dilemma to further the plot with some confusion and avenues to go down, but all in all the end revelation was that Iblis converted or tricked previous passersby in space and they paid for it when the Lightship took on Iblis and battled him in space which caused them to crash into a nearby planet.
Where later on, Bo-jay and Silver Spar Squadron suddenly came upon the lightship orbs and the mothership itself.
ST4
Name's Django, The D is silent.