Why wasn't Obi-Wan at all shocked... - Star Wars (1977) Discussion

[–] GorchBrother 7 years ago

Conceivably, Obi Wan would have sensed that Vader was alive.

What's more puzzling (post prequels) is why Tarkin seems to imply that the Empire just considered Obi Wan an irrelevancy that must have expired naturally by the time of A New Hope. Rather than an enemy of the state, like all the other Jedi, to be hunted down and exterminated with extreme prejudice.

Sounds like complacency on the part of the Empire to me. They just assumed that Yoda and Obi Wan gave up and retired to the countryside after the clone wars.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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[–] chriscougar7 7 years ago

Well they hadn't, presumably, been heard from for almost 20 years

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[–] Ace_Sax 7 years ago

Very true. For all they knew Obi-Wan and Yoda could've spent the past 19 years training new Jedi and slowly putting together a new underground Jedi order. If they were just two apprentices than the Empire's nonchalant attitude would've made more sense but these were two Jedi masters. You'd think that a massive manhunt would have been warranted as both of them were too dangerous to be ignored.

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[–] JessDrew 7 years ago

Sounds like complacency on the part of the Empire to me. They just assumed that Yoda and Obi Wan gave up and retired to the countryside after the clone wars.

That, and the fact that it's pretty obvious that Obi Wan and Anakin were originally intended to be somewhat older than their prequel counterparts implied. The unmasked Vader in ROTJ was, in Lucas' own words, a 'man in his 60s' which leaves Obi Wan to be at least 70ish at the time of ep 4.

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[–] WeAintFoundShin 7 years ago

I assume Obi-Wan knew Anakin was still alive, and even that he was going by Darth Vader.

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[–] otter 7 years ago

How could he not know?

He could probably sense Anakin through the Force or get the news from Qui-Gon's ghost, or just pick up a Tattooine newspaper some time.

“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

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[–] Volley2020 7 years ago

Obi-Wan would have assumed the molten pit on Mustafar would have killed off Anakin... It's unknown when Obi-Wan found out that Darth Vader survived, but it most certainly was not during the events of Episode IV, as he showed no signs of surprise. He knew the Dark Lord was Anakin Skywalker for possibly years, but how many of the 20 years between III and IV, is unknown.

However, when Episode IV was filming, Darth Vader really was the bad guy that killed Luke's father, so Obi-Wan not only told the truth in the movie, but he acted like he knew the situation. Retconning can be devastating if not done right, and the revelation in Empire Strikes Back regarding Luke's parentage is where it all begins.

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[–] zaphod08 7 years ago

I mostly agree with you about where the problem began, Volley. The events of Empire could have remained unchanged, if it turned out that Vader was the one who lied. That's the problem in a nutshell. In heroic fantasy, its should be the villain who is dishonest, not the mentor.

In the kingdom of the blind, you're the village idiot.

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[–] Totemkauf 7 years ago

Since Obi-Wan referenced 'a man named Darth Vader' it implies that he learned about him at some point prior to the film. I mean , it's not like we ever see Obi-wan in episode III or anyone for that matter find out that Anakin is now going by the name Darth Vader. Obi-Wan may or may not have known that , even if he did or did not he was already aware by the start of this movie that Darth Vader was Anakin , and by that point had already long known that he survived.

Heck, looking at all the movies, it's likely that Qui-Gon told Obi-Wan about Anakin surviving , becoming Darth Vader, and a lot of what he had been up to.

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[–] chriscougar7 7 years ago

it's not like we ever see Obi-wan in episode III or anyone for that matter find out that Anakin is now going by the name Darth Vader

Obi-Wan and Yoda clearly find out in ep3 that Anakin goes by Vader which was needed as how else would Yoda know living in a hut on Dagobah

Obi-Wan clearly knew Anakin survived their fight

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[–] Totemkauf 7 years ago

It's been a while since I've seen the movie so I don't recall any dialogue in which Yoda and or Obiwan are aware of the name 'Vader'. Was it part of the recording of him attacking the temple?
As for how Yoda could now in V/VI is simple , Obi-Wan's apperation.

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[–] chriscougar7 7 years ago

OK, technically yeah Obi-Wans force ghost could communicate it with Yoda but that point is moot as you were correct in your memory. In the hologram recording they hear her called Vader, Yoda even tells Sidious he hears he has a new apprentice and later Sidious tells Yoda that Vader will become more powerful than both of them

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[–] WeAintFoundShin 7 years ago

To me the "PT" isn't canon.

I believe just going by the OT, Obi-Wan wounded Anakin/Vader, and he knew Anakin was going by Vader near the time of his twins' birth.

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[–] Kruleworld 7 years ago

and the revelation in Empire Strikes Back regarding Luke's parentage is where it all begins

they didn't HAVE to go that far, they could have had Yoda saying "No, lying he was. tricked you he did."

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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[–] JessDrew 7 years ago

However, when Episode IV was filming, Darth Vader really was the bad guy that killed Luke's father, so Obi-Wan not only told the truth in the movie, but he acted like he knew the situation. Retconning can be devastating if not done right, and the revelation in Empire Strikes Back regarding Luke's parentage is where it all begins.

ROTJ made it worse by adding the ridiculous "you were hidden from your father" thing. Now all the stuff about the Lightsaber ("your father wanted you to have this") was also BS given that Vader supposedly didn't know he had a son.

It would/could have worked if the dialogue had been crafted in a way to give weight to Obi Wan's 'certain point of view'. In ROTJ Vader should've taken a leaf from Kylo Ren's book and said something to Luke like "Anakin Skywalker was foolish and weak, so I destroyed him as surely as I destroyed the rest of the Jedi". This at least would give Obi Wan's viewpoint a greater sense of validity re a definitive separation between Anakin and Vader.

I also think Owen and Anakin should have had a closer relationship in the prequels, and that Vader should have known (or at least suspected) he had a son. That way it could have been Owen who insisted on raising Luke (against Jedi advice which Owen would stubbornly dismiss - right down to letting Luke keep the Skywalker surname), which would mean that Ben was residing nearby in the event that Vader would someday come to claim his son (rather than the pathetic 20-year Obi Wan/Yoda 'wait until the time is right' plan). Leia could've been born in secret (10 mins after Luke perhaps without anyone realising there was a twin) and given to Bail Organa whose wife had just lost her own child. Yoda would wash his hands of the entire matter and retire to Dagobah.

This way Luke and Obi Wan's presence on Tatooine would make sense, Leia's having been given to a well-known public figure would make sense, Yoda's reluctance to train Luke would make sense, and Vader's knowing he had a son (at any stage in the narrative) would allow for a conversation where he had expressed a desire to bequeath Luke his Lightsaber at some point.

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[–] hovaoc149 7 years ago

if vader was never intended to be lukes father than how come when aunt beru says 'he cant stay here he's got too much of his father in him", and uncle owen replies 'thats what worries me'. why would he be worried if lukes father was a good guy who was killed by vader? to me, uncle owens response is an amazing foreshadowing of the big reveal in empire strikes back.

also when obi wan tells luke how his father died, the way sir alec guiness delivers the reponse is incredible acting, his hesitation and expression obviously showing that he is really hiding the truth about what really went down.

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[–] ilyathe2nd 7 years ago

Yep, lots of evidence for Vader being considered as the father by Lucas all along. Makes the most sense.

What is more in contention is the sibling relationship between Luke and Leia as evidenced by their actions and some comments by Lucas in a few contemporary interviews, although all those could just be big ol' red herrings.

Suprise! Nothing to see here

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[–] avortac4 (3452) 3 years ago

No. No evidence, and those are not good points.

Neither of you have obviously studied early drafts and how lucas kept messing with things and changing things around - it's 100% true, that Vader was never meant to be Luke's father.

There's also lots of 'evidence' to the contracy, like what Obi-Wan actually says happened to his father, and so on.

But let's see WHY this is not evidence (yes, I am an ACTUAL commenter that discusses points instad of vomiting my wrong opinion with one-line comment and leaving).

1) Aunt Beru knows Luke has an ADVENTURER's soul, genes and blood in him. Nothing to do with Vader, everything to do with his father being a skilled, but reckless, wild spaceship pilot that liked exploring, adventuring and maybe even fighting. Just because he's a good pilot, doesn't mean he's meek and passive man.

2) Uncle Owen was simply worried that since Luke has similar personality and same kind of genes and blood in him, Luke is going to be reckless as well, and possibly going to get him killed. He is worried about Luke for Luke's sake and safety, not because he's afraid Luke will TRANSFORM into some kind of Empire-worshipping force-choker that lives in the 'dark side'.

Btw, what's the other side called? The films never mention a 'light side' or 'good side'.

3) No, it doesn't make sense. Try again.

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[–] Volley2020 7 years ago

Those are good points. Owen is definitely referencing a darker side of Luke's father, one I wish could have been explored by Luke's interactions with Owen a little further.

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[–] 7 years ago

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[–] MaximRecoil (4054) 6 years ago

>if vader was never intended to be lukes father than how come when aunt beru says 'he cant stay here he's got too much of his father in him", and uncle owen replies 'thats what worries me'. why would he be worried if lukes father was a good guy who was killed by vader?

Do you think Beru would have so casually mentioned Luke having "too much of his father in him" if she had Darth Vader in mind, who is a mass murderer? She was taking Luke's side in that conversation with Owen, and it doesn't make any sense if the father she's referring to is a mass-murdering dictator. Owen's equally casual "That's what worries me" response wouldn't make any sense either. A more appropriate response would be, "Have you gone mad?? Don't you ever let me hear you compare our boy Luke to that murderous psychopath again!!"

A far more believable explanation is that what worried Owen about Luke being like his father is that his father (Anakin Skywalker) lived a dangerous life which eventually got him killed (by Darth Vader).

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[–] 7 years ago

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[–] eyeguy72 7 years ago

Some people have fun speculating . You don't. That's cool.

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[–] giamatt02 7 years ago

There's a book called "The Rise of Darth Vader" which takes place immediately after Revenge of the Sith.
I don't even know if it's canon anymore, but it's a decent read. It deals with Anakin's struggles with accepting his new identity as Vader, right down to his troubles with his new suit.
Anyway, the last few pages of it deal with Obi Wan learning that Vader is still alive and wondering if he should move Luke from Tatooine.

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[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 3 years ago

He definitely heard that Vader lived and had been spreading terror throughout the galaxy for the past 19 years , also there is a little thing called the force

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