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It is ridiculous how many people do not get this movie

posted 4 years ago by MovieChatUser497 (18943)
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"When they get to her new place, the owner is home and he kisses her on the mouth. It’s clear Stephanie has some sort of relationship with this guy and Tony slut shames her over it. She cries and cries, because she has to repent if she wants to be a good girl."

https://www.tracking-board.com/saturday-night-fever-a-problematic-classic-in-film-history/

First of all whoever wrote this totally doesn't understand that Jay made Stephanie become his little sex toy in exchange for help with her career (very similar to the Harvey Weinstein scandal). Secondly Tony didn't "slut shame" her at all, he got her to confront her situation and realize what it was. Before the moving scene Stephanie was putting on this snobby bitch act to hide the horrible things she had to do to get to where she was and it wasn't her. Tony was quite possibly one of the few men in her life who actually cared about her and didn't just want sex out of her (I agree though his behavior later in the car was unacceptable and he did admit he behaved horribly and asked her to forgive him).

Then the author is too dumb to realize that Tony tried to keep Annette from putting out for the group but she wouldn't listen. Annette while I agree Tony should not have called her a c-nt was using Tony, she just wanted to be a "married sister" and Tony was a means to an end for her. They were both jerks to each other.

Finally yes there are some racist and sexist terms used in the film: THAT'S THE POINT! We the audience are not supposed to agree or condone the Bay Ridge Scene that Tony is a part of, that is why we support and sympathize with him at the end when he says he wants to get out and lead a better life.

I swear SJW's are so freaking stupid.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

First of all whoever wrote this totally doesn't understand that Jay made Stephanie become his little sex toy in exchange for help with her career (very similar to the Harvey Weinstein scandal).

I didn't see it that way. I've known men who acted just like Weinstein when it came to women, but they treated the women like absolute garbage.

I see it as Stephanie meeting Jay at work and being infatuated with the very worldly, very successful Jay. There's a close-up scene where you can see it in her eyes that she's not really over him. I don't know if Weinstein actually had any of the women he abused live with him, but Stephanie and Jay shared an apartment, so it was more than just using as a sex toy - something easily done without befouling one's own nest...

Jay is clearly quite good to Stephanie even after they broke up. He ends up giving her all their furniture (which she picked out) and continued to give her advice on how to improve herself by improving her language.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

OK maybe Jay isn't as bad as Weinstein but the fact still remains that he extorted sex out of her. At the place I work if the new girl needs help I just help her, I don't make her go down on me in return. He's still a creep and what is he like 20 years older than she is?

And just look at what he did to Stephanie, the moment that Tony made Stephanie confront her past she burst into tears.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

....but the fact still remains that he extorted sex out of her.

We don't know that, and it's my opinion he didn't. Jay was never shown being anything but solicitous towards Stephanie. If the writer or director wanted Jay to be a dick, they would have shown him far more snarky or distant in that one scene with him. Honestly, one could argue that perhaps it was Stephanie who used Jay.

He was friendly, upbeat, greeted Tony warmly, gave Stephanie the furniture, gave her advice, wished her well. Looked like the end of a normal, healthy, maybe even loving relationship that ran its course.

I think Jay's scene was specifically written that way to show that it was Tony who had the problem with the relationship. Tony showed all the earmarks of male insecurity when it comes to a woman and her past.

That's how I see it anyway.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Yet Stephanie burst into tears when tony confronted her about it. Stephanie clearly had a troubled past, the scene was about Stephanie and Jays relationship not the way tony treated Stephanie , tony was being a good friend to Stephanie. Watch the scene again it’s clear that Stephanie has to do things for Jay because he “helped her”, just because he didn’t slap her on the ass and grabbed her pussy when tony was in the room doesn’t mean he wasn’t a creep when no one else was watching . The only things Tony ever did to Stephanie that were out of line we’re turning her record off and his behavior in the back of the car

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Also notice how when Tony says "he likes to have you around for quick piece whenever he feels like it" Stephanie doesn't deny it, instead she tries to rationalize it. What Tony is saying to her is absolutely true. He was trying to get her to face the reality of the situation, before that scene Stephanie was putting on this rich, snotty bitch act because she was insecure with herself due to her past.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

Also notice how when Tony says "he likes to have you around for quick piece whenever he feels like it" Stephanie doesn't deny it, instead she tries to rationalize it.

Which doesn't mean in any way that it wasn't actually Stephanie who approached Jay and latched onto his life in order to improve hers. If there was a quid pro quo, there is no indicator in the movie who wanted what. Her "what I supposed to do man?" line could have meant it was she who initiated the relationship to "climb the ladder" because she saw no other way to advance. The business world is certainly rife with female sharks who have intentionally slept their way to the top quite with no compunction.

Jay was not written (or directed) to show any predatory traits whatsoever. I mean, I liked the guy...

Maybe she was having a crisis of conscience and her choices were getting the best of her - which is why she was crying to Tony.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

And Jay should have just helped her and not made her put out for it, and by the way he was married at the time. You know when there is a new girl at my work I just help her, I don't expect her to go down on me in return. He used Stephanie just like Stephanie used Tony, and Tony used Bobby and Tony's parents used both Frank and Tony, and Mr. Fusco used Tony, etc., etc., etc.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Sure Jay wasn't a rapist or anything but he was still a scumbag. The point is trading help at work for sex shouldn't have even been an option, it should have been "I see you are new at this, let me help you so we can set you up for success" and it should have ended there. Now once he was divorced from his wife and if he had an interest in Stephanie he could have asked her out for dinner or something and then seen where it went for there but that was not their relationship, their relationship was sleazy and it clearly damaged Stephanie psychologically and made her feel horrible about herself.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

Sure Jay wasn't a rapist or anything but he was still a scumbag. The point is trading help at work for sex shouldn't have even been an option, it should have been "I see you are new at this, let me help you so we can set you up for success" and it should have ended there

You're drawing conclusions of things that are not in evidence. We don't know the dynamic Jay had with Stephanie (and are you sure he was married? I don't remember that).

All we know as facts from what we saw are that:

They worked together.
They lived together.
He helped her (more than just getting in and out of the sack).
He was very solicitous to her.
She was in love with him.
The relationship ended.
She was troubled by the relationship.

That's it, the rest of what happened between them is pure supposition.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

The film made it quite clear but I’m sorry you didn’t pick up on it. It was very cut and dry that Stephanie was ashamed of her relationship with Jay

[–] R_Kane (15828) 4 years ago

Because, God forbid, that she be ashamed of, you know, herself; and of herself alone, as distinct of her relationship with some power broker.

BYW, the phrase is “cut and dried.” I know: those pesky literate details. Facts suck, don’t they? And not in a good way.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

What are you trying to say? She was justified in being ashamed, she used her body to get where she ended up and the she put on a snotty sophisticated bitch act with Tony

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Thank you, the post will remain the way it is, I am not going to edit it and I don’t care what you think . Also you realize I agree with you don’t you?

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

BTW , it’s “BTW” not “BYW”. I know: these pesky literate details. Facts suck, don’t they? And not in a good way.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

It was very cut and dry that Stephanie was ashamed of her relationship with Jay

We agree on this. She clearly was ambivalent about it and yes, perhaps ashamed.

You believe Jay was a Weinstein type scumbag who preyed on Stephanie's need for help. All I'm saying is that it could have been Stephanie who sought out Jay and used her feminine wiles to get what she wanted from Jay.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

It’s very possible that Stephanie did seek Jays help and when she went to him Jay was like “sure I’ll help you.... for a price”

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

It’s very possible that Stephanie did seek Jays help and when she went to him Jay was like “sure I’ll help you.... for a price”

No one said that didn't happen. I'm just leaving open the possibility that it was either a mutual arrangement or that it was Stephanie's plan to get ahead - either of which would explain her guilt.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Right the exact details of the relationship are left ambiguous, what we know is:

- Jay is ridiculously older than Stephanie
- Jay and Stephanie had a sexual relationship while Jay was married
- The way Stephanie got ahead in her work was by her relationship with Jay
- Stephanie is ashamed of what happened
- Stephanie took out her insecurities of her past on Tony and Bobby

No matter which way you slice it one of them used the other (or maybe both). I would also like to point out that IF it was Stephanie's idea to sleep around in exchange for help with work Jay should have rejected the sexual favors. If it was Jay's idea to initiate the deal then Stephanie should have gone to human resources. Regardless of who initiated the deal they were both behaving in an inhumane manner. (I'm a little tougher on Jay because he was far older than Stephanie and Stephanie was clearly out of her element)

Anyways bringing this back to my original point: Tony wasn't "slut shaming" Stephanie, he wasn't acting like some jealous boyfriend, he was legitimately concerned for her. He made her confront the reality of her past and in the end he helped her. (whether he chose appropriate language in this scene is another matter completely). Many people misinterpret that scene (which maybe I did when I was like 11), and that's the point I was trying to make.

[–] strntz (10775) 4 years ago

I understand your point, but I simply disagree with it.

..he (Tony) was legitimately concerned for her. He made her confront the reality of her past and in the end he helped her.

She was crying and clearly upset, yet he offered no comfort; just accusations. Tony was chock full of male insecurities, and he unloaded with both barrels on Stephanie. You think he was concerned for Stephanie's choices and that's fine, but I just see that differently.

What I see is a guy who was upset that the girl he wanted had slept with a guy who was older than Tony, smarter than Tony, more successful than Tony, more articulate than Tony - and he saw himself coming up short by comparison. He probably also wasn't thrilled the way Stephanie looked at Jay as he passed by her. IMO, Tony was insanely jealous of Jay.

I honestly think that if Tony was more concerned about Stephanie's choices, he would have worded his tirade differently.

Well, I've said my piece and feel I've made my thoughts clear enough.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

Two people trying to get through the world, helping each other in different ways, although I think of it more transactional than a relationship.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

So women should use their bodies to get ahead in life??? Geez dude it seems you have issues with women? What’s the matter? Can’t get any?

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

I think we mostly agree. No one "made" Stephanie do anything, she chose to shack up with the guy for her own reasons. Women use sex to get things because guys always want sex. It's not good or bad it's hormonal, a billion years of evolution. My college Anthro professor, a female PhD, used to say that men compete for women, women compete for things. That's how the world works. That's why you see ugly rich guys like Trump with hot women like Melan-whatever. Now some women get buyer's remorse or don't want to take responsibility for their decisions and play the victim game because today's culture fetishizes victimhood and white knights always fall for it, it's an easy way to twist people to their personal agenda. Christians are victims. Women are victims. Minorities are victims. Conservatives are victims. Everybody's a victim. Stephanie wasn't a victim. Tony was looking for a relationship with someone he could respect, an equal partner, and was hurt and disappointed that Stephanie wasn't the girl he believed her to be so he lashed out. Annette wanted Tony but didn't respect her probably because she didn't respect herself.

To the other point, yes, the characters were definitely not politically correct. But we can't single out SJW's for doing exactly the same thing that every other generation has been doing for centuries and that is trying to make the world their personal safe space through censorship. Catholics, conservatives, Moral Majority, sjw's, white supremacists, communists, corporations, and more have or continue to manipulate or control through censorship.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Oh believe me man I am an atheist and Christians piss me the f-ck off with their persecution complex. The war on Christmas is ridiculous especially considering I hear "Rudolf the red nose reindeer" in every store I go into and plenty of people have their lawns decorated with Christmas decorations. No one is telling anyone not to celebrate Christmas, some people however are choosing to respect everyone's beliefs and to some Christians that means they are being persecuted.

And the guy was at least 20 years older than Stephanie, Stephanie was young and was goal oriented. She wanted to be a sophisticated woman of Manhattan and Jay took advantage of that so he could get himself a little f-ck toy. Sure he may have treated her well but he was cheating on his wife with Stephanie, he didn't care about her, he just wanted her body. And that's the theme of the film, people are always trying to "jam you into what they want you to be" and you've got to be strong and do what "you think is right" because "we're living in a world of fools breaking us down". This is no different than Tony's parents using him for money, or Tony and his buddies using Bobby for the car.

Yes other groups play the victim card, but in this case it is SJW's pitching a fit over a film they don't even understand (well the author doesn't understand) and that is the topic of this discussion. If you'd like to start a topic about how Christians play the victim card I am all in.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

Both you and the author of that article make Stephanie a victim by default but I'm not clear on why? Assuming she is a victim is highly sexist, you can't even give her credit for making her own decisions. The only way Stephanie is a victim is if you believe women really are emotionally and intellectually weaker.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Where did I say women are emotionally and intellectually weaker??? This has nothing to do with her being a woman, it has to do with she was young, she wanted a career away from Bay Ridge and Jay took advantage of it so he could get some action. This is the entire theme of the film. What narrative would you rather have? That it's acceptable to use sex to move your way up in the world?

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

"That's why you see ugly rich guys like Trump with hot women like Melan-whatever."

Her name is Melania by the way.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

Okay, whatever.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

What narrative would I rather have? None. I don't need a narrative. Stephanie wasn't forced to do anything, she chose. Equality means treating people equally, not white knighting for girls because you think they are the weaker sex and are victims by default.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

First of all that is a strawman (nowhere did either myself or the film imply women are weaker) which I don’t appreciate and yes that was not the point of the film so maybe you should just stick with Grease. And she’s the First Lady of the United States

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

I hate to break it to you but Stephanie was prostituting herself. You are taking a mile long detour around the obvious to convince yourself she was a victim. But you can put away the white armor because she was fully aware of what she was doing and frankly I don't have a problem with it. We all sell ourselves in one way or another.

Oh, and look up strawman, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Actually I know exactly what it means, you intentionally misrepresented what I said to make it sound irrational . I NEVER once said that women are weaker and neither did the film ("not white knighting for girls because you think they are the weaker sex and are victims by default." --> Nowhere did I ever even imply that, that is a statement you came up with on your own which makes me question the way you view women, seems you have some gender issues yourself). Stephanie did realize she was selling herself but the thing is she never should have had to sell herself. Jay should have either helped the new girl who was having a hard time or not helped her. Extorting sex out of her is the worst thing he could have done. Stephanie had two choices either A) Become Jay's sex toy or B) Go back to Bay Ridge. There should have been a third option: Accept Jay's help and not put out. There are situations where everyone has been out of their element and didn't know what they are doing, it doesn't imply that your gender is weak or that you are a weak person, no one is an expert on everything.

Look kid the movie is all about people using each other. Jay used Stephanie, Stephanie used Tony, Tony used Bobby, the hardware store used Tony, Tony's family used both Tony and Frank, and it goes on and on and on. This isn't just my interpretation the film spelled it out quite clearly. Again this message was spelled out pretty well but if it went over your head just stick with Grease.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

No. I looked at your posting history and see a trend where everyone is a victim. That's not my gig and I don't believe in it. And IMO you are closer to the so called SJW that you complained about than you'd like to admit. I hope you grow out of it and realize that people are people. Pretty people often sell their looks one way or another. Smart people sell their brains. Athletic people sell their bodies in another way. That doesn't make them victims just because they make choices differently than you, or choices that don't fit your "narrative." I'm out.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Another straw man, I never said that. It’s the theme of the film people use each other and try to jam you into what they want you to be. How you equate that to bitching and moaning about a victim complex is your own issue, you have a very weird way of connecting the dots. No one is talking about a persecution complex except yourself. Tony was being used but he picked himself up and did what he wanted to do with his life, he very much did not play the victim and how you label that playing the victim is beyond me. Neither my thread nor the film are about being a victim, it’s about having the confidence in yourself to not let society or someone else turn you into what they want you to be. In order for your argument to be even close to valid you’d have to point out where either myself or the movie said “you need to not do anything to improve your situation and that you are owed something by society” that is what an SJW says, never did I once suggest that, apparently putting words in my mouth is your primary debate tactic. Seriously kid you don’t understand this film, stick with Grease.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

[deleted]

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

https://moviechat.org/general/General-Discussion/5dc454c252334636e5cafafa/Todays-PC-culture-and-the-Right-and-Left?reply=5dc65cec01231645eeeb1651

Looks like it’s you who has a victim mentality. seriously dude get over yourself, you aren’t the morality police, you don’t get to decide who’s a racist or who’s playing the victim. You aren’t that important

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Not very similar to the Harvey Weinstein scandal. Harvey just showed up at actresses houses and hotel rooms and started forcing himself on them or jerked off in front of them. In other words, a sexual assault. 🤮

Stephanie moved in with Jay. Yes their relationship was transactional. Yes there was a power differential. This is more akin to what Roger Ailes engaged in, sexual harassment.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

The only difference is that Harvey Weinstein was more vulgar and more aggressive. The point I was making was both men extorted vulnerable women for sexual favors.

[–] McQualude (4231) 4 years ago

She didn't live with the guy, he paid for her apartment and furniture, it was just a transaction. Sex for a place to live.

[–] MovieChatUser497 (18943) 4 years ago

Stephanie flat out said “and I was living with him for a little while”

[–] Who (5146) 4 years ago

This film should be praised by SJWs for calling out all the oppressive and abusive behavior going on against women and working class people in the ‘70s.

- Stephanie took that receptionist job in the city because she wanted out of the married by 20, babies by 21, dead end choice for working class women in Bay Ridge. She wanted to be like the sophisticated tea drinking ladies in the office but she didn’t come from their wealth and privilege. It reminds me of the main character in Working Girl who got a business degree but was not taken seriously because she wasn’t Ivy League or upper class.

- Tony was equally trapped in a dead-end paint store low wage career. His father was angry because he was laid off from his construction job. Tony had the disco to escape to, but his father just bitterly sat around the house like a discarded old shoe.

- Annette was raped. Her only vision for her future was marrying Tony. When she saw Tony and Stephanie dance at the contest, she saw all her hopes disappear. So she drank and took pills to sooth her broken heart, then recklessly flirted with those two dufuses in a last ditch attempt to make Tony jealous.

Stephanie and Annette’s stories show the sad, narrow choices for working class women living in the boroughs. Catholicism also plays a role in classifying women as saints or sluts.

Stephanie learned to type which was her ticket across the bridge but it only got her foot in the door. She is not college educated but tries to fake it by peppering her conversation with mispronounced big words and celebrity name drops. This impresses Tony and the disco crowd but makes her look naive and uneducated in her workplace.

I am sure there are plenty of people who started off in Bay Ridge and ended up going on to do great things, but this movie isn’t about them. The film centers on these wastrels at the disco. Tony is the exception because they gave him a sequel where he followed his talent and passion to success.

[–] Lucia2016 (515) 12 days ago

''Stephanie learned to type which was her ticket across the bridge but it only got her foot in the door. She is not college educated but tries to fake it by peppering her conversation with mispronounced big words and celebrity name drops. This impresses Tony and the disco crowd but makes her look naive and uneducated in her workplace.

Good last post all these points i finally picked up on i used to see this as the John Travolta Dancy flick but there are Rocky and Midnight Cowboy themes in this film.

Like even though the film ends on an optimistic note as she say's to Tony 'what are you going to do exactly when you get there?

It's all well and good having aspirations and guts to leave and go to the Big City but in reality he will end up a waiter or some low level job living in a shitty apartment far away from his friends and family

Her situation was so bad that she took a chance to make a better life but in the end pimped herself to get a just above entry position and something of a better life but she will never be accepted in those circles because they won't respect a gutter rat wannabe social climber in their eyes. You can take the girl out of the town.

In the end she both realize where they were from is shit but also the good life is out of reach so you left with just two people surviving a little be better than before, which is a win i suppose

It's a sad fact of life unfortunately well made in this film

[–] blue1981 (6407) 12 days ago

I've never seen it but I do want to watch it.