MovieChat Forums > The Duellists (1978) Discussion > The only historical inacurracy?

The only historical inacurracy?


There is very little in "The Duellists" that can be considered historically inaccurate. The uniforms and equipment are especially well researched and rendered. However, after doing a bit of study, I have come across what may be the only real historical inaccuracy in the entire film.

In Conrad's "The Duel" D'Hubert is mentioned as belonging to the 4th Hussars (a blue and red uniform) and Feraud to the 7th Hussars (a green and red uniform with gold trim). However, in Scott's "The Duellists" the filmmakers outfit D'Hubert in the uniform of the 3rd Hussars (a gray uniform with silver trim). This is of no real consequence except when one considers that D'Hubert and Feraud could not have historically had their encounter in the Russian snow in either the short story or the film.

After the horseback duel in Lubeck in 1806 the narrator states:

"Feraud was posted to Spain. D’Hubert remained in northern Europe. Six years later the Emperor’s Grand Army regrouped for Armageddon."

Being in the 7th Hussars, Feraud never would have gone to Spain. It is the 7th Hussars that in fact remained in northern Europe. D'Hubert would have gone to Spain with the 3rd (film) or 4th (short story) Hussars. Neither the 3rd or 4th ever served in Russia so the encounter in the snow would not have happened. They could, however, have conceivably run into one another around the time of Leipzig (The Battle of the Nations) in Germany in 1813, but as the story and film makes clear, "the duels of nations take absolute precedence."

The fault for this historical discrepancy lies more with Joseph Conrad than with the filmmakers. Conrad clearly places D'Hubert in Russia when in fact the 4th Hussars never served there.

For those interested, the post-1800 battle records of the three units are as follows:

3rd Hussars (D'Hubert's regiment in the film):

1805: Elchingen and Ulm (Note that in the film Laura asks D'Hubert, "Why weren't you killed at Elchingen?" D'Hubert responds "it was a hard day for the regiment.")
1806: Jena, Magdebourg, and Gollup
1807: Bartenstein, Langenheim, Hoff, and Guttstadt
1808: Tudela (Spain)
1809: Calcabellos, Tanoris, Banos, Tamanies and Alba de Tormes (Spain)
1810: Ciudad-Rodrigo, Almeida, Leria and Alcoluto (Spain)
1811: Redhina and Fuentes-de-Onoro (Spain)
1812: Arapiles (Spain)
1813: Vittoria (Spain)
1813: Leipzig
1814: Brienne, Montereau, and Sevenans
1815: Belfort

4th Hussars (D'Hubert's regiment in Conrad's short story):

1800: Neubourg, Ampfingen and Hohenlinden
1805: Austerlitz
1806: Jena and Lubeck
1807: Liebstadt and Mohrungen
1809: Alcanitz and Belchite (Spain)
1811: Stella, Chiclana, and Sagonte (Spain)
1813: Yecla and Col d'Ordal (Spain)
1813: Gross Beeren and Leipzig
1814: Lons-le-Saulnier, Saint Georges, and Lyon
1815: Ligny and Waterloo

7th Hussars (Feraud's regiment in both the film and short story):

1800: Engen, Nesselwangen, Feldkirch, and Salzbourg
1805: Mariazell, Affleng, and Austerlitz
1806: Gera, Zehbenick, Prentzlow, Stettin, Lubeck, Czenstowo, and Golymin
1807: Eylau, Heilsberg, and Konisberg
1809: Peising, Ratisbonne, Raab, Wagram and Znaim
1812: Vilna, Smolensk, Ostrowro, and Borodino (Russian Campaign)
1813: Borna, Altenbourg, Leipzig, and Hanau
1814: Vauchamps, Montereau, Reims, Laon, and Paris
1815: Fleurus and Waterloo







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Bravo Monsieur !

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Congratulations for your excellent knowledge of the 3rd and 7th Hussars regimental histories.You are right the 3rd,former Esterhazy,was never in Russia.
I noticed another inacurracy.At the beginning of the film when in Strasburg in 1800 consequently before Bonaparte was crowned Emperor of the French you will notice on d'Hubert's shako the imperial eagle which did not appear before 1804.Do you agree ?
I also read in a french history magazine that J.Conrad based his short story on a true event,unfortunately I do not remember the mames of the real protagonists.
This being said it is a beautiful film superbly shot in Perigord.

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"By the Sword" by Richard Cohen states the short story written by Conrad was based on two officers, Captain Fournier and Captain Dupont, who maintained an ongoing duel for close to 20 years.

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[deleted]

Wow, very impressive bit of research there. Are you a historian? I studied a little about the French revolution and Napoleon, but not too much. My main interests were Ancient Greece and Rome.

Aside from this little discrepancy, did you enjoy the film?





What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem.

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There are a handful of historical innacuracies in the movie.

As you pointed out, the d'Hubert's regiment did not see service in Russia. However, this could be written down as d'Hubert being on detached duty as a staff officer (he had been seconded to Bernadotte's staff in an earlier scene) and not actually serving with his unit.

As Buxurs points out, the uniforms are not entirely accurate. The shako plate is wrong for the early scenes, set during the Consulate, as is the shako itself. If I'm not mistaken, at the time of the earlier scenes the correct headgear would have been a colpack rather than a shako. This one can be chalked up to the tight budget restrictions Scott was working under.

Also, when Feraud's seconds arrive at d'Hubert's estate to issue the final challenge, John McEnery's character mentions meeting d'Hubert after Ratisbon. The only scene where the two characters both appear took place in 1801 while Ratisbon was fought in 1809. The movie also implies that d'Hubert and Feraud, and presumably Feraud's comrades, didn't meet between the horseback duel in 1806 and the cossack interupted duel of 1812, making a meeting after Ratisbon unlikely.

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I think they made Ferraud's 7th Hussars the chaps in red an blue while D'Hubert wore grey. Lovely uniforms but I'm sad if they weren't that accurate.

"It is not enough to like a film. You must like it for the right reasons."
- Pierre Rissient

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Dear Vohojohn,

I can address your uniform concerns if I may.

My first Hollywood job was at Western Costume Company at the corner of Melrose and Van Ness (westerncostume.com) where the fancy Paramount gate is now, and my first assignment was on this picture. Western was a huge six story costume house jointly owned by all the major studios where they warehoused all their period costumes from movies all the way back to the silent era, including all the armies of movie history.

When a costumer or designer starts a period movie the first stop is at Western for research in the extensive library and to see what is already hanging on the rack.

As stated, 'The Duellist' had a small budget. So, the uniforms used in the movie was dictated by what was available at Western Costume. We did our research and did the best we could on the costumes. It was easier to change the regiment than make new costumes. Keith and Harvey were wearing costumes originally made for movies dating back to the twenties and thirties. I.E. King Vidor's 'War and Peace.' You can't imagine how many rotten old pants split during those dueling scenes. We did make some new costumes for the leads but we still had to match the uniforms we had the most of. My bona fides? Look me up on IMDB.

Sincerely,

Ted Sewell

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Thanks Ted, very interesting post, and those uniforms are great, very beautiful. Do you know what other movies used this same uniforms?

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Mr. Sewell, thank you for your post. This is one of my favorite period films, and the wonderful costumes contribute a large part to its imagery. I never would have guessed this film was made on a small budget.

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Thanks from me as well, Mr. Sewell.

I just ordered a copy of this movie on DVD, by the way.

Ozy


And I stood where I did be; for there was no more use to run; And again I lookt with my hope gone.

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I just ordered a copy of this movie on DVD, by the way.


You won't be sorry. I noticed a big improvement in the colour rendering on DVD.

Thanks also from me Mr Sewell.

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Call me a cynic and, rest assured, I am merely playing Devil's Adovcate and am in no way impugning Ted Sewell (especially as imdb says he is a lawyer in Houston!) but it is interesting to me that many people have taken this post at face value and thanked the person for this comment without seeming to confirm that this statement from tedslaw is accurate.

It would seem a strange thing to pretend to be working for a costume company which supplied a small film (if it was bogus I would expect someone to claim they were much higher up and influential) , so no doubt there is truth to this post from tedslaw. However the person did say check out their bona fides and that is what I am doing.

There is indeed a person on imdb called Ted Sewell who worked for Western Costume Company, but no where on that page does it say he worked on The Duellists. Of course as a 24 year old in his first job as part of a large US firm it is probably unlikely that his relatively small role would be recorded on the credits of a UK film. Nowhere on the credits of The Duellists is the Western Costume Company mentioned (or Ted Sewell for that matter) and The Duellists is not mentioned as one of the films the company worked on on their website (again not a huge clincher as the firm has been going for 100 years and a tiny British film would not be high on their list).

The credits for The Duellists mainly list production in London, Scotland and France and does not mention many US connections. The distributor was the American firm Paramount and Ridley Scott mentions in the commentary that they supplied the budget of $900,000 but there does not seem to be any other American companies involved. The credits do mention Simpsons of Piccadilly which is a London clothing supplier. Maybe they were merely sponsors but I wonder if they were also suppliers of some of the costumes on the film.

It seems surprising that a low budget film which was shot mainly in France and Scotland in a short time for about 6 weeks would bring the bulk of the uniforms over from West Coast America. Surely they could source them from Europe or the UK. There were also other Napoleonic productions in the UK since King Vidor's 1956 War and Peace, notably the 1972 to 1974 BBC TV mini series of War and Peace. Would not Ridley Scott have sourced the costumes locally from the BBC first?

It seems highly unlikely to me that the production company would find by chance the right number of French Hussar uniforms still in existence from a 20+ year old production in the US (although it is possible that these expensive uniforms were kept) and they just happened to have enough and for a similar regiments to the ones the film makers required?

Finally, in the DVD commentary Ridley Scott credits the costume designer Tom Rand and states that Rand had the costumes made in Italy. Perhaps many of the extras' costumes could have come from a US house, but it seems odd that if they had specially made costumes in Italy that these wouldn't be provided for the stars Keitel and Carradine rather than giving the stars costumes from the 1920s and 1930s, as tedslaw states.

Again, it would be a strange thing to make all this up and everything tedslaw said is still quite possible, but I always like to check things out, especially things that appear on the internet.( I don't know how many times I have seen friends post unsubstantiated nonsense as fact on Facebook - from fake photos of current events to bogus deaths of celebrities). It is part of my university training and they way I was brought up to never take anything at face value and to always check and verify.

Of course, if I wanted to be a real cynic, one could argue that Ted Sewell was indeed involved with The Duellists, but how do we know that the tedslaw who posted this comment is the real Ted Sewell?

I do not wish to be disrespectful or to upset anyone. I have merely engaged in an exercise of research and intellectual curiosity to make sure facts are correct. I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but I need more evidence from tedslaw for this post. I hope Ted Sewell takes this in the right spirit and appreciates my scepticism (which surely the law teaches people to always check facts) and he will be able to see that it is OK to be sceptical and he can easily refute my comments in the academically good natured way it is intended.

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Scott's comments on the DVD extras-

Ridley Scott: The great military costumes were made in Italy at Peruzzi. I learnt a big lesson in film making: I paid for the costumes, they owned them. I thought, "Wait a minute! That doesn't work for me." I was furious about that. Just the costumes for these two guys [ Keitel and Carradine ] at the time [ 1977 ] cost me 19,000 pounds. I said, "How come they own them?" They said, "That's the deal."

Western Costume was not involved.

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The Spain thing makes no sense, since the big campaigns of 1807 were awaiting the Hussars, but one can assume D'Hubert could have transferred to another regiment (or been on staff) by 1812.

Does it ever say in the movie that D'Hubert was in the 4th? Because I don't know if they had defined uniforms for everyone by 1800/1801, or that came several years later. Also, were the 3rd Hussars near Lubeck at this time?

-
You did just fine, Clarence. Now go git yo'self some hot cornbread!

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Regarding Feraud's posting to Spain, the narration is only that he was posted, not his regiment. It could have been a staff appointment. At this point in their careers, both officers were moving up. At the beginning of the story, D'Hubert is seconded to the general's staff, and so, not necessarily travelling with his regiment. By Luebeck, we learn that he's to be promoted and given command of a troop. So I don't think that's a particular inaccuracy.

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