I saw the 1976 version of Sybil.I want to see the 2007 version.I am going to get the DVD of both the 1976 version and the 2007 version.
Her mother was just plain mean.
What was her mother's problem?
Why didn't she like Sybil?
Why did she abuse Sybil?
Where was Sybil's father?
Did the grandma know what Sybil was being abused?
Did the book explain why her mom was like she was?
In a nutshell, Sybil's mother was a schizophrenic who had been ambivilent at best about having a child at all. She was capable at times of being rather nurturing, but at her worst should not have been entrusted with a pet rock, let alone a baby. She had herself been frustrated in her dreams of a musical career, and it's suggested on another thead that her later abuse of her daughter was an ironic and horrifying outlet for her creative side. Sybil's father was, in his own much later words, "so overwhelmed by Hattie" that he simply found it easier to turn a blind eye. Grandma's non-intervention is a bit of an interesting case. She did have a genuinely good and loving relationship with Sybil, but also maintained a "no interference" policy when it came to how her son and daughter-in-law chose to raise the child. I suspect this was due to a combination of advaincing age, having been bullied herself by her husband, and the very different attitudes about interfering in a parent/child relationship.
shareI don't think Sybil's grandmother was even aware of the abuse.
shareI think you are right about the Grandmother not knowing about the abuse. Hattie/Mattie seemed to have kept a "closed shop" in that the abuse seemed to happen in selected places which were designed to keep her separate from other eyes. Grandma may have had hints but nothing that she could put her finger on to say for sure there was abuse.
Grandma was is a sheltered position within the house due to her husband being so outspoken and her own illness. If Grandpa intimidated the other household members, he surely intimidated his own wife even more.
There is no evidence any of that is true. The "Sybil" story was a complete fabrication.
shareThere's no evidence of that either. You're probably repeating journalist Debbie Nathan's words, who in 2011 published her own interpretations of the facts, of which many were already known when the Schreiber book came out in 1973. Alternative reads about Sybil are 'Sybil In Her Own Words (2011) and 'After Sybil' (2013).
"I don't discriminate between entertainment
and arthouse. A film is a goddam film."
I would hope that someone YOU know and love is protected from the war of the world like abuse. Your pish posh attitude : it didn't happen! reminds me of people denying the horrors of World War 2 in Germany.
shareStudying psychology for almost a decade, Sybil and her story was a subject widely covered over those years. All the professors and PhD's in psychology had different takes on the case some agreed with Dr. Wilbur’s diagnosis but more were against her diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder or what Dr Wilber called then Multiple Personality Disorder. The fact that Sybil (Shirley Ardell Mason) was physically, verbally and emotionally abused by her mother Martha Mason (Mattie) and possibly sexually abused as well, but Mattie was eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia. Schizophrenics often suffer from additional mental health illnesses such as anxiety disorders, major depressive illness, manic depression (bipolar disorder), substance use disorder and what we call obsessive compulsion personality disorder now, as well as seizures, which some psychologist and psychiatrist account for "Sybil" blackouts and no memory of the event. It can be symptoms that typically come on gradually, begin in young adulthood to late teens, and last a long time. Shirley's mother never got help she needed. Her father, Walter Wingfield Mason was a weak man afraid of his wife rages and strange behavior, he adored his daughter but feared his wife. Both of her parents were restrict Seventh-Day Adventist and raised their daughter in the same restrictive religion, and that also isolated her from her peers and classmates. There is no doubt that Shirley was abused, just a lot of doubt about Dr Wilbur's diagnosis.
Dr. Wilber practiced Freudian psychology and some of Freud's theories of three types of personality are id, ego and superego. According to Freud's psychoanalytic theory, our personality develops through a series of stages, each characterized by a certain internal psychological conflict. Freud's theories were at their height in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's until the early 70's. Freud's ideas have since been met with criticism, in part because of his singular focus on sexuality as the main driver of human personality development. Now, 86% of psychologist and psychiatrist no longer believe in Freud’s theories. Schizophrenia and other mental illnesses are heredity. So, Shirley most likely was born with it and then developed other mental illnesses from her mother’s abuse.
It’s a shame that Shirley didn’t live in our time, instead of drugged with barbiturate/phenobarbital. Although currently there is no cure for schizophrenia, it can be treated and managed with medication, diet and supportive therapies. She could’ve lead a fairly normal lifestyle. Balancing her sugar intake, adding essential omega-3 and -6 fats, increasing her antioxidants and taking vitamins and supplements she could’ve lead a normal life, gotten married and had children. Shirley relied too heavily on Dr Wilbur medications and therapy until Wilbur died from complications of Parkinson's Disease. She lived in isolation with only one person to care for her after Wilbur's death. She was an amazing artist though.
But the grandmother surely heard the hollering, and saw the injuries on Sybil that are not easily "explained away" by accidents such as: broken larynx, dislocated shoulder, black eyes.
But I do agree: The grandmother probably had the old-time views of staying out of parents' "business" .
And I also think she was afraid of Hattie in a way (understandable) and was afraid of even being booted out of the house, her being sick and alone may have made her even more afraid.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush."
It's been a while since I read the book, but I do remember that Sybil's mother had been schizophrenic. The book described some of her catatonic periods. Sybil's father was very passive, and not involved in the child rearing of Sybil. His own father had been a bully... if memory serves, a fire-and-brimstone type preacher.
Hattie had no business caring for a child. She was extremely sick. I can recall horrible descriptions of abuse towards Sybil, including molestation by her mother. I remember a section that described Sybil's father coming into her bedroom in his robe, but with his privates exposed.
Sybil was described as being "depleted". Meanwhile, her different personalities took on different aspects of her true self and her emotions. There is a chart somewhere in the book with the names of all the personalities. One of the 2 males was named "Sid".
I read the book before I watched the movie. To me, the movie is more confusing simply because the viewer can't read descriptions of all the different personalities.
-The Divine Ms Slim
"I make him an offer he no refuse"
Her mother didn't really molest her in the sense of trying to arouse Sybil or herself, but she did torture her by inserting various objects into her vagina. There's indications that Willard might have felt some sexual feelings toward her (like stopping her from putting salve on his feet because it probably made him "feel funny") but he and Hattie had relations in front of her for at least 9 years until she was finally moved into her own room.
But yeh, Hattie was unfit to be a mother, at least without close supervision and intervention; unfortunately the small town mentality and social backwardness of the time precluded that.
**********
Dark Knight.. yes it's great; I can't wait for the sequel "Dark and Stormy Knight."
I appreciate this, indy. Now I am remembering more sections from the book. Such as Sybil being in the bedroom with her parents till she was 9 or so, and the parents being sexually active in front of her. I'd also forgotten her father's name - Willard.
I recall that one of the objects Hattie had inserted into Sybil was a knife handle. In the book there were illustrations done by Sybil, and I know there was some artwork that contained pictures of knives. In particular, I recall a large hand with the index finger extended, which was supposed to have represented her mother's hand. That was why the molestation theme stuck out in my mind; the picture looked eerie to me. I think the term "torture" is very appropriate.
-The Divine Ms Slim
"I make him an offer he no refuse"
Never happened... Both parents were Seventh-Day Adventist who only use sex for procreation. Dr Wilbur was a Freudian psychiatrist who believed everything is sexual, just like Freud and Dr Wilbur took the things that Shirley (Sybil) said and misinterpreted her dreams while she was under hypnosis. All of this has been debunked by the psychologist two decades ago.
There is no doubt that Sybil was sexually abused but only at the hands of her mother, Mattie. While her father Walter was a very passive man fearful of his wife strange behavior and rages and being a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist believed his wife was possessed by the devil. Both parents came from small Midwestern communities who were unsophisticated to the ways of the world. Because Mattie's illness went undiagnosed for too long, she remained a schizophrenic until the day she died and they didn't have the knowledge in how to treat someone with a severe mental illness at that time. Kind of sad life.
She did molest Sybil, inserting objects forcibly into a persons vagina or rectum is molestation/rape and is considered so in most if not every state and Hattie (Mattie) would also insert her finger into Sybil's (Shirly's) Vaginal along with the other objects, so, her mother DID molest her. Molestation unfortunaly can come in many forms, it's not just about innapropriate touching, in my opinion (having worked with survivors of sexual abuse)having Sybil sleep in her parents bedroom while they were having sex was a form of sexual abuse, especilly when her father (naked) put her over his knee and spanked her for interupting. Hattie also sexualy abused other children, in the book Sybil (Shirly Mason in reality) recounts her mom playing "horsey" with the neighborhood girls, and one incident Sybil saw her mother on her bed naked with a infant boy between her legs. Hattie (Mattie) was in no way capable of taking care of Sybil. The sexual abuse began as early as when Sybil was six months old. I just graduated with a Bacholar's in Social Work and this book has shocked me to my core, even though I have an undedrstanding of Mental illness I have a hard time having any sypathy for Hattie.
shareI believe what 'indy go blue44' means is that Hattie did not abuse Sybil to achieve any kind of sexual thrill; she did it because her schizophrenia made her do odd things. Perhaps, Hattie's deranged mind lead her to believe little men were trapped inside Sybil's vagina. There have been cases of schizophrenics tearing out their heating systems or digging large holes in their backyards because they become convinced men are trapped inside them and need to be let out. It's weird, but that's why we call them crazy and why many of them need to be in an institution, far away from people and other living things.
shareHattie's abuse most likely did not have anything to do with sexual gratification. But intent does not classify molestation, whether Hattie intended to molest her daughter or not she did.
shareI have to agree that it was the illness, and not the desire for sexual gratification that lead to the molestation, I just finished reading the book and recall that on several occasions Hattie would keep saying to herself, "I have to do it!" over and over while she abused and tortured Sybil in various ways, and, once done, she would say, "I did it!" triumphantly as she laughed to herself, very creepy! The abuses she inflicted upon Sybil all have a very ritualistic manner to them, and once the ritual was carried out the compulsion would go away for a time. Usually I can sympathize with an individual who is so clearly ill, but Hattie should have been made to suffer every injury she ever inflicted on her daughter and then been left in some cold dark hole somewhere for the rest of her life. Anybody who could do that to a kid just doesn't deserve to live.
~*Copulate me nonviolently with a mechanical gas powered tree cutting device!*~
Hattie did have lesbian affairs with "working girls" in the town while Sybil was in tow, but it seems that she didn't deliberately put Sybil in a position to witness the acts. I won't argue that her sexual organs weren't invaded or argued, but in the legal sense of molestation being an attempt to achieve sexual gratification for herself or Sybil, it seems more a case of battery rather than molestation. There's no mention of Hattie masturbating herself or Sybil or of having Sybil do anything to her. I also won't argue that having sex in front of her wasn't a form of sexual abuse. In that I mostly blame her father; whereas Hattie was mentally ill, there wasn't a damn thing wrong with him to justify or explain his behavior.
shareI wondered if Hattie's mutilation of Sybil was done in what Hattie's twisted mind thought of as "for her own good." It seems similar to families that perform female circumcision on their daughters. The object of female circumcision is to prevent the female from enjoying sex, and remaining pure for her future husband. The culture justifies it as a method for preventing women from extramarital sex.
Hattie might have had the same idea for Sybil. She might have felt ashamed of her own sexual acts (or sexual abuse, because it's not uncommon for abuse victims to blame themselves for the abuse). She didn't want Sybil to feel that shame so she made it so Sybil would feel no pleasure from sex. If Sybil felt no pleasure, then she would not feel ashamed if anyone forced himself on her. Hattie might have seen herself as protecting Sybil by allowing Sybil to exonerate herself from blame.
The ironic thing was Hattie was doing exactly what she was trying to protect Sybil from. And it didn't work: part of the reason Sybil needed the other personalities was that she couldn't allow herself to feel angry about what her mother did to her.
You do know the story has been proven to be fabricated, don't you?
There was NO evidence at all the real Sybil, Shirley Mason, was abused at all by the mother. She did come from a strict religious background and felt isolated because of it, but her problems, which were nothing remotely close to MPD or DID, stemmed from a PHYSICAL problem called pernicious anemia. The doctor involved should have had her medical license taken away from her, but she wanted that fame and glory and was in cahoots with an author who also wanted the same thing.
Except for Debbie Nathan's book (which is criticized for twisting the facts), there's no evidence that the story is totally fabricated. Schreiber's famous book SYBIL is not a scientific case document but a fictionalized version to tell the story as well as protect the 'real Sybil'. Nathan just tells her version of the story, and I dread the day that one journalist is considered to tell "the truth and nothing but the truth". Just like the TV movies made their own interpretations.
"I don't discriminate between entertainment
and arthouse. A film is a goddam film."
I just recently read the book for our Biopsych class. Hattie not only abused Sybil, but other children as well. She would babysit them, and during that time, she would sexually abuse them, and Sybil saw all of this happen. Hattie would touch the genitals of the girls she would babysit while playing "horsey" and there was a time when Sybil saw her in bed, nude, with a baby boy between her legs. Her history is included in the book, as well as possible psychological and genetic illnesses that could have been passed on to her and to Sybil. I would recommend reading the book FIRST before watching the movies.
I want to be like water. I want to slip through fingers but hold up a ship.
You also need to remind people that Dr. Wilbur was a Freudian Psychiatrist, and Freud believed everything revolved around sex. So, some of the things in Dr. Wilbur's notes and some of the recording are her interpretations of the things Shirley revealed during hypnosis. Doesn't mean they happened, although I believed doctors did a physical examines on Shirley and did determined that she had been molested, rather violently. Both Shirley and Mattie were diagnosed as schizophrenic as well as other mental illnesses. I believe they said that Shirley had OCPD and was much later in life thought to have been bipolar. But, these were illnesses at the time in their lives to have never been given a name. Everything was lumped into a diagnosis of schizophrenia.
shareI remember a section that described Sybil's father coming into her bedroom in his robe, but with his privates exposed.
I don't think Hattie's abuse was for her own sexual gratification, but then again she was said to molest children in the neighborhood as well. I do think Hattie's abuse was anger-oriented not sexual.
In the book, its speculated that not only did Hattie's mental illness contribute to her atrocious acts upon Sybil....but her suppressed rage was a huge factor. Hattie had harbored rage for many years, beginning with her father who yanked her out of school for no reason to work in the family music store.
Her dream was torn apart, and her illness appeared to get worse around this time.
Then, even though she was said to enjoy caring for other's babies she was uncertain whether she wanted one of her own. But that is what women were 'expected' to do, and Willard most likely wanted a child so Hattie had one (after several miscarriages).
She, combined with her illness, took her rage out on Sybil.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush."
[deleted]
In addition to Hattie's own individual frustrations and mental-makeup that shaped her behavior, the book describes mental illness and suicides as featuring in both Hattie and Willard's family trees. Especially on Hattie's, as I seem to recall.
shareHattie's torture of Sybil has echoes of abortion and birth control methods of the time-period. Hattie's many miscarriages before Sybil was born may be because a butcher-type abortion had been performed on her. It's possible Hattie's father was so afraid Hattie would get pregnant that he performed enemas/douches on Hattie and later perfrormed a D&C with a kitchen knife or buttonhook. In those days a young girl "being whisked out of advanced education" was often the result of a "unwed mother" scenario. And often parental abuse is "inherited", the abuser re-enacting their own abuse on their children.
I think Hattie may have been molested by her father who performed enema's and douches on her afterwards and , because they were ineffective as birth control, performed a D&C on her when he got her pregnant.
!!!Scrooge for President!!!
BLAGGH!!
I was thinking, in the book does it address why Hattie eventually STOPPED? And WHEN?
Dear lord, utter nighmare horror : o
It never stops if just the thought of a person or the whiff of disinfectant causes a person to disassociate. That's why it's the "cycle" of abuse.
I can't find much information on Hattie, but I believe that she went back to the "rest" home where she eventually died.
This quote about her is from Wikipedia: Shirley "Sybil" Mason was born and raised in Dodge Center, Minnesota, the only child of Walter Mason (a carpenter and architect) and Martha Alice "Mattie" Hageman. In regard to Mason's mother: "...many people in Dodge Center say Mattie" — "Hattie" in the book — "was bizarre," according to Bettie Borst Christensen, who grew up across the street. "She had a witch-like laugh....She didn't laugh much, but when she did, it was like a screech." Christensen remembers Mason's mother walking around after dark, looking in the neighbors' windows. At one point, Mason's mother was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
The IMDB Topic: "I wonder what 'Hattie' would have thought of the book and movie?" offers differing opinions on what happened to Hattie.
!!!Scrooge for President!!!
This makes a lot of sense to me.
If talented creative people are abused it's bound to cause severe depression directly proportional to the kind of abuse and how that personality is able to express it. It's only a question of how that will manifest it self later on.
Geez, that never ending cycle HAS to be broken and maybe Shirley managed that in her own way by sadly never having children of her own.
Sadly, Sybil (Shirley) was told she'd likely never bear a child because of the internal scarring from Hattie's abuse. I wonder if she ever tried though.
It seemed that she wanted children on one level, and didn't on another. Very understandable there, given her past.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush."
Just about anything that can be said other than the documentation in the book is pure speculation. Hattie definitely had an abivalence about having children, we know she miscarried (IIRC) at least 3 times, and she was severely confined (ie, bedrest and close observation) during her pregnancy with Sybil, so it doesn't seem likely that Wilbur had anything to do with attempting or actually aborting her. She was 14 when her sister left home and she was TOLD that she was going to work in her parent's music store (demolishing her dreams of being a concert pianist) and in those days you didn't argue with your parents. Following this job placement, she did become severely depressed and as far as I can tell, this is when her problems started... but that's speculation also.
I imagine 99% of this generation of kids would think they were abused if they were raised by 1900 parents.. and they may be right. It was a different world, and a man's home was definitely his castle, and he was lord of the keep.
Agreed, anything else is conjecture.
Following this job placement, she did become severely depressed and as far as I can tell, this is when her problems started... but that's speculation also.
[deleted]
Hattie dreamed of being a concert pianist. But when her sister got married, her father yanked her out of school and forced her to work in the family music store.
"I'd say this cloud is Cumulo Nimbus."
"Didn't he discover America?"
"Penfold, shush."
OP: the mother was schizophrenic. This was explained explicitly in the movie. Are you really that dense?
shareOP: the mother was schizophrenic. This was explained explicitly in the movie. Are you really that dense?