MovieChat Forums > The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976) Discussion > The Ending: Does Josey Survive?

The Ending: Does Josey Survive?


I've always been intrigued by the ending as Josey rides away (to stirring theme music). What's your opinion? Does Josey die of his wounds or does he live?

reply

See the thread titled "Didn't quite get the ending.." on page two (56 replies)- a long thread on this very topic. I think most would say the ending was meant to be ambiguous by Eastwood.

reply

[deleted]

I guess there was debate on whether they should film Eastwood coming back to the home......but Eastwood said no because the viewer can will Josey back to the home in their own mind. That's where they want Josey to go.

But I wouldn't argue if someone thinks Josey dies. Eastwood left it on such an ambiguous note that whatever story you create in your mind - if that's what you think and it's good enough for you - then that's what it is to you.

reply

[deleted]

There's a 'sequel' film called The Return of Josey Wales, made in '86? I was just on that board as well...

It's not a very good film, both in production and story. No Clint Eastwood. Poor vision and sound.

That film was based on the book, The Vengeance Trail of Josey Wales by Forrest Carter.

I think Josey Wales survived.


He who lives by the sword will be shot by those who can't

reply

I always assumed he rode back to the Santa Rosa Ranch.

reply

Yes, there is a sequal. I think Eastwood left it to us to determine whether he lived or died. After seeing the sequal, however, I wish at the end of the first one they would have shown him falling off his horse, getting his head cut off by Indians, and lit on fire. Then that piece of crap sequal would have never been made.

reply

Regard that sequel as glorified fanfiction. Much like I do TERMINATOR 3. And, much how Trekkies regard STV: THE FINAL FRONTIER.

reply

In those days, if someone was gutshot the prognosis was almost ALWAYS death. Josey appeared to be shot in a lateral area, which might have been a bit less serious. If the folks at the ranch had ANY medical savvy, they would have done what they could, if he had returned there. That, plus Josey's iron will might have seen him through IF he wanted to go on living.
Perhaps he was tired of it all, and went off to the guerilla's graveyard. (3007 miles West of the elephant's graveyard.)
As far as I'M concerned, Josey still lives to this day.

reply

[deleted]

I think he said "**** it!" and went to live with the Indians.

reply

Fletcher: "I think he's still alive."

Ten Spot: "Alive...no sir."

Wales lives. His character follows a circular structure in which he starts out as a peaceful farmer and devoted family man, transforms into a vengeance-driven killer and, after rediscovering his humanity, returns to Laura Lee and the ranch to resume his patriarchal lifestyle. That Wales survives is, likewise, supported by the events in the novel "Gone to Texas" and also in interviews with Eastwood.

reply

The author,Forrest Carter, left no doubt- Josey survived. A second novel, set mostly in Mexico, was published after the success of the film. Josey lived to fight another day.

reply

Officially at least, Josey Wales died when he was shot by a group of Pistoleros in Mexico. That was the official story at the end of the movie.

However, Josey lived on under the alias of "Mr. Wilson".

reply

It's ambiguous, and it's up to the viewer (even though Clint has stated what he believes as the director), and anyone who has read the novel knows what happens in it.

Much gets made of Wales's wound and whether or not it was fatal. I've watched this film countless times and never really wondered if he was going to die.

To me, the wound and the blood at the end signify a couple things. For one thing, that he's human. He gets hurt at the beginning and hurt at the end - in between, he's a near-invincible warrior. We are reminded that, even after all the killing he's been through, he never lost his humanity. Secondly, I think the wound is simply symbolic - a symbol of all the pain and suffering and loss in his life. Like he said, "we all died a little in that damn war." The wounds, the pain, will always be with him ... even though, at long last, "the war is over." Think of an analogy to the nation itself, if you like. The Civil War inflicted deep wounds on the United States - the nation emerged and forged on, but the scars are still there and will always be there.

reply

Yes, well articulated Traianus.

reply

This left me wondering if Mr. Wilson became Mr. Munny




A black pool opened up at my feet. I dived in. It had no bottom.

reply


Stoopid question, everyone dies :D No seriously, I dont think he does, there isnt enuf blood to indicate a very serious shotwond, just a few drops.


__________________________________________
Any last words ?
Shut the *beep* up

reply

John Vernon - who play Fletcher - is fantastic. Fletcher looks at the blood dripping on Josey's boots and you can see the sympathy on his face. No dialogue required.

And I think that's the point - to show sympathy for Josey and what he's had to go through. Fletcher wants to end the bloodshed if Josey's willing.

reply

And to add to the discussion, I've also seen the ending as a metaphorical death of sorts for Josey.

Josey Wales is recognized as being dead by the government. There's the quote about everyone dying a little bit in that damn war. Josey does what he has to by avenging his family's death. One chapter of his life is closed, and a new one begins.

reply

Whether he literally dies or not seems unknowable given what we see, and I've never been a fan of digging for evidence for this sort of thing in sources outside the movie. What I want to know is what happened in the story we see on the screen, and not what interpretation you can give it by appealing to things not on the screen--even if it's information from, or about, the film's sequel(s), director's and/or screenwriter's views and intentions, the underlying text on which the screenplay was based, etc.

I've also seen the ending as a metaphorical death of sorts for Josey
This seems right to me. Not only has the drive for vengeance that spurred his life been satisfied (or, maybe more accurately, overcome), but it's not clear what more he has to contribute to the world around him, including the little alternative society he's created at the ranch. He's a man of violence throughout the film: a desire to use his proficiency with violence to achieve vengeance drives his personal story, and his ability to use violence in defense of those around him allows him to gather a sort of alternative society around himself.

But now it's not clear that his gunfighting is of any use to anyone, including himself. He's resolved his personal story (without violence, in the very end), and he's taught the people he gathered around him to defend themselves. Moreover, he's seemingly removed the most salient sources of danger to the people on the ranch, by making a deal with the local Native Americans and by resolving his own issues with the Union. So, of what use is he to anyone anymore? And could he live a life of another sort? This, it seems, is the end of Josey Wales, the man of violence. Could there be a different Josey Wales?

reply

I like to think by the end that we could have seen the turning point of Wales back to the family man and farmer we saw at the beginning. He seemed that he may have very well lived a life of another sort previously.

reply

I think there are plenty of clues in the movie.

there's a fair bit of symbolism in the movie's final stages. Fletcher has offered him a fresh start, and effectively tells him he has no enemies left, unless he wants to fight. Josey's guns are empty, and that too could be symbolic of the change in him. He's tired of fighting - remember his talk with Ten Bears "Dyin' ain't hard for men like you and me, it's livin' that's hard" (something like that)? He wants peace, a return to his old lifestyle - and even though he has been scarred by the battles he has fought, he knows that now he can.

The final battle takes place just after sunup. So when Josey rides towards the sun at the end he's riding towards a new future - not towards the setting sun, symbolic of an ending...

But I believe that Eastwood decided to leave it open at the end and make the audience decide...so ya gonna pull those pistols or start whistlin' Dixie?

reply

That's the thing- we see at the beginning he was a farmer with a family and after the loss of his family he's shown practicing marksmanship with his pistol- so he doesn't seem to have been much of a shot previously. It's also telling how he's overcome by the Redlegs, slashed and unable to protect his wife and son. Certainly not the almost mythical superhero he later becomes.

reply

I'd say he lived. He accomplished what he wanted to accomplished, made a family for himself, was redeemed by the peace with the John Vernon's character. I'd say he lived forever!

reply

That's the thing- we see at the beginning he was a farmer with a family and after the loss of his family he's shown practicing marksmanship with his pistol- so he doesn't seem to have been much of a shot previously.


I took it as he was cleaning the rust off a formerly used set of skills from a former life he'd lived before he settled down to a simple life with wife and child, building a home in the frontier and breaking the land for a farm.

All through the film Josey displays a lot of skills that wouldn't have been all newly learned and practiced in the few days following the fire.
After all, are we to believe that after the redlegs burned his home and killed his family, Josey also practiced flipping two pistols around from butt ahead to shooting grip? No, these are old skills.

After the redlegs committed their atrocity we even see Josey dig up the gun and leather holster from where he'd buried them at some time in the past! How much more symbolism do we need to see that an old retired gunslinger turned farmer and family man, has been driven by tragic circumstance and the compulsion for vengence to return to being the man of violence he had been before.

reply

Yes good points all, I stand corrected.

reply

The gun was not buried. It was in the burnt out remains of his home. Check and you can see that the remains are still smouldering in places. And he did not learn - or accepting your point for a second, relearn - anything in a few days...The opening titles show a montage of the American Civil War, which took several years, not including any involvement in border raids in the lead-up to the war. Let's say he built up the skills in battle over a period of 5 years. A driven man can learn a lot in that time. Basic training in most armies is around 2 months, but real combat can teach you a lot more. If you survive it.

We're not watching Unforgiven here: this is a man who had a gun as a tool that he never expected or intended to use, and had to learn to use effectively following the loss of his family. You don't get revenge by getting killed.

The symbolism we saw was of a happy family man who had never experienced the brutality of war, dumped into a war not of his own choosing. But coming out fighting. Think "idyllic bucolic scene" opening with the sudden brutal attack on his family, and the effect on him.

If you want to complain about the opening of the film, ask yourself where he got the black powder from to fire his gun...the burnt wreckage of his home?

reply

Great post

reply

I say he lived on to become the grandpa in Forrest Carter's other book, The Education of Little Tree.

Wasn't his name Josey in the book? Or was that Little Tree's real name in the book?

But maybe the timeline wouldn't support such a thing anyway.






"Go back to your oar, Forty-One."

reply

Since there is a sequel both to the book and as a film (a lousy film sequel, but there...), It's a pretty safe bet that Josey survives.

"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's LIVING!"
Captain Augustus McCrae

reply

Well, they did make a lousy sequel 10 yrs later so I guess he did live.





"So, a thought crossed your mind? Must have been a long and lonely journey"

reply