MovieChat Forums > Ode to Billy Joe (1976) Discussion > Ambiguity in Billy Joe ode by Bobbie Gen...

Ambiguity in Billy Joe ode by Bobbie Gentry


Bettie Magee If the Billy Joe saga was about sexual confusion, and the fact that he couldn't have it with his gal because of Daddy's prohibition for her to go out with him, then, what were the two of them throwing off the Tallahachie Bridge the Saturday before Billy Joe jumped in and killed himself? I don't think homosexuality had a thing to do with it, and the movie was looking for straws. I will always believe they had a baby, it died, they panicked, and threw the poor dead thing off the bridge. Guilt was the motive for Billy Joe's suicide.. Guilt and pain are the motives for the gal throwing flowers off the brdige. All that seems logical for the 1960's when Bobbie Gentry wrote the song.

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i thought billy had sex with the preacher during the carnival or whatever that was. didn't she have to leave town for a while? was that because she was pregnant? who's baby was it? the preacher's? billy's? it's been a long time since i saw the movie and i'm not sure if the movie made any of this clear at all. as a young gay teenager watching it on t.v., i guess i wanted it to be about homosexuality. there really was none of it on t.v. in those days and i guess i was looking for something, anything that i could relate to.

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i could very well be wrong, but i thought they threw off a gun cause he told her he was gonna kill himself.

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She wasnt really pregnent but the town thought she was so she left and let them think she was pregnent with Billy Joe's baby because she couldnt tell anyone that Billy Joe had sez with the preacher and if she didnt leave they would see she wasnt pregnent and she would ahve to tell them the truth but she thought it was better if she just left and let them think what they thought.

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I remember watching this movie because I was intrigued by the song and because Robbie Benson was so cute.

Imagine how horrible it was as a young gay man to see someone kill themselves because they might be/were gay. This movie is dreadful in that it makes homosexuality something awful.

In fact, Billy wasn't necessarily gay - he just had some kind of homosexual contact with another man. Many many men have had that kind of experience growing up - it doesn't make you gay and it doesn't mean you kill yourself.

After finally reading the words to the song, I realized that this movie is so far from revealing anything that it defies logic.

Although I admit, when I first read the lyrics I read them as a man, which was weird when they got to the part about seeing a 'girl who looked like you'.

I didn't make the leap about it being a baby being thrown over - but that makes sense. And it makes a hell of a lot more sense when you look at the era of the song.

The image of Robbie Benson recoiling in horror and then committing suicide has stuck with me for a long time. The song - which I never knew anything more than the final words - has played in my head every so often. That's what made me do a search on the Internet for the lyrics, and what lead me to this site.

I am glad to know that I am not the only one who thinks this movie was WAY off.

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There is a lot of confusion about both this song and this movie...maybe I'll clear it up...maybe I'll muddy the waters.

The point of the movie is that Billy commits "a sin against nature" and can't bear the guilt. Homosexual or not, he jumped because he was guilty. And in Mississippi back then, he could have been killed anyway if anyone found out about him.

The girl leaves town at the end to protect his memory. Its better that people think he got a girl pregnant than to find out the truth, so she leaves. The rumors will fly, and Billy will be a folk legend rather than a homosexual in the memory of the small town.

As for the song, its a vague. The girl and Billy clearly threw something off and Billy died because of what they did. What they did is just never said, and from what I understand, Benson gave the rights to the movie on one condition, what was thrown could not be revealed.

Speculation about the song is similar to what people in the movie town might be pondering...maybe that's what the filmakers were going for...they just didn't do a good job.

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Although, I believe Lagardo has cleared this up, but what about Benjamin the Rag Doll. When they were on the bridge together, they were fighting over the rag doll and it was lost (thrown) from the bridge and witnessed by someone fishing. I always symbolized this as "the loss of innocence". Although, the "homosexual" encounter seemed plausable then. It sure sounds kind of hokey now. We have certainly evolved! Billy Joe was not only the first "teen homo" on the silver screen but could have very well been the first Drama Queen as well ... Get over it, Billy!

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yes. brother taylor, the minister was fishing and saw them throwing sometihng off the bridge. what was thrown was the ragdoll. and it was mr barksdale that billy joe slept with, not the preacher.

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And Mr Barksdale was Billy's boss at the lumber mill

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I am, from australia and the song ode to billy joe certaily has us all trying to work out what they were throwing off the bridge? does anyone know?? i always thought it was a baby, but i have read so many silly assumptions that i am now more confused, i only heard the song for the first time last month and found it intriguing.

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You must remember that this movie was made thirty years ago and the story takes place twenty years before that. In the 1950's, especially deep in the South, teenage boys did commit suicide because they were gay. This is a fact and, unfortunately, it still happens today. To refer to this as being a "drama queen" is an insult to anyone who has gone through it. Yes, we have evolved tremendously and society is much more accepting of alternative lifestyles. However, we still have a long way to go.

On another note: Bobbie Gentry was a phenomenal performer. If any of you are old enough to remember her from the 1960s and 70s, she made frequent TV and concert appearances. She had other songs to equal "Billy Joe" such as "Fancy." When she disappeared from the entertainment scene, it was every bit as mysterious as to what was thrown off the Tallachie Bridge!

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All this speculation indicates the genius of Bobbie Gentry's song - it's mystery and enigmatic quality. The answer to "What did they throw off the bridge?" is: there IS no answer! Each person fills in the blanks for his or herself, and various scenarios can be concocted. The movie didn't have the luxury of being ambiguous, so it had to go with one defined premise.

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It was the Teddy bear they threw off the bridge not a baby.

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Billy Joe accidentally knocks Benjimin the rag doll out of her arms off the Tallahachie Bridge.

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When I first heard the song, I thought she pushed Billy Joe off the bridge. I have heard the song about 5,000 by now and I know otherwise. Whatever the reason he jumped, it's now the stuff of legend. Apparently, the original cut of the tune spanned more than 7 minutes and I think the record company actually pushed for her to cut out to something more manageable like 4 minutes, 17 seconds. Even though the FM radio station were blasting the likes of Bob Dylan and the unaltered cut of Light My Fire by The Doors, "Ode To Billie Joe" never really struck the record-heads as a song that deserved such a lengthy treatment. The outcome we have is now more ambiguous than an algebra problem typed in Bavarian German. Opinions have been exchanged for four decades and there's still no definitive answer what was tossed off the bridge at first but we do know it was the body of Billy Joe by will alone that was tossed as the second item. By and by, it makes for a great story and it shall always be that way.

If you can read this, then you have 20/20 vision.

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In the song it's their aborted baby they throw off the bridge.
In the movie they drop Benjamin the rag doll by accident.
The song and the movie dont have a whole lot to do with eachother.
Billy Joe wasnt gay in the song.
I dont know why the movie chose to go in that direction.

LOUD & PROUD HAL LOVER
LIVING IN THE PAST
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6spdi/index.html

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In response to everyone's speculation that it was a baby they threw off the bridge - I can't imagine that in a small backwoods town like that a girl (even in the song lyrics I got the impression she was under pretty close scrutiny from her parents) would be pregnant and then abort/have a baby and THEN throw it off the bridge without anyone noticing. Obviously everyone in town knew who she was (the preacher told her mother he saw her at the bridge). It's doubtful she could hide a pregnancy, even if she wasn't showing, because pregnancy comes with many obvious symptoms, which the mother would undoubtably recognize in her own daughter.

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Not necessarily. More than one teenager has managed to hide a pregnancy all the way through. I kind of like the explanation that the song has one story and the movie has another. There's no reason why they can't.

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"Not necessarily. More than one teenager has managed to hide a pregnancy all the way through. I kind of like the explanation that the song has one story and the movie has another. There's no reason why they can"

Not in 1950's Mississippi. Parents back then were involved with their children, and mothers certainly knew when their daughters "had a bun in the oven".
In this day and age the parental credo seems to be "go watch tv and leave me the hell alone." It's no wonder that teen problems completely broadside clueless parents, who are devastated and squeek "I had no idea" when their kid winds up in jail, or worse, on a morgue slab.


Refusal to believe does not negate the truth.

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Gentry herself has said the point of the song is not really "what happened?" but the lack of communication within the family--that although the parents and the brother calmly talk about their friend's suicide and say such things as "he never had a lick of sense--pass the biscuits" they have no clue how their words are affecting the daughter.

So, there was no rosy "back then, families were different." Some families know what's going on with their daughters; some don't. Fifties, '70s, today--families are the same as they always were.

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Allright, there were three things here, two of which have become intertwined.
1) The Song
2) The Movie
3) and the undiscussed novel based on the song that inspired the movie

In the song no one is stated or implied as being gay. Basically all thats known is the reverend saw two people on the bridge, one of whom he thought was the girl singing the song(not named in the song but we'll call her Bobbie like in the song).

The novel is basically like the movie except Bobbie is insane and talks to Benjamin, even when the doll isn't there. Really nutty. A better character though more over the top.

Movie: Billy Joe didn't sleep with the reverend. He slept with the sawmill owner. In the book it was oral sex.

Now that we have it all lined up here is some more info...

Bobbie Gentry wanted the song to be ambiguous. WHat we hear is a shortened version of the original which wasn't widley circulated. It told more but Gentry didn't like it. So it was shortened, made more vague.

The "message" of the song? Bobbie Gentry said it was about indifference. In the song its just casual dinner discussion about Billie Joe, to the point it was dismissed because Billy Joe or Choctaw Ridge people in general were no good.

To this day it drives me nuts as to what was thrown over.

Gentry did say, I believe, it wasn't a baby. People would have probably noticed her gettign pregnant.

YOu know the lyrics don't say what size of thing was being dumped. COuld have been big or small.

BradLaGrange

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Although I do think Billy Joe was gay, I still get confused about his feelings for her..as far as the film goes. I mean it was clear he was not into other women..or maybe it was it just wasn't into hookers, I don't know.lol
But he also told Bobbi that he knew what was going on when he was with his boss, and yet she got him all hot and bothered all through the film and told her he loved her.

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[deleted]

The lyrics are:

And Brother said he recollected when he and Tom and Billie Joe
Put a frog down my back at the Carroll County picture show
And wasn't I talkin' to HIM after church last Sunday night?
"I'll have another piece of apple pie, you know it don't seem right"
"I saw HIM at the sawmill yesterday on Choctaw Ridge"
"And now you tell me Billie Joe's jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge"

Twice the song refers to Billie Joe as 'him'. If you want to say this is open to interpretation, then you might as well take it that the singer was a male, Billie Joe was female and when there were references to 'Brother' (such as here) then clearly it was referring to Brother Taylor.

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[deleted]

No, you're wanting to re-arrange the song.

Brother Taylor may have seen two people on the bridge, but the song makes no mention of the distance, nor that it was at night, as the movie shows. That set up was in the film. As far as the film goes, the person on the bridge with sister was a guy, because he is an actor named Robbie Benson.

Follw the song carefully. It seems that Brother is the one who is talking (not that that matters, even if it had been mother or father who were speaking). "Weren't you seen talkin' to him after church?" Brother doesn't say he was the one who saw her with Billie Joe, nor that he did the mistaking. We are given no distance for whoever it was that saw the girl with Billie Joe after church.

"Hey, Bubba, I saw your sister talking to a guy, but it could have been Billie Joe." -- And Billie Joe is a girl?

Even if Brother had been told that it may or may not have been Billie Joe his sister was talking to after church, when Brother recalled this to sister after they heard about Billie Joe's suicide, he would have said "Weren't you seen talkin' to HER after church?"

Brother then says he saw Billie Joe at the sawmill. "I saw HIM." If he knew for certain that it was Billie Joe, and as you want to hear it, Billie Joe was a girl, then he would have said 'her' no matter how masculine she may have been.

Had Brother seen the girl Billie Joe even at a distance, he would have said "You know it don't seem right, I saw HER at the sawmill yesterday on Choctaw Ridge." You don't mistake someone's gender in retrospect.

That's three instances in which Billie Joe is seen, way too much for 'her' to constantly be mistaken for a guy, and no one bothering to make sure. But again, after church and at the sawmill, Brother would have said 'her' if Billie Joe was a girl.

These people knew who they were seeing. They didn't think the girl was with a strange guy.

And Brother said he recollected when he and Tom and Billie Joe
Put a frog down my back at the Carroll County picture show
And wasn't I talkin' to HIM after church last Sunday night?
"I'll have another piece of apple pie, you know it don't seem right"
"I saw HIM at the sawmill yesterday on Choctaw Ridge"
"And now you tell me Billie Joe's jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge"

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It could be a girl if the brother talked to Tom after church.

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I thought that Billy Joe was raped by the sawmill owner, and on some level he liked it, and that confused him greatly. Not only was he traumatically molested, he liked it. And then he couldn't get it on with his girl. Either because he was gay or because the trauma had shocked him soft. I don't know much about what they threw off the bridge, but I think that it was probably from this confusion that Billy jumped from the bridge.

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Frozen-Rose: " don't know much about what they threw off the bridge"
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The movie is just a theory, and a small one at that, that Billy Joe jumped because he was gay and that what was thrown off the bridge was a doll.

To me, the most obvious conclusion from the song is Billy Joe was pressuring the girl (again I'll call her Bobbie Jo) for sex or a commitment and she wouldnt do it.

What was thrown off the bridge was probably a ring, Did he want them to go steady (placing it in Mississippi in the late fifties, early sixties).

The most outlandish for me was it was a baby she had out of wedlock.

Well, of course that couldn't be it. They would have found it in the river.

the movie had them fighting over the doll. I always concluded that they were in agreement for what they were getting rid of.

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The only thing I can say for sure is that Billy Joe was a MALE. I couldn't tell you what they threw off the bridge or why (other than what the movies suggests). I am in agreement that it couldn't have been a baby. And I am satisfied with the movie version of why Billy Joe killed himself. I LOVE the southern accents in the movie and I LOVE the way Mississippi looks. By the way, whenever "brother" is mentioned in the song, it's in reference to Bobbie Lee's brother, except the part where "Brother Taylor" is coming over for dinner on Sunday and HE saw a girl that looked a lot like Bobbie Lee on Choctaw Ridge.

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Okay I've read all the posts and I can no longer refrain from giving my ideas on the Song, the movie and the mystery of object thrown from the bridge.And my morbid obsession with everything having to do with this tale.
The Song
Just from the conversations and mentioned activity in the lyrics
We know that these are hard working ,church going folks.
The father is a farmer trying to keep his farm going and all he knows of Billie Joe is that he was an idiot.So he could care less about his tragic death.To Papa it was inevitable.

Mama is busy with cooking and cleaning and the dream of a possiblity of that nice young preacher Brother Taylor having dinner with them and perhaps taking a shine to their daughter and then they could marry her off to him.

Brother (meaning the female singers brother ,not the preacher)can only recall old memories of Billie and some friends horsing around obviously awhile back..because his asking and not being sure if he saw him or not means he hadn't seen him for awhile and then has trouble with the idea of seeing him alive recently and then finding out that now he's dead.As would anyone..but then gets back to the business of chowing down his meal.

And finally attention is turned to sister who has remained silent through the whole meal and has noticablly lost her appetite..as mama who's feeling unappreciated for her hard work states.As she is eagerly telling her daughter
about the preacher hoping to bring a smile to her face, she suddenly remembers he had said he had seen her daughter or someone that looked like her and another person on the bridge and that they were throwing something off of the bridge.Not making a big deal about it just mentioning it. Daughter isn't responding ,she's obviously upset after hearing that Billie Joe has jumped off the bridge.Clearly she's the only one that takes the news hard. So you know she had some kind of relationship with him.

This relationship would have had to be a secret one...due to the way her family views Billie Joe and plus being from the wrong side of the tracks,they would have never approved. She would have easily snuck off to meet him seeing how her parents would have gone to bed early as hard working as they were. Farm clothes back then , the ones a girl would be wearing choppin' cotton were baggy and layered,so a pregnancy would be easy to conceal. And back in the day especially in the south sex education was pretty much non-existant so it's feesble that a young girl wouldn't know she was pregnant until it was too late.As for parents they weren't as involved in their children's lives as they are now days. A church going southern woman wouldn't even entertain the thought that her daughter would be having sex before marriage.These were simplier times remember.So it's an unwanted baby delivered to 2 scared and confused kids, who think they're only option is to throw it in the river off the bridge in an area where no one goes because nothing never ever comes to no good up there on chalktaw Ridge.To Billie Joe that baby was probably the only happiness he had experienced in his life and having to destroy it and how they disposed of it was something he just couldn't live with. The girl chooses to believe it never happened.She has to believe that so she can go on with her life,because just think what it would do to the family if they knew.The preacher just happens to be passing by and the movement of something being thrown is what catches his eye.but he isn't stopped or fishing watching this transpire..or else he would have been able to focus in on who it was up there.

So in the end we learn that life just went on...Papa has died, mama's only purpose was to take care of her family with papa gone and a depressed daughter she has nothing to keep her occupied so she becomes completely shut off from the world. Brother gets married and starts a career as a store owner , so that leaves no one to tend to the farm...so you know things are pretty bleak around there so the girl's way of dealing with all this in her shaky at best mental state is to pick flowers and give them to the one true love she had. Probably wishing she could join him if she didn't have mama to take care of.

As for the movie...Billie Joe is a hormonal, horny mess. He does everything in his power to do this courtin' thing correctly once he sets his sights on Bobbie Lee who has showed some interest in him as a suitor. we are shown that her sexual feelings have also been awaken,by way of a torrid dimestore novel that obviously has been read over and over again from it's appearence and a ragdoll boyfriend, Benjermin that makes all her romantic fantasy come true.But abandons him in a cedarchest once she becomes attracted to the persistant Bobbie Joe. She's stuck somewhere between being a woman and a child. Not sure how she should handle her out of control desire..she keeps igniting the flame going farther and farther with her sexual expermentation with the increasingly frustrated Billie Joe in a series of secret rendevous's.After all she has dog to keep her virtue intact if she calls him in time to rescue her.Even accidently falling into the lake doesn't cool these youngin's down.But just when she decides to give in to their passion, the unthinkable happens.
This is where we are force fed the out of nowhere unbelieveable twist to this already stupid plot..See the writers know that the majority of people think that it's a baby that is thrown off the bridge...so it can't be a baby. It would be expected. They needed something really shocking to reveal so people would tell they're friends they should see the movie.At the time this movie was made,the gay community were taking strides to come out of the closet and making their presence known...controversy just what this dog of a movie needed.
So Billie Joe just can't wait for Bobbie Lee anymore,especially once a sexual outlet presents itself to him. He has sex with his boss after getting drunk with him at the big jamboree.Does want to waste his money on the hookers so why not with a man. Then has lovers remorse in the morning and runs way into the forest. Without explanation on how Bobbie Lee knows where to find him, she comes to him with her mind made up to give herself to him.To prove she means business she has brought her ragdoll boyfriend ,intended to be nothing more than a visual aide,symbolically showing she's ready for the real thing by throwing the imginary one away...but then changes her mind which enrages Billie Joe who's had it with her stalling, they wrestle with the doll, an impromtu tug o war that results in the tossing Benjirman off the bridge.so they finally are trying to do it..but he can't and tells her that he had sex with a man and liked it but can't bare to live his life this way blah blah garbage garbage yada yada...who cares by now.
His body is found the next day as is Benjimens, but is dismissed as just weird that a kids toy would be found there too..News spreads fast, the townfolk already have they're minds made up that she's pregnant and that's why he did it
Bobbie Joe weighs the reality and the rumor reason and decides to save his reputation instead of her own because it would be more acceptible to people. She talks the sawmill boss lover out of confessing to the liason(which ..why would he in the first place)to Billie Joe's family...then as the music swells we see the movie get all neatly wrapped up with the flash of still pictures showing the happy ending for everyone involved. BIG DEAL !!

I know I've given you the impression that I hate this movie...but just like they're sick twist here's mine....I love it..It makes me laugh, I love their stupid accents and I had the biggest crush on Robbie Benson.So of course I watch it every oppertunity I get.I just don't like the fact that it's forever associated with the Hauntingly beautiful and thought provoking "ODE TO BILLIE JOE"


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>I love their stupid accents

Seriously, I don't think the accent is stupid. I'm from MS, and I sure hate hearing someone say my accent is stupid. No bother, it's gotten me a lot over the years, so I guess there are a lot of people who don't think it's stupid.

I think people are putting too much modern thought to a 30 year old movie that took place 50 years ago. I don't believe Billie Joe was gay. I believe he was pathetically drunk and couldn't deal with what happened the next day because back then homosexual behavior was thought to be VERY wrong. Still not widely accepted in the deep South.

Tracy

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Except that the accents portrayed in that movie sound nothing like any southern accent I've ever heard. Not all the accents were bad, but the way they talked was just ridiculous.

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Except that the accents portrayed in that movie sound nothing like any southern accent I've ever heard. Not all the accents were bad, but the way they talked was just ridiculous.


So what you are saying here is that you have heard EVERY southern accent known to man?

I KNOW people from Mississippi and Alabama, and their accents are similar to those in the movie.

There's nothing "ridiculous" about the accents at all.

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Well, I'm glad you KNOW people from Mississippi and Alabama, but I'm FROM Alabama, and yes I can tell you that people do not talk like that. It's completely exaggerated. The exact idea of what Hollywood thinks the South sounds like.

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By tomservo787:

Well, I'm glad you KNOW people from Mississippi and Alabama, but I'm FROM Alabama, and yes I can tell you that people do not talk like that. It's completely exaggerated. The exact idea of what Hollywood thinks the South sounds like.



And it's taken you almost THREE YEARS to come up with this response? I know things are a little more laid back and slower in the south, but this is ridiculous. LMFAO!!



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Good one.

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Glad you could see the humor intended in that one. Have a great week

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lmistyfall has it right.
I was about 12 years old when the song came out and about 18 when the movie came out and remember both very well. I read the book too.

The only thing I view differently is the sexual episode with Mr Barksdale. Mr Barksdale was a closeted gay - He couldn't be open - homosexuality was ILLEGAL. His only outlet was to cruise men in secrecy in seedy places (Like the area where the hookers were). I think he had been attracted to Billy Joe for some time (since Billy Joe worked for him). Billy Joe was both curious and repulsed by the hookers, very confused about sex, love, and relationships. I don't think he was gay (he is clearly intensely attracted to Bobbie Lee) I think Mr Barksdale took advantage of Billy Joe's state of confusion and engaged him in a non-consensual sex act (If I remember right, wasn't Biily Joe drinking/drunk?) Billie Joe had no parameters to understand any of this (sex education was non-existent in this repressive community and certainly no on talked about homosexuality), and feared that the episode meant that HE was gay - in this culture a fate many felt was(literally) worse than death.



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here is some good info from wikipedia. i saw this movie when i was about 7, loved it through all these years, though it has so many inconsistencies (compared to the song.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Billy_Joe

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I think that it doesn't matter what was being thrown off the bridge, the point is to show how nosey people are in the small town, and they assume something is up between those two.

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[deleted]

I think you're right - the song is about the irony of living in a town where it seems everyone knows everyone's business, but in reality no one really knows anyone, even their own family members. It the irony of extreme distance and loneliness in a context of closeness and intimacy.

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Wow, I really like some peoples responses. The films was messy and badly scripted to put it mildly.

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