So underrated 'anti-western'! - The Missouri Breaks (1976) Discussion

[–] teejay6682 19 years ago

i don't really like the term "anti-western" cause i like westerns and i like this movie. brando and nicholson are awesome in this weird film. i really appreciate it. it's a small gem.

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[–] phil-loughborough 19 years ago

a long time since i've seen it but couldn't "the life and times of judge roy bean" qualify as an anti-western

You see, in the end, our truest opinions are not the ones we have never changed...

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[–] montrossboc-1 10 years ago

I'd call this an 'anti-movie', with Brando warming up for his icebucket-headed role as Moreau.

Short Cut, Draw Blood

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[–] joekiddlouischama 10 years ago

Why exactly is this film an "anti-Western"?

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[–] montrossboc-1 10 years ago

I didn't say it was an 'anti-western' I said it was an anti-movie, with the lunatics running the asylum.

Short Cut, Draw Blood

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[–] joekiddlouischama 10 years ago

I hear you. I was referring to the original poster's comment, echoed by some others. I'm not sure why my reply ended up where it ended up.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

I join you in your high praise of this masterpiece "anti-western." It's one of my favorite films of all time.

I think the term suggests the same kinds of things people think about when they label protagonists as "anti-heroes." The line between the good guys and bad guys gets blurred in moral ambiguity. It was a key feature in many films of the 70s, not just the westerns.

For the roots of the anti-western, you would do well to look no further than Nicholson's own filmography. I refer to the movies he starred in and wrote in the late late 60s/early 70s such as _The Shooting_ and _Ride the Whirlwind_. Of course, you could argue that Sergio Leone and Sam Peckinpah were also re-inventing the western at the time.

More good examples of the sub-genre would be Arthur Penn's other westerns _The Left-Handed Gun_ (which may have started it all) and _Little Big Man__. Also, _The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean_ (as suggested by another poster on this thread), Robert Altman's _McCabe & Mrs. Miller_, and Peter Fonda's _The Hired Hand_. Fans of _Missouri Breaks_ would probably appreciate these films as well. At least I do.

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[–] teejay6682 19 years ago

i love and own a lot of films that are considered "anti-westerns" "mccabe and mrs. miller, unforgiven, once upon a time in the west, the hired hand, heaven's gate, high plains drifter, the wild bunch, the ballad of cable hogue are all in my collection. i also love monte hellman's the shooting, the missouri breaks, peckinpah's pat garrett and billy the kid etc. but i don't consider these "anti-westerns" just westerns.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

It sounds like we have similar collections -- at least in the western category. And I agree that, like any label, "anti-western" may not be a very useful term. Obviously, it is possible to love both traditional and non-traditional westerns without contradiction.

I think the term is only helpful in explaining why some fans of the western genre don't care for the kind of western that challenges the conventions of the very genre that they love. Perfectly understandable, and I think Missouri Breaks is the kind of western that tends to alienate many purists.

But what exactly is an anti-western? Robert Altman used the term himself when he described his McCabe & Mrs. Miller. He called the film an "anti-western" because the film turns a number of Western conventions on their sides, "... including male dominance and the heroic standoff; gunplay is a solution only after reputation, wit, and nonviolent coercion fail; and law and order do not always prevail." The point that often gets lost, in my opinion, is that many of these so-called anti-westerns show a deep and genuine respect for the genre that they are supposedly subverting. So, for some of us, they aren't killing the genre so much as they are breathing in new life.

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[–] teejay6682 19 years ago

i guess what i mean is that i don't think people who flat out don't like westerns would these ones we're talking about anymore then they like john wayne movies.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

That may very well be true. There are people who just don't like westerns, period. Just like there are people who don't like horror movies. Or romantic comedies, etc. Good, bad, or indifferent, it's just not their cup of tea.

To your specific point, however, I know at least one counter-example. My wife thinks traditional westerns are mostly simplistic, reactionary, and corny (we agree to disagree). But she is quite fond of McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Missouri Breaks, High Plains Drifter, and many of the others under discussion. And she loves Sergio Leone films. "So, you like westerns," I tell her.

"No," she replies. "I just like good movies."

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[–] jc-scott 19 years ago

teejay6682 - I wouldn't call 'Once Upon A Time In The West' an 'anti-western'. Leone himself set out to create 'the ultimate western' (a feat I think he achieved). 'Missouri Breaks' and 'Judge Roy Bean' are 'anit-westerns' if there ever were ones in how they defied conventions with their quirky characters and somewhat rambling storylines.

P.S. Henry Fonda as OUATITW's Frank? Best Western villain ever.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

I agree with most of what you've said. OUATITW is not only my favorite western of all time, it is also my all-time favorite movie. Your P.S. indicates, however, a choice by Leone to go against convention. Henry Fonda was known by audiences until then as the good guy (blue-eyed and ruggedly handsome), and they were stunned (if not put off) by his brilliant badness in the film. Similarly, Leone wanted to cast William Hurt opposite Robert DeNiro in Once Upon a Time in America. DeNiro felt that audiences wouldn't buy it, and he insisted that James Woods be chosen instead. Because DeNiro held all the financial clout, Leone wasn't allowed to try to make lightning strike twice with subversive casting.

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[–] rettdog 19 years ago

I don't really agree with the label "anti-western." Over the years I have used the term "revisionist Western" because the conventions of the genre are being revised, not necessarily neglected. These films (Missouri Breaks, Little Big Man, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, etc.) are a reaction to the traditional aspects of the western and the genre is being used to communicate the themes of the time in which they were made (1960's-70's.) If these films are "anti" anything, they are anti-establishment. Arthur Penn is known for his revisionist genre films: Bonnie and Clyde (gangster), Mickey One (Detective), Little Big Man (Western.) Some films and directors do this better than others and Penn is one of the best.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

Yes, I agree that "revisionist" is a better term, because "anti-western" implies that the genre is being attacked when, in fact, the best genre revisers are trying instead to expand the possibilities of storytelling within the genre. Arthur Penn is truly one of the greats in his approach to this kind of genre filmmaking -- he also gave us a brilliant revision of the private detective in Night Moves. Altman, too, has had great success in expanding the possibilities of other movie genres: M*A*S*H (war), The Long Goodbye (detective), 3 Women (thriller), and yes, Popeye (musical).

Perhaps the best example of a true "anti-western" would be Blazing Saddles?

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[–] sexylikedexy 19 years ago

mr scott,
i agree that this is one of the great "anti-westerns". You may think my opinion is somewhat undermined by the fact that i haven't seen it. However, I know someone who has seen it. He says it's good though he cannot always be trusted (the man don't like Eternal Sunshine and he can't get enough of Gigli). On a more serious note I still think Brando's best performance was in Streetcar Named Desire.
Your friend
Mr Sexy

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[–] joekiddlouischama 16 years ago

My wife thinks traditional westerns are mostly simplistic, reactionary, and corny (we agree to disagree). But she is quite fond of McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Missouri Breaks, High Plains Drifter, and many of the others under discussion. And she loves Sergio Leone films. "So, you like westerns," I tell her.

Perhaps she prefers "revisionist" or "post-revisionist" Westerns, ones with a modernistic ethos and style.

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[–] brucedgo 11 years ago

"So, you like westerns," I tell her.

"No," she replies. "I just like good movies."

A woman after my own heart.

There are "genres" of movies I usually dislike -- e.g. low-budget horror -- but there isn't any genre that I mostly like. It's got to be good (re my own opinion).

... and the rocks it pummels. - James Berardinelli

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 11 years ago

It is on the cable again and I am hynotized once more.

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[–] joekiddlouischama 16 years ago

But what exactly is an anti-western? Robert Altman used the term himself when he described his McCabe & Mrs. Miller. He called the film an "anti-western" because the film turns a number of Western conventions on their sides, "... including male dominance and the heroic standoff; gunplay is a solution only after reputation, wit, and nonviolent coercion fail; and law and order do not always prevail." The point that often gets lost, in my opinion, is that many of these so-called anti-westerns show a deep and genuine respect for the genre that they are supposedly subverting. So, for some of us, they aren't killing the genre so much as they are breathing in new life.

I agree. The term "anti-Western" stems from individuals, such as Altman and any number of elitist critics, who don't like Westerns. But many "anti-Western" filmmakers, such as Leone and Eastwood, loved the genre and were merely offering non-traditional and less glorifying perspectives on the usual arrangements of elements.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] joekiddlouischama 16 years ago

And that's why the genre died forever.

I actually think that the revisionists breathed new life into a static genre in the mid-to-late 1960s, thus granting it a second wind that lasted about a dozen years (1964-1976) in terms of theatrical release and deepened the Western's historical trajectory.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] KutWrite (1220) 7 years ago

Rrebenstorf: Yes, I think "One-Eyed Jacks" and even "Appaloosa" were in the same vein as this movie.

Maybe it's the Williams harmonica score, but somehow "The Cowboys" also fits.

I love a film with a potent, interesting, quirky villain!

(that brings to mind a non-western Brando film: "Night of the Following Day," co-starring the strong Western villain actor, Richard Boone.

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[–] cjwilkerson 19 years ago

I viewed this program over and over this past weekend and wish I had taped it. It was excellent. It was serious with a touch of humor. The bad guys were not so bad, and yet they were. Hats off to Jack Nicholson. I wish a DVD version were available.

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[–] teejay6682 19 years ago

i watched it again on amc a day or so ago. still love it. brando and nicholson are awesome in the movie. it's underrated. the chemistry between nicholson and the female lead was great. their scenes were very sexy even thought those no nudity. brando is just insane in that movie. there are scene of him doing weird stuff where you go "what the?"

spoilers

specific scenes i like: where brando and jack talk and he shoots the cabbage in his garden. i love how he describes his pistol "it's like a poem..." then he gives the pistol to jack saying there's one bullet, trying to trick him into pointing it at him or something but he doesn't fall for it - "you're smart. farmers aren't smart" basically saying "i'm onto you"
or the scene right before he kills harry dean stanton off. he tells him with a geniunly warm smile "you're the last of your kind. if i was a better business man then i am a manhunter, i'd put you in a circus".

the abrupt killing of brando's character was so shocking the first time i saw it. i have to admit my interest in the movie wains after that, with the rest of the wrapup of the rest of the story but it's still a good movie.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

The confrontation between Brando and Nicholson in the cabbage garden is a great, great scene. I love it when Brando says, "Try it, there's one left!" as he tosses the pistol to Nicholson. I love the way Nicholson says, "I doubt it," as he points the pistol to the ground, and it clicks when he pulls the trigger. Brando is daring Nicholson at the same time he's warning him. He taunts Nicholson with the idea that maybe he really has quit rustling in order to become a farmer. He wonders aloud if maybe Nicholson has "lost his nerve." "In which case," he smirks, "cabbages would be just the thing." Then Brando walks away in the sing-song taunt, "You've lost your nerve, you've lost your nerve ... "

I'm also quite fond of the shared cover story for the rustlers that they're in "the implement business."

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[–] cengelm 19 years ago

He taunts Nicholson with the idea that maybe he really has quit rustling in order to become a farmer. He wonders aloud if maybe Nicholson has "lost his nerve."

Most of what he says sounds important but is in fact trite. Like the story with the bats or ...
I'd like almost anythin' better 'n' bein' burnt up.
It creates a strange contrast when you know that the people around him are about to die.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

I might merely be making a semantic point, but I think it is the other way around with Brando's dialogue: it sounds trite but is in fact important. With the "bats analogy," he is pretty much stating his philosophy of the lethal pursuit of his quarry of rustlers. His comment about liking "almost anythin' better 'n bein' burnt up" indicates that he doesn't buy Cal's story that Nicholson stayed in the burning cabin out of pride.

However, in an odd way, I think your comment about Brando's words is also true. Such a fascinating movie.

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[–] cengelm 19 years ago

His comment about liking "almost anythin' better 'n bein' burnt up" indicates that he doesn't buy Cal's story that Nicholson stayed in the burning cabin out of pride.

Well, seeing his next step - going to sleep carelessly and satisfied - we have to assume that he thinks that Nicholson is really burnt up. Nicholson being alive had nowhere to go and would certainly be dangerous.

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[–] rrebenstorf 19 years ago

Hmmm. Are we really forced to assume that Brando is resting out of the comfort of knowing that this particular job is complete? Perhaps we are also allowed to think that Brando rests easily because he has always been the hunter and never the hunted. Plus, he knows that Nicholson had already once before failed when he had Brando point blank. Robert E. Lee Clayton is nothing if not a confident man. In that way, he is a typical Western character.

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[–] cengelm 19 years ago

Plus, he knows that Nicholson had already once before failed when he had Brando point blank.

That's a good point. Nicholson's rage wasn't developed enough at that moment but that's something he couldn't know.
In general he didn't bother too much whatever he might have been thinking. Like every confident Western villain he bites the dust.

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[–] pogglezig 18 years ago

If you want "anti-hero" western, see Sergio Corbucci's Django and The Great Silence. In The Great Silence the lead character kills bounty killers(Ironic, eh?), carries a mauser, is a mute, and it all take place in snow-covered mountains. Django is like more violent, more offensive version of Fistful of Dollars. Similar story, except one group is a KKK-like clan and the other are Mexican banditos.

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[–] cengelm 18 years ago

If you want "anti-hero" western, see Sergio Corbucci's Django and The Great Silence.

Or MCCABE & MRS.MILLER. That one denies almost all cliches.

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[–] Narrator_Jack_dot_com 18 years ago

the establishment-style music is sometimes a little too overbearing in the film. Brando FINALLY appears 35 minutes in, and he's certainly the coolest actor in this. Also cool: the stylish lighting. Particularly in the funeral, everyone looks orange. I've just realized this is also the last of Brando's arguably classic era appearances (unless you want to count playing Superman's dad. I don't).

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[–] filmscholar35 18 years ago

He was in "Apocalypse Now" after this.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 11 years ago

There are very few "bad Westerns,"to this old feller.
Seriously,how about Harry Dean's line"Not since that dog of mine put his tongue on the butter.".......I have seen this epic 12-15 times since 1976....
I love it.I gave it a 10.I want to visit that remote area before I die...I best hurry.

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[–] joekiddlouischama 16 years ago

I can't see how he was ignored (or indeed how the entire movie was) by Oscar in a year when Sly Stallone - good as he was - picked up a nomination for Best Actor. Oh well, I appreciate you, Jack...

Prior to Dances with Wolves (Kevin Costner, 1990) and Unforgiven (Clint Eastwood, 1992) in the early nineties, the Oscars almost uniformly ignored Westerns, which carried a cachet for non-prestige. I actually think that the best Western of 1976 was Eastwood's The Outlaw Josey Wales.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] MrSuave56 11 years ago

Good to hear from those of us who enjoyed this underrated film.Fine acting from
Brando and especially my man Jack!

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 11 years ago

Yes,He was Irish and so was Brando, as is Nicholson.
I have seen this beautiful movie many times since 1976 and it merely renders any current films to be......useless.

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 11 years ago

You bet.The line about not since that dog put his tongue on the butter..has been with me since the 70's.

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 11 years ago

Brando was 100% Irish in real life ....

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