MovieChat Forums > Midway (1976) Discussion > "We Caught 'em Flat Footed!"

"We Caught 'em Flat Footed!"


The most ironic comment in film for the entire Pacific theater. But were the Japs caught off guard at Midway, or the entire American military in '41 that had an estimated manpower of 100,000 personnel? Ironically, both since a lot of people were needlessly killed by poor planning.

How stupid the American public was leading up to the Second World War.

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What a great cast. You couldn't ask for a better casting of actors.

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In the context of the film, they were talking about Nagumo's carrier force.

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yes, I know

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What happened to the other thread about submarines?

 Entropy ain't what it used to be.

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That's what I was wondering myself.

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I am curious about that as well. Some interesting thoughts about the Japanese campaign that does not get a lot of mention. Also, that Yamamoto favored going on the offensive with Americans did not mean that other highly ranking officials thought the same way.

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The US Navy was well prepared in terms of ships, less so in terms of training and doctrine. FDR favored the navy in the 1930s.

The US Army was poorly funded until 1940, after which a flood of funding arrived to facilitate very rapid expansion and some major R&D programs.

 Entropy ain't what it used to be.

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It would have been nice to have started the build-up a year earlier, but anyway you slice it, the rapid build up of the Navy (and all of the armed forces) was nothing short of miraculous,especially when you consider the enormous lead times required for modern weapon systems. How long has it taken to get the F-35 up and running?

"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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The P-51, arguably the best fighter of the war, went from concept to prototype delivery in 117 days!

Then it semi-languished for a couple of years because it wasn't the Army's idea.

 Entropy ain't what it used to be.

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That's pretty amazing. I'm trying to remember my history--was it the British who first asked for the P-51? I know it became a great plane when they stuck a Merlin in one.




"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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I know it became a great plane when they stuck a Merlin in one.
It became a high-altitude capable plane with the two-stage supercharger on the Merlin (or licensed Packard-built version) compared to the Allison engine it originally had. Like the Allison powered P-40, the Allison P-51 was a above average plane at medium to low altitudes and many Mustangs with the Allison engine were used until the end of the war as fighter bombers.

Redhooks

"You don't get something for nothing, you don't get freedom for free." Neil Peart

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Exactly.

The Allison was a good basic engine, but the Army favored turbosuperchargers over mechanical superchargers for reasons that were very logical, if not fully practical. The USAAF fielded the only two significant fighters of the war with turbos, and of course all USAAF 4-engine bombers had turbos. Those two fighters, the P-38 and P-47, were very large fighters for the period, largely due to their bulky turbos. The Navy preferred mechanical superchargers and so the F4F Wildcat was the first fighter to get a 2-speed 2-stage supercharger on its Pratt&Whitney R-1830. Allison had only single-stage superchargers when they delivered the engine for the prototype Mustang, and for the P-51A. A turbo would never fit. So the early Mustangs were formidable below 10,000 feet, but sucked at high altitude.

Meanwhile Packard put a modified Merlin into production as the V-1650 to provide engines to Britain, mostly for British bombers. Late in 1942, a Packard V-1650 was fitted to a Mustang, and this engine had an excellent supercharger designed by Curtis-Wright. It gave the high-altitude performance the Mustang needed. The P-51B, with the new engine and a new fuselage fuel tank, was then hurried into production around March or April 1943.

The Allison got a good mechanical supercharger in mid-1943, but the Mustang was already in production with the Packard V-1650 by then. The P-63 got the improved Allison and had good high-altitude performance. The Allison was also used in some lightweight Mustang prototypes, the P-82 Twin Mustang, and in many/most Mustangs used for racing post-war. The most powerful factory Allison had turbo-compounding and was delivering 2800 hp in ground tests in 1945 (design goal was 2900), but that engine project was canceled before ever flying in its intended P-63 platform.

 Entropy ain't what it used to be.

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You guys kill me. I'd accuse you of cutting a pasting something off Google, but in my heart I know you have it memorized...



"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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It's my own composition from memory. You can search for that text on the internet if you like.

I own several books that cover aircraft engines of the Second World War.

 Entropy ain't what it used to be.

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I completely believe you. I can't believe any Harvard history prof. knows any more than some of the amateur historians I have met.



"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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How long has it taken to get the F-35 up and running?


Don't know yet. We're still waiting.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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I've seen four in a hanger over at Nellis and got a chance to have a good conversation with a F-35 pilot. It sounds like the USAF version, at least, is pretty close. There are disturbing aspects to it, however. For instance, did you know it can't use the AIM-9? Radar missiles only.


"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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the F-35 is the aviation version of the LCS (Little Crappy Ship)


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Hadn't heard that expression but it seems pretty apt. When I saw the F-35 it seemed to me like a cross between a UFO and a weird plastic bathtub, and that sounds a lot like the LCS.


"He was running around like a rooster in a barnyard full of ducks."--Pat Novak

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Just an opinion, but the major flaw with the F-35 is that it has just one engine instead of two. That's a big deal if one engine stops working.

But the set-back of not being able to use certain missiles, and the overall cost per unit is a lost cause as well. I expect to read about problems associated with these fighters for the remainder of my lifetime.

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Roosevelt did not get everything he wanted for the Navy prior to Pearl Harbor. The Navy was seeking replacements for its older battleships nearly a decade before PH but the effort never got far due in part to the advent of the Great Depression. Had the latter classes had gotten built much earlier than what actually happened most of the ships that were actually present during the raid probably would have been mothballed or scrapped well ahead of that day. The newer battleships could make 30 knots per hour on average so they might have well gone out with the task forces that were to deliver aircraft to Midway and Wake Island. It could have completely changed the Japanese focus on PH.

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How stupid the American public was leading up to the Second World War.
Re: "We Caught 'em Flat Footed!"


most publics are stupid leading up to most wars...look at the German one even WW2 and WW1, and it is probably a better educated public than the Anglo-American ones were..
Maybe the French were the smart ones...they seemed to groan derisively at the onset of both wars..win or lose, it does not help their hedonistic joie de vivre stuff which is what's important to them..

even today, re terrorism, each time there is an attack. Our reactions both most public and most government, is pretty idiotic and ineffectual...

the thing now is we run around with 'candle-light vigils"..I cannot even watch those *beep* idiots...our enemies are actually seething warped demented infantile obtuse retards, in few ways anywhere near as formidable or even worthy of respect as our past enemies were, and yet, they get to laugh their asses off at us...

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