'Vicar' not 'Father'


Has anyone else noticed the religious goofs in this film? The village vicar was referred to as 'Father' which was only used by Catholics, certainly in the 1940s the vicar of the village church would have been addressed as 'vicar'. The church, which was hundreds of years old, was clearly a Protestant church, most likely Church of England, Catholic churches are modern and it is highly unlikely that there would have been a Catholic church in a small village in the 1940s. When the 'vicar' and others entered the church, after the Germans had been revealed, they all genoflexed towards the alter which protestants do not do.Also the 'vicar' wore a Protestant dog-collar and not the collar of a Catholic priest. Not being a Catholic these mistakes really irritated me.

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I'm sure I heard one of the villagers refer to him as a Pastor as well!

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Sorry torchest, but it is quite possible, then as now, that the village church could have belonged to the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England. Although Norfolk did have some of the most extreme puritans and iconoclasts during the Reformation, it has always subsequently had a strong 'High Church' tradition. I could take you several right now (well, not 'right now', it's a bit late at night), within a few miles of here in West Norfolk, where the vicar/rector is 'father', the congregation genuflect and cross themselves, call communion 'mass', and where there are statues of saints as in the film (there even appears to be a monstrance in the sacristry through which they escape).

Incidentally, the church used is actually in Mapledurham, which is a long way from Norfolk, near Reading. Some of the flint walls in the film are reminiscent of this part of the world, but the countryside looks entirely different (apart fro the beaches). I notice that the present day 'vicar' of the group of parishes, of which Mapledurham is one, is designated a 'priest-in-charge'! I also notice that the church, although originally mediaeval, was given a drastic make-over in the mid-nienteenth century; hence its perhaps plain 'protestant' appearance, despite the statues.

I can only assume torchest that you're not from an Anglican background, and hence you're not aware of the variety of practice in the Church of England; both here and in its related churches world-wide.

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So glad that someone at last has cast some light on this point. As far as the genuflections are concerned, was there a tabernacle with the Reserved Sacrament on the High Altar? At least we are spared the sight of a priest wearing a biretta put on sideways or back to front. So many errors over that point in films and plays.....

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If the above argument is right, then the film-makers have made a deliberate choice to make this an Anglo-Catholic parish. This seems a bit odd - unless it is based on an idiosyncratic choice in the book. Surely it would be more natural to present a standard Anglicanism as part of the depiction of an "everyman" English village. In fact they foreground the "Catholic" practices: the mention of "mass", the genuflections - which they could easily have left out. I think film-makers tend to choose to depict Catholic practices because they are more picturesque, and this might be the case here.

The role of the priest is rather strange as well. It's as if he's the de facto mayor: Steiner as a supposedly Polish officer informs him of their plans for manoeuvres. Maybe this is or was the case in small English villages...

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I'm the son of an Anglican priest and my dad is referred to as 'Father'. For Anglicans this is the correct conversational form of address for any ordained member of the clergy.

You have to remember that Anglicanism did not originate from Lutherian principles. Henry VIII broke away from Rome and declared himself the head of the Catholic Church in England. This later became a form of Protestantism under Elizabeth's rule. As a result Anglicanism is deeply rooted in Catholic ritual. In the Anglican church traditional Masses are celebrated as well as more modern versions. The tendancy is for older parishes to be more deeply rooted in traditional rituals. In such an old church as the one used, more contemporary practices would be out of place.

Many English villages were governed by rural district councils who, during wartime, would have been responsible for liasing with the military about local manoeuvres. These rural councils frequently comprised of the local clergy, landowners and postmaster - so the priest's role in that respect is also quite accurate.

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The church being catholic is not a goof in the film as was originally claimed. In the novel, Higgins clearly states that it is catholic:

"..the barman there told me there was a catholic church here at Studley Constable."

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Fellwanderer wrote:The church being catholic is not a goof in the film as was originally claimed. In the novel, Higgins clearly states that it is catholic:

"..the barman there told me there was a catholic church here at Studley Constable."

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Well everybody, that settles it. The small church is Roman Catholic, probably built in the 19th century when Roman Catholicism as a recognized religion was re-established in England proper.

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The church being catholic is not a goof in the film as was originally claimed. In the novel, Higgins clearly states that it is catholic:


It's definitely not a goof.

I think some of these type of queries have come about because there are different versions of the film floating around with lengths differing between 123 and 145 minutes. Clearly the shorter versions have scenes trimmed and deleted.

I just finished watching an extended version of the film, where as a poster mentioned above, there is a very clear and obvious discussion between Liam Devlin and Father Verecker that establishes he is a catholic priest ministering in a catholic church.

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I too thought it was odd that the film (and apparently the source book) chose to present a Catholic church as the social centre of the village, with its priest being deferred to (by Steiner) as the de facto leader not just of his "small but loyal" congregation, but seemingly of the whole village (can you spot a single villager who does not seem to be a member of his congregation?). You have only to ask "Where is the village vicar?" to see how anomalous the situation is.

While the depiction of the church and congregation is apparently true to the book, what is definitely a gaffe in the filming is that the building used to represent this Catholic church is quite clearly (from its size, age, and position) the village's parish church, and hence Anglican.

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He was referred to as "Father" because he was a catholic. I've just checked and he clearly asks Devlin if he is catholic - not unusual for someone from Eire! He also refers to the fact that they have a small but loyal congregation - not likely for a CoE church in the 1940s.

That would also explain why they genuflected on entering the church - they were catholics!

Having no religious beliefs of any kind, I'm unaware of the difference between various ecclesiastical collars.

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to Fellwanderer: But it is just a film. And we really don't know whether the film makers intended the church to be Roman Catholic or Anglican. Why would it be unusual for an Anglican priest to ask an Irishman if he is Catholic? A northern Irishman in England, a veteran soldier who served the Empire at that, could very well be Anglican. So it was a logical and fair question.

As for the priest's remark about having "a small but loyal congregation," no conclusion as to the church's affiliation could be deduced from that. Any church in a community of mostly nominal believers could have only a "small but loyal congregation" from among them.

But you may be right about the church being Catholic because one of Steiner's wounded soldiers did tell the priest: "I'll call for you if I need you." A German solder in WWII would be an unlikely Anglican. He could be a Lutheran or some other kind of Protestant in which case just what sort of ministration would he expect from an Anglican priest - confession, communion, extreme unction? Would that be.....errrrr....."kosher"?
But he could have been a Catholic as many Germans were/are and he recognized the church as a Catholic one and hence he could receive the sacraments from its priest.

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to torchet: "Catholic churches are modern and it is highly unlikely that there would have been a Catholic church in a small village in the 1940s."

Not necessarily. The Anglicans took over most of the medieval Catholic churches, e.g. Canterbury Cathedral. Indeed some were destroyed or converted to secular use, particularly those of the monasteries of the major Catholic religious Orders. But there were enough that were simply taken over by the Church of England. Obviously, the church in the film ministered to "High Anglicans" - those who kept most of the rituals and customs of the ancient faith and that would have included genuflecting towards the altar and tabernacle and also calling their prelates "father." In its early years, Henry VII and his Anglicans did not consider themselves Protestants, whom the king roundly despised, but rather as the "real"
Catholics. The Church of England became identified with the wider Protestant movement only during and after the reign of Elizabeth I under whose reign the 39 Articles of Religion were legislated. Today it is in communion with several mainline Protestant churches. English monarchs who were the heads of the Church of England and their governments discriminated against evangelical Protestant sects like the Anabaptists, Puritans and Quakers effectively hounding them out of England with large numbers of them emigrating to the New World. Today there are still High Anglicans ("smells and bells" Christians) who keep enough of the ancient Catholic terminologies and rituals so much so that the modern vernacular Catholic mass look more like Protestant services or fellowships while the High Anglican mass closely resemble the medieval Catholic mass.
The masses and rituals that the Royal Family attends are High Anglican in ritual.

A parish depending on its size or origins may be headed by a vicar, rector or a parish priest. "Vicar" is more of the title of a position rather than an honorific title like "Father." One may call a Vicar "Father," especially during confession or when seeking counsel.

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From the posts above it appears that the church was Catholic in the book, so I think that settles it. Whether a small Catholic congregation would have an old church in the 1940s is another issue.

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I know the interesting question you raised has already been answered (it is a Catholic church in the film/book) however, I would just like to add that despite our own village church down here in west Cornwall being Anglican and not Catholic, the vicar is referred to as 'Father' and then by his Christian name, eg 'Father Harry', 'Father Bryn' etc. However, we now have a female vicar and she is referred to either as Reverend and then her name or simply just by her Christian name. Calling her 'Mother' would just sound very odd.
Secondly, whilst many Catholic churches are indeed modern, strictly speaking I suppose, all churches built before the Reformation would have been Catholic as there was no Protestantism until then, and there are many further Catholic churches and cathedrals built since then and before the 20thC. Many small villages in the UK have a Catholic church as well as an Anglican, I've lived in two villages that had both, and one village I lived also had a Baptist, Methodist and United Reform church too as well as the Anglican and Catholic (thankfully, it also had five pubs) Funnily enough, it was the Anglican church which was a modern building, the Catholic church being 13th century.

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It's mentioned quite often that it's a Catholic church in the film.

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Yes, that may not have been 100% clear in the various shortened versions, but in the full version it's made quite clear.

Why on earth did they do that? As any number of people here have said, not only is the church Catholic but Studley Constable is portrayed as a solidly Catholic village, with the priest occupying the exact social role of an Anglican vicar, which everyone familiar with English life knows is utterly implausible. So what was the point - what pay-off was there for the production? Maybe it had some plot function in the book, but there was none whatever in the film, so they would have done far better simply to drop it and have it as an Anglican church and vicar, and let the whole thing make more sense.

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