MovieChat Forums > All the President's Men (1976) Discussion > Why did Nixon order Watergate in the fir...

Why did Nixon order Watergate in the first place?


I can't remember which person working at the Post remarked "it doesn't make any sense" when referring to Nixon ordering the break in at Watergate, but that's a question I think about quite often when watching this film. Nixon won the 1972 election in a landslide. To those that were alive (I wasn't born until '76) during the period, was there ever any doubt that he would lose? It reminds me a lot of the 1984 election. Even as a young kid that didn't keep up with political things very much, I knew that Reagan was going to win before the election even took place. It seems that the '72 election was very much the same. Was Nixon really that paranoid? What exactly was he hoping to dig up information wise?


Conquer your fear, and I promise you, you will conquer death.

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Was Nixon really that paranoid? What exactly was he hoping to dig up information wise?


Yes, Nixon really was that paranoid.

As the documentary linked below makes clear, Nixon didn't just want to win in 1972; he wanted to TRIUMPH. He wanted the kind of mandate that came with the biggest landslide in history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxTzxi5jHYg

He was also obsessed with his perceived enemies and kept an "enemies list." He wanted to know who was against him, what they were saying and how they could be dealt with. Nixon was MASSIVELY paranoid; even Hollywood freaked him out. Paul Newman considered his inclusion on the "enemies list" a veritable badge of honor.

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Bizarre as it sounds, Watergate, ten years later, was largely about the assassination of JFK... Numerous key figures in Watergate (Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis) were in Dallas for the assassination in 1963 (which Hunt recently confessed to on paper and audiotape just before his death).

Watergate was not so much about the break-in at national DNC headquarters, but attempts to protect the intelligence's black-operations, most noteably, as Nixon cryptically said, "that whole Bay of Pigs thing" (an odd comments since everything about the Bay of Pigs had supposedly been public knowledge for a decade). It was a reference to what happened in Dallas, and led Nixon and CIA-demigod Richard Helms to essentially blackmail each other during the Watergate scandal regarding all they "had' on each other.

Nixon's White House aide, H R Haldeman, believed that "the whole Bay of Pigs thing" was a reference to the assassination, and was told by Nixon that fellow aide, John Ehrlichman, "knows all about it."

When asked by respected Republican senator Howard Baker what he knew about JFK's death, Nixon responded, "You don't want to know."


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Interesting theory. I'd like to hear more.

Conquer your fear, and I promise you, you will conquer death.

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Well, recent investigations even seem to suggest that Nixon -- no object of sympathy to most of us -- may have actually been set up.

For decades I would have scoffed at this. But that's exactly why Tricky Dicky would have made a plausible patsy.

We think of Nixon as totally corrupt and a rightwinger, but once he got into office, he started doing things which made the establishment who'd put him there nervous: considering rolling back the lucrative oil depletion allowance, pushing pro-environmental policies, opening up China -- all sorts of things the rightwing hated -- to help establish a populist legacy which always makes you look better in the history books.

Not so fast, Richard...

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.

Time to recalibrate. Even Nixon, of all people, can be a semi-victim.

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Non-sequiturs are delicious.

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[deleted]

Hal Holbrook as Deep Throat confirms this in the film when he says the coverup had less to do with the bugging of Democratic HQ than "largely to protect the covert operations."

Miss Jean Louise? Miss Jean Louise, stand up. Your father's passing.

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"it doesn't make any sense" when referring to Nixon ordering the break in at Watergate... Nixon won the 1972 election in a landslide.
It's the supreme irony isn't it. But as Donald Segretti makes clear to them that sort of compulsion to engage in those sort of activities was embedded in the Republican machinery of the times.

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Nixon was seriously engaged in trying to destroy the Democrats once and for all. The Dems were in the midst of an horrific split between two factions (old school Dems and Hippies really) that ended in their 68 primary with riot police being called in and beating people up.

Nixon's youth movement and aides did crazy things that they called "dirty tricks" or "rat F---ing" where they would call up to hotels that had reservations for the Democrats and cancel them. They would order room service pretending to be people at conventions. They would book multiple locations under the Dems names and then misdirect people to these locations so that they couldn't get a decent crowd built up and so that it looked like they were disorganized and possibly like it was done intentionally so that one "side" of the Dem party was trying to mess with the other.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Nixon didn't necessarily think that his political career ended with his presidency. The Frost/Nixon tapes were seen by people from within his own ranks as an attempt to clear his name and possibly lead to a come back (referenced in the F/N film) probably in the US Senate shooting for a spot as the Senate leader for the GOP.

So why did he order the break in? Presuming that he did (and short of a setup with the intention of being caught this is a safe assumption) the information garnered from within the documents would have been helpful to further disrupt the Democrats. It would also work as a bit of psychological terror, and some of the Dems with weaker stomachs but stronger brains might put two and two together and figure out that it was Nixon who ordered it and just decide to quit rather than face his wrath. Hunter Thompson talked about this in several of his books, how going up against Nixon would result in extra police scrutiny, IRS investigations etc.

So it wasn't so much an isolated incident so much as it was an isolated incident of a series of escalating incidents that they just happened to get caught in the middle of.

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I just watched this film again. The idea of Nixon as a kind of patsy is an interesting one. I wonder how many in the corriders of power used the cover up as a stick to beat him with. Its funny because anyone with any knowledge of it is just as complicit. Had Nixon not been the main focus of the brewing scandal ( as in if it had of been another, smaller scandal ) this would have been an non issue for him I think, as the stick they were using to beat him with would have been there're own ruination too, although I suppose that wouldn't have happened as only an idiot would take focus off of a storm in a teacup by blackmailing someone with any aspect of a larger scandal that they had prior knowledge of. I found the notion of those in power blackmailing others in power behind closed doors brought up in this thread to be food for thought. That wasnt how it panned out for Nixon mind, his brewing scandal was big enough on its own. Great film mind.

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People should google "The Business Plot FDR Prescott Bush" regarding the 1934 plan to overthrow the gov't (and possibly assassinate FDR) using a respected general to do it.

The intent was to install a Hitlerian-style fascist government in America.

It failed when that general, Smedley Butler, went public with it, saying he was "tired of being a gangster for capitalism." (He had helped overthrow many democratically elected governments in small countries who were resistant to American corporate influence during the '20s).

The press media, already controlled by big business even then, ridiculed Butler and his story, but Roosevelt and the congress took it quite seriously and held public hearings... Nothing was really done because the plot involved some of the biggest families and corporations in America. But 30 years later, the "ancient work" may have been completed when Kennedy died with some of the same shadowy interests possibly involved.

Sound ridiculous? Probably, since 99% of the population has ever even heard of THe Business Plot even after 80 years.

But it's quite checkable.

The point being: as cartoonishly corrupt as Nixon was, there's always somebody bigger and badder and richer and more clandestine. And they have numerous ways to take down the Commander and Chief.

They've done it before and they'll do it again.

Political party has little to do with it.

And the CIA didn't really work for Kennedy nor Nixon, but for Big Money. As it does today.


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Non-sequiturs are delicious.

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Its happened before and it will happen again. There is more truth to Battlestar Galactica 2003 than fiction in my opinion. Off topic I know but some of your post reminded me of it.

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We don't know that he did, or that he knew anything about it beforehand. What we do know, and what would certainly have led to his impeachment, is that he used hundreds of thousands in campaign funds to create an illegal slush fund, and his select group of thugs were given pretty free reign in using it to finance all sorts of dirty tricks against those on his "Enemies List". After the attempted bugging of the DNC office failed, he then authorized the use of this fund to finance a cover up. Especially galling is that he was abetted by John Mitchell and L Patrick Gray, former Attorney General and acting head of the FBI, respectively. It was a pretty low time.

You are correct in that he had the election in the bag. But he was an extraordinarily paranoid man who saw plots everywhere. It has also been suggested that the dirty tricks campaign against the Democrats (his gang called it *beep* started very early in the campaign when his lead was a bit more tenuous and, once in motion, no one thought to call a halt when Nixon's lead was assured.

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Well, that's the traditional take on Watergate. Today, it looks even murkier than that.

Oh, and Ben Bradlee died today, age 93.

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The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

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No other president kept an active list of people he "hated" and none was as anti semitic as he.

Paranoid doesn't begin to describe it. However, I'm sure there are psychiatrists out there who have made some diagnosis of him, and others who'd trade their MD degrees for a few hours "visiting" with him, if it were possible.

He ordered the break in, in part, to satisfy his sick curiosity about the Democratic National Committee (nixon was a control freak) and also to find out more to discredit them should the occasion arise.

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There's no place like home.

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Again, that's the traditional take on Watergate.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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However, it should be pointed out that not everyone who read Russell Baker's "Family of Secrets" felt it was, as you put it, "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." Some thought Baker had overreached with his theories and hadn't convincingly proved them, while others simply considered his book preposterous.

I'm hardly keen on the Bush clan myself, but the fact remains Nixon was undone by his own actions and his own words.

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The quote about it being "one of the most important books of the last ten years" didn't originate with me. Is the book "preposterous"? Probably not. Is it gospel? I wouldn't think so, either.

I'm no defender of Nixon -- much of his reputation well-prior to Watergate is well deserved, and a book like Baker's is always going to elicit wild disagreement. But the activities of the Bushes since the '30s (a lot of which Baker left out!) really needs to be looked at.

I've been slow, myself, at pointing the finger at the Bushes, but there is something going on there.

A role in Watergate? We won't find out for sure.

But the popular narrative appears to be deeply flawed. And Nixon, though the co-architect of much of his own destruction, seemed to have had some help --- and there's always somebody meaner and more powerful who isn't so visible.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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The quote about it being "one of the most important books of the last ten years" didn't originate with me.



No, it turns out the person who made that questionable claim was Gore Vidal, the once-brilliant man of letters who became a full-blown crackpot in his final years. He was no stranger to conspiracy theories himself, believing that FDR played a part in the bombing of Pearl Harbor; he later described Timothy McVeigh (the wacko responsible for blowing up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma) as a "noble boy."

And while opinions certainly varied when it came to "Family of Secrets," it was indeed described as "preposterous" by the book critic for the Los Angeles Times.

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Not an accurate dismissal of Vidal. But you smugly pimp all "official versions" of everything because they make you feel smart & cozy.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Not an accurate dismissal of Vidal.




Who said it was a dismissal? I'm just quoting facts.

Vidal's description of Timothy McVeigh as a "noble boy" and his three-year correspondence with him is a FACT.

Vidal's belief that FDR played a part in Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor is a FACT.

And Vidal's endorsement of Russ Baker's "Family of Secrets" is a FACT.

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Read SILENT COUP by Len Colodny and Robert Gettlin and IT DIDN'T START WITH WATERGATE by Victor Lasky.

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Thanks for the advice, I'm going to check those out.

Conquer your fear, and I promise you, you will conquer death.

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The book by Victor Lasky (who wrote a series of anti-liberal, anti-Democrat books) was written in 1975-76 and is mainly a compilation of the various illegal and unethical and unflattering acts committed by FDR, JFK, and LBJ. There is a little bit about Watergate but not much, and what little there is, is difficult to understand. I think Lasky was frankly struggling to figure out how to present Nixon's Watergate transcripts in the most appealing light.

The book by Colodny/Gettlin is interesting for a lot of reasons. It appears to have been originally conceived as an attack on Bob Woodward of the Washington Post. But once it finally got into print in 1991, it covered 4 main areas:
1. Accusing Alexander Haig (Nixon's chief of staff from May 1973 to August 1974) of being "Deep Throat";
2. Accusing John Dean of having given the original "order" to break into the Watergate complex in the first place;
3. An autopsy of the "Moorer/Radford Affair", which involved an ongoing effort by the Joint Chiefs of Staff to monitor the communications between Nixon and Kissinger; and
4. An explanation of what specific information the original 5 Watergate burglars were looking for in May/June 1972.

The bit about Haig-as-Deep-Throat was highly controversial when the book was published and -- according to Monica Crowley -- Nixon himself did not believe that was true. Nearly a quarter of a century later, I don't think anyone really believes Haig was Deep Throat anymore. The overwhelming consensus is that it was Mark Felt of the FBI. Ironically, John Dean himself had written a book ("Lost Honor") in 1982 that also accused Haig of being Deep Throat.

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I have read a lot the available White House transcripts, and a lot of the books about Watergate. I have yet to come across any statements by Nixon, Haldeman, Mitchell, Colson, or Ehrlichman, that would indicate any of them had prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in. Honestly, I don't believe that any of them did have prior knowledge of it. But unless/until we can hear the contents of the famous "18-and-a-half minute gap" on the tape of 20 June 1972 (a conversation between Nixon and Haldeman), I hesitate to say for sure.

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I don't think anybody other than a demagogue seriously believes Watergate was a liberal Democrat "dirty tricks" campaign. But Russ Baker came to believe it was a Republican plot. Kind of.

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http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/tubesteak69/Divas_Who_Drink-1. jpg

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Russ Baker, the "Family of Secrets" guy? If that's who you're referring to, I'd be interested to know what he's written on the subject.

I agree that the notion of the Watergate break-in being part of a *Democrat* dirty-tricks campaign is bizarre. There is some evidence that James McCord openly announced his intention of breaking into the DNC's Watergate offices a few months in advance, and made the announcement(s) in such a way as to tip-off various people who could be expected to share the information with Larry O'Brien and other high-ranking Democrats. But even if we assume that is the case, that is still a long ways away from being a Democratic plot.

In any event, James McCord -- born in 1924 and still living, last I heard -- has never come fully clean (or even close to it) about his actions, his intentions, his motives, and his knowledge of all the various events that comprise "Watergate". After 40+ years, I suppose he plans to take those secrets to his grave, if he hasn't already. But let it be said as plainly as possible: a lot of the things James McCord said and did in that era are absolutely inexplicable, *Unless* you accept the premise that he was deliberately intending to subvert the Nixon Administration all along. If there was a "Republican plot" of some kind, I'd bet he was a part of it.

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Regardless of how Nixon got to the White House, once there, adopting populist policies is the best route to attaining a positive legacy in history. And Nixon knew this.

Yes, he dragged his feet on getting out of Vietnam -- doing otherwise would have destroyed his presidency, so he waited until he'd been elected to a second term and then mobilized to get us out of Vietnam, and it destroyed his presidency anyway. (People forget that although the break-in happened in Summer '72, it kind of disappeared in the press for a few months, reappearing after his reelection in November and his movement towards withdrawal from Nam in January '73).

That, and other centrist or left-leaning actions taken by Nixon, likely caused his downfall with the establishment who got mad at him about it, feeling betrayed.

So they may have used his well-earned Tricky Dick reputation against him, making it easy to set him up on Watergate. And there are good reasons to suspect this indeed may have happened.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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So they may have used his well-earned Tricky Dick reputation against him, making it easy to set him up on Watergate.




Please, Nixon wasn't "set up." Nixon was the architect of his own downfall. Nixon lied to the country. Nixon attempted to use his position as president to subvert an investigation into Watergate, and he failed. Nixon broke the law.

You may have found "Family of Secrets" convincing, but yes, others have found it preposterous. It's a book that offers theories, and nothing more; don't treat it as the word of God.

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Please, Nixon wasn't "set up." Nixon was the architect of his own downfall. Nixon lied to the country. Nixon attempted to use his position as president to subvert an investigation into Watergate, and he failed. Nixon broke the law.

You may have found "Family of Secrets" convincing, but yes, others have found it preposterous. It's a book that offers theories, and nothing more; don't treat it as the word of God.


You just did it again, murph24.

I just said Nixon was the architect of his own downfall, for the most part. And I also said I'm no Nixon apologist.

And I also said "Family of Secrets" isn't necessarily the word of God, so no one here is treating it that way. So you're just repeating those accusations selectively.

The only person exercising faux authority in insisting definitively that they "know" what Watergate was about for sure is you. There's your "word of God" right there.

Somebody has an agenda.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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I just said Nixon was the architect of his own downfall, for the most part



And you also said "So they may have used his well-earned Tricky Dick reputation against him, making it easy to set him up on Watergate."

These were your exact words; I only cut & pasted them.

Clearly, Nixon wasn't "set up" by anyone. Nixon was responsible for the creation of the "plumbers unit" (headed by Hunt & Liddy) that broke into Daniel Ellsberg's office and later the Watergate complex. Nixon was the one who tried to derail a federal investigation into Watergate. Nixon blatantly lied to the country. And the evidence is right there in the tapes.

Once again, and it's a point that can't be overstressed, Nixon wasn't "set up" by anybody - not by the CIA, and not by the Bush family. His downfall was brought about by his OWN actions. Others may have benefitted from his hubris and mistaken belief he was above the law, but he was entirely responsible for the collapse of his own presidency.

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And you also said "So they may have used his well-earned Tricky Dick reputation against him, making it easy to set him up on Watergate."

These were your exact words; I only cut & pasted them.

Clearly, Nixon wasn't "set up" by anyone. Nixon was responsible for the creation of the "plumbers unit" (headed by Hunt & Liddy) that broke into Daniel Ellsberg's office and later the Watergate complex. Nixon was the one who tried to derail a federal investigation into Watergate. Nixon blatantly lied to the country. And the evidence is right there in the tapes.

Once again, and it's a point that can't be overstressed, Nixon wasn't "set up" by anybody - not by the CIA, and not by the Bush family. His downfall was brought about by his OWN actions. Others may have benefitted from his hubris and mistaken belief he was above the law, but he was entirely responsible for the collapse of his own presidency.

The problem is that you cut & pasted selectively.

The only person here who is claiming (yet again) that they know what happened for sure in Watergate is you.

And you clearly have no better idea than anybody else, as you sputter the official version over and over.

Perhaps the official version is indeed what happened. But you're no reliable source for it, nor are your sources' sources.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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No, I didn't cut & paste selectively; you're the one who used the words "set him up," and you haven't produced a shred of convincing evidence that Nixon was "set up" by anyone.

Actually, it sounds like you're the one who knows nothing about Watergate and the events leading up to it. You've simply had your brain programmed by Russ Baker's conspiracy theories and you're trying to present them as THE FACTS. But they're not; they're just conspiracy theories.

The Bush family is a sinister lot and they've been involved in some unsavory and sordid $hit, but you can't blame them for everything. Or do you think Bush's great-grandfather hopped aboard the Titanic in 1912 & steered it toward an iceberg?

You practically genuflect before Russ Baker and "Family of Secrets," saying that some have called it "one of the most important books of the last 10 years" while conveniently leaving out the fact that other critics have called the book "preposterous" and stated the author had "overplayed his hand" and "exceeded his grasp" by creating specious scenarios which he failed to prove. If anyone is being selective here, it's you.

If you've bought into Baker's "Behind every rock, there's a Bush" dogma, fine - no one is saying you can't believe what you want to believe. But stop trying to pass his theories off as widely accepted doctrines; they're nothing of the kind. Are they creative? Yes. Has he been able to prove them? Of course not.

But like I say, believe whatever you want; it's a free country.

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People like you always brag about your allegiance to THE FACTS and call any dispute as to what they might be "conspiracy theories".

You don't know what the facts are anymore than anybody else does.

And your credibility is further damaged by dogmatically misrepresenting other peoples' dogmaticness, including that I've "bought into Baker's 'Behind every rock, there's a Bush' dogma". I have not, but it's worth looking at and you're unable to, always insisting you're being loyal to "facts" you don't really know what are except to repeat the conventional, establishment story like you're a grown up.

And why are you obsessed with Russ Baker and his book?? I'm certainly not, but maybe strawman argumentation is the only trick you've got...

Stop pretending you're being objective. You're not and it's obnoxious.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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And why are you obsessed with Russ Baker and his book?? I'm certainly not...

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Oh, come now - who are you trying to kid? YOU were the one who first brought up Baker's name and "Family of Secrets." Once again, I'm cutting and pasting your exact words here; you wrote them on November 23, 2013 at 11:49:36 -

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics

Not only that, you've mentioned Baker's name and quoted his talking points from the book at various times throughout this thread.

And if you honestly believe that when Nixon mentioned "the whole Bay of Pigs thing" to Haldeman that they both knew he was talking about the Kennedy assassination (!), I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

But like I said, you're free to believe whatever you want. It's a free country.

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You just did it again, murph.

And a reference to a book doesn't qualify as the obsession you seem to have with Baker's tome, your using it to dismiss even discussing anything which goes against the establishment version of Watergate.

How can you stand yourself -- or can you??

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Yes, I did it again; I quoted your EXACT words.

Not sure why you're getting your panties in such a wad; I'm only pointing out the things you neglected to mention. Like the fact that even Rick Tuttle, Baker's mentor at UCLA, couldn't endorse the conclusions he reached in "Family of Secrets."

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You're doing a lot of projecting, which leads me to believe you're wearing panties your own bad self.

And what is your fixation on Baker's book? One reference from me and you wind up in women's underwear!

And Tuttle has some weight in this issue, does he? The establishment always shuns books that don't follow the chosen, preferred narrative.

You have an agenda of some sort.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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You have an agenda of some sort.


Nope, no agenda. But I know the difference between fact and conspiracy theory.

And obviously, despite your denials, you're the one who has a fixation on Baker's book. Once again, your exact words from November 23, 2013 -

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.

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Nope, no agenda. But I know the difference between fact and conspiracy theory.

Ah, but you don't.


And obviously, despite your denials, you're the one who has a fixation on Baker's book.

Despite you denials, you're the one who has a fixation on Baker's book. I merely mentioned it -- you're obsessed with it.


--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Despite you denials, you're the one who has a fixation on Baker's book. I merely mentioned it.





You not only mentioned it, you introduced it as a topic and painted quite a rosy picture of it (these are your exact words here):

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.

So why are you denying what you wrote? Why are you denying that practically all your talking points throughout this thread have come straight from Russ Baker's book? Are you now embarrassed that you mentioned it?

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"Denying" what? I made a reference -- you seem obsessed by it. Frankly, you've interested me to go back and read it again!

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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"Denying" what? I made a reference --


Oh, you did a lot more than that.

You told people to READ "Family of Secrets" - and then followed that with a bit of phantom praise (unattributed, of course) describing it as "one of the most important books of the last 10 years."

So who, exactly, called it "one of the most important books of the last 10 years."? You? Russ Baker's mother? And why have you repeated all of the book's nutty conspiracy theories and unsubstantiated claims throughout this thread?

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I mentioned the book. You're obsessed with it.

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I mentioned the book.



Actually, you've done far more than that. You not only instructed people to read it, you've restated its conspiracy theories throughout this thread. In addition, you described it as "one of the most important books of the last 10 years."

As long as you keep denying what you wrote, I'll keep reprinting your EXACT words - especially since they make it clear your reference to the book went far beyond a casual "mention" -


Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.

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Like I said, I mentioned the book. You're obsessed by it, or by the fact that I dared mentioned it.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Like I said, I mentioned the book



No, you didn't just "mention" the book. You urged people to read it, then produced an absurd claim that it was "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." This hardly constitutes a mere "mention." Your exact words from your original post of 11/23/13, which you keep (conveniently) forgetting -

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.




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What is your obsession with Baker's book?

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Why do you keep denying that you told people to read Baker's book?

Once again, these are the exact words you wrote on November 23, 2013 -

Read "Family of Secrets" by Russ Baker, what some have called "one of the most important books of the last 10 years." It certainly shows the Bush family to have cast a long and malevolent shadow over the last half century (at least) of American politics in a way never suspected by those of us who once saw Bush41 as an affable goof and Bush43 as an arrogant goof.




And you talked about Baker again on March 21, 2015 -

I don't think anybody other than a demagogue seriously believes Watergate was a liberal Democrat "dirty tricks" campaign. But Russ Baker came to believe it was a Republican plot.


So, what is YOUR obsession with Baker's book?


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Chasing Shadows by Ken Hughes is a great book that reveals Nixon's dirty tricks even before becoming president.

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I have heard of "Chasing Shadows" and I'd like to read it. I agree that the book's topic -- examining the role of Nixon (+ his supporters, and other people) vis-a-vis the authorities in Saigon and the ongoing negotiations in 1968 between the Johnson Administration and Ho Chi Minh's representatives in Paris -- is a crucial subject, worthy of close study. That said, the South Vietnamese already knew that Nixon was more "hawkish" than Humphrey. They didn't need Anna Chennault or anyone else to explain that to them.

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Nixon stayed in Vietnam until he was reelected, and then started mobilizing to withdraw --- and then The System turned on him.

I'm no Nixon apologist and I've reviled him for eons. But we'll never fully understand what Watergate was really about ... or who controlled it.

--

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/tubesteak69/Divas_Who_Drink-1.jpg

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Nixon stayed in Vietnam until he was reelected, and then started mobilizing to withdraw --- and then The System turned on him.



Actually, Nixon had committed the acts that would cost him the White House long before he was reelected; these included authorizing the break-in of Dr. Lewis Fielding's office (Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist) in 1971 and obstructing a federal investigation of Watergate in June of 1972. The latter was the "smoking gun" that, when it was made public, effectively ended his presidency.

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There was a joke in the 1990s about Nixon's similarity to Monica Lewinski.

After Nixon fired Special Watergate Prosecutor Archibald Cox a bumper sticker came out saying "Richard Nixon is a Coxsacker."

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Haven't read it. Revelations?

--
LBJ's mistress tells all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Probably the best book on this topic is still J. Anthony Lukac's Nightmare. Nixon had a pattern for unethical covert behavior - sabotaging political opponents, undermining foreign regimes, rigging military trials, bugging journalists and diplomats he didn't like, down to holding price-fixing meetings with corporate contributors in the Oval Office. Watergate is only strange if viewed in isolation.

I'm afraid that you underestimate the number of subjects in which I take an interest!

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President Nixon did not order the Watergate break in and bugging. He was never charged with it, no one that was in on it ever accused him of it, and, in fact, members of his staff cleared him from actually ordering it.

He had given non-specific orders to keep an eye on the Democrats. Someone below him within his group, I don't know if they ever figured out who, issued the orders. I think it was G. Gordon Liddy who admitted to hiring the actual team that did the break in.

What got the President in trouble was that he led the charge to cover up his own complicity. His efforts to cover up the actions of people working on his behalf constituted obstruction of justice. It's as serious a crime as lying under oath in a civil lawsuit, but that's a different story.

Neither one is as serious as violating Title 18 USC by releasing classified material through an unsecure, personal email server, and that is still another story.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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Hey folks...after watching again last nite for the umpteenth time, has anyone mentioned that Deep Throat said clearly that Watergate was just a tiny piece of the puzzle? And also that the "project" (for want of a better word) had been going on for a long time before the Watergate break in?

Excuse me if anyone mentioned this already...it's a long thread with many impassioned posts and I haven't had the opportunity to read them all.

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It does seem as if that point is almost ignored -- or some people assume that because he was president, that Nixon was the one running all the intelligence puzzle. And of course he wasn't.

Not to defend Nixon, of course. But Kennedy's problem with the intelligence community came from the fact it was setting policy and acting autonomously. There's no reason to assume that this wasn't still true when Nixon was in the oval office (even if he gave them less hassle).



--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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Deep Throat's exact line in the film:

DEEP THROAT: The cover-up had little to do with Watergate; it was mainly to protect
the covert operations.

And the covert operation Nixon's men were desperate to keep under wraps was the attempted burglary of Daniel Ellsberg's medical files from the office of his psychiatrist; it was something they believed had the greatest potential of damaging Nixon's chances of being reelected.

The fact that it also involved some of the men who'd broken into the Watergate complex was another element that Nixon's men wanted to keep secret.

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The point is whose covert operations.

But never get in the way of the preferred official version of anything, ;)

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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The point is whose covert operations



You really don't know? Or do you still believe that behind every rock is a Bush?


We're talking about Nixon's covert operations. You've heard of Nixon, right? Nixon created a plumber's unit to "plug up the leaks" following Daniel Ellsberg's release of the Pentagon Papers.

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No, I don't, and neither do you. (And who said anything about Bush?)

Stop playing grown up who claims he deals in "the facts", murph. You're a smirking establishmentarian enabler.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA


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No, I don't, and neither do you.


No, you obviously don't. However, I do know what transpired, because I lived through it. And those who didn't only have to research Nixon's presidency and those involved in his covert operations (Howard Hunt, Gordon Liddy, Jeb Magruder, Chuck Colson, HR Haldeman, John Erlichman and John Dean, among others) to learn what happened.

You, on the other hand, have had your brain programmed by Russ Baker and his "behind-every-rock-is-a-Bush" conspiracy theories, so I'm not surprised you're unaware of what actually took place during the Watergate period.

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President Nixon did not order the Watergate break in and bugging. He was never charged with it, no one that was in on it ever accused him of it, and, in fact, members of his staff cleared him from actually ordering it.

He had given non-specific orders to keep an eye on the Democrats. Someone below him within his group, I don't know if they ever figured out who, issued the orders. I think it was G. Gordon Liddy who admitted to hiring the actual team that did the break in.



As to the first point, Jeb Magruder later stated he overheard a telephone conversation in which Nixon gave the go-ahead for the bugging operation. Some of Magruder's claims have been met with (perhaps understandable) skepticism, but he was nonetheless a member of Nixon's staff and definitely implicated the former president.

The orders to gather documents and intelligence were actually rather specific, and according to HR Haldeman, they emanated from the Oval Office. Initially, Nixon wanted to obtain sensitive documents he believed Ellsberg had placed in the Brookings Institute safe; he didn't care HOW they were obtained, all he care about was getting them. And so a plan was devised to firebomb the institution and, in the ensuing chaos, remove the documents from the safe. The operation was called off, but the team selected for the job now set their sights on the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist; their job was to gain access to Ellsberg's private files and, hopefully, smear him. And as we all know, they trashed the office but discovered no personal files.

The break-in team, AKA the White House Plumbers, was assembled by Howard Hunt; they were recruited from individuals Hunt worked with when he was involved with the 1961 Bay of Pigs operation. Gordon Liddy's responsibility was the creation of various schemes that would gather intelligence about Democratic Party activities and strategies. Most of his ideas (often involving call girls and kidnapping) were dismissed as ludicrous by the President's men; they advised him to concentrate on electronic surveillance and bugging. And so their new target became Larry O'Brien's office at National Democratic Headquarters - in other words, Watergate.

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Good info, Murph. Thank you for the detail.

I admit that Watergate has always been peripheral in my interests and I have only listened to it on the fringes. Nixon got caught, was forced to resign by the Republicans, and would have been impeached and convicted had he not resigned. That's pretty much the end of the story for me. I am grateful that others have had enough in the details of the history to keep us honest with ourselves.


The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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