MovieChat Forums > When the Boat Comes In (1976) Discussion > History Lesson Needed

History Lesson Needed

posted 14 years ago by carl-133
33 replies | jump to latest

I've just started watching this for the first time (I was too young to appreciate it when it was first broadcast). I've only seen the first three episodes and was wondering about the exact time setting. These episodes are set against the backdrop of a strike. I get the impression that it's earlier than the General Strike of 1926 but can't seem to find too much information on the internet. As my own knowledge of this period is very poor, I'd appreciate any comments that would put this series into context.

[–] benlenn 14 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression_in_the_United_Kingdom

This kind of puts it into context, especially mentioning that there were jobs in the motor car industry, which, if you're watching it on Yesterday like I am, the last episode mentioned that he might go down to the Midlands to work on the cars.

Really enjoying the series and think it's far superior to any of the Beebs current output.

[–] Flossieandflo 14 years ago

You're right that the date doesn't tie in with the General Strike of 1926, in Episode 3 'Woolly Jumpers' there are references to dated events which would place it much earlier. The most telling is that Dolly refers to her husband as having died at Ypres over 4 years ago, which doesn't tie the date down exactly as there were many battles at Ypres, but does mean it could be no later than 1922.

It seems most likely that this strike was the 1921 mining strike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1921) which is refered to here http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/is183/appleby.htm as having gone on for 3 months.

You're right there isn't a great deal of information about this strike on the web, but it was about reduced pay (owing to the end of controlled wages after the war) - which is refered to by characters in the series as being the reason for the strike. Also the strike ends on the employers terms.

Hope this helps.

[–] carl-133 14 years ago

Thanks for that Nachohater.
Those two articles seem to tie-in pretty well with the strike featured in "When The Boat Comes In". The date - 1921 - is roughly when I thought/felt the start of the series was set but I just couldn't quite pin it down. I was about to write the strike off as poetic license.
Thanks again

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

The series starts with Jack Ford's return from Russia where he fought as a mercenary against the Bolsheviks. He returned in 1920.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

I've never seen the first ep but have read the books long ago. IIRC yes Jack came back from Russia in 1920, but I thought that he was witht the British Army not a mercenary. I thought that he stayed with the Army after the war and was transferred to Intelligence duties in Russia after the Revolution.

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

No, I don't think so. The British army was not, as far as I know, involved in the Russian Revolution, even on the sidelines. He was paid by the White Army as an intelligence officer. Later in the series, in series two, I believe, he was blackmailed when he was a union leader over his employment as a mercenary by the Mensheviks; I don't think he could have been blackmailed if he had just been working as a soldier in the British army.

I'm quite happy to be wrong, but as far as I understand, that was the scenario.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

I think that they were involved, whether by being seconded to the White Army or whehter they were there in their own right. but I am fairly sure that Churchill sent troops to support the Whites..
Wasn't he blackmailed over having (allegedly) stolen some jewellery and a watch from a Jewish man? I saw an episode about that the other day, but wasn't able to watch it properly so didn't follow it..

I'd say tho' that left wing union men might be hostile to the idea of his being employed by British intelligence on the side of the White Army.... (agasint the workers)so he might try to hide that when running for union office.

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

I don't believe he could have been blackmailed in that day and age for working for the British army in any capacity; the experience of the great war still overshadowed everything and the soldiery were respected. I will fish the episode out in a day or two and see what the exact plot was, but my recollection is he was a mercenary. I could be wrong.

The blackmail was threatened by a communist whom Jack had beaten in a ballot for union secretary, which carried a salary of, I think, six or seven hundred quid a year. The communist's name was Les Mallow, played by two different actors in the different series. Jack retaliated by theatening to reveal that Mallow received money from his sister who was working as a prostitute in London: he was therefore living off immoral earnings, a serious offene and not a situation conducive to advancement in the labour movement. So Mallow backed down. Jack had assistance from Jessie, who at the time was ill in bed with anaemia.

This is beginning to sound like a real soap opera, which it wasn't.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

Les Mallow?
well have a look if you have the eps. Im going by a vague memory of the books based on the show which I used to have, years ago, but have lost now. My recollection was that Jack had left the army in 1920 after having been seconded to Intelligence where he worked in Murmansk.
I dont think that the army was necessarily respected in places like Gallowshiels after the war, when the heroes had come back to poverty and labour troubles, and a communist like Les Mallow and his friends would not admire soemone who had fought for the Whites, especially in the murky way that Jack seems to have done... and especially as he is also seen as being friendly with the capitalist Horatio Manners.
but I'd be interested to see if hte ep makes it clear. Did you see the first ep when they were shown in January, because I missed it...Maybe in that one, they established what J had been doing? IIRC he has jsust come back to Gallowsheils and is on his own and decides to go ot the cinema. it is a silly film depicting the "HUns" as cowards and he laughs at it, drawing the attention of Jessie Seaton who is there with her family. She upbraids him and that is how he gets to know the Seatons and starts to go out with Jessie... I am guessing that somewhere in that ep he might say something about his war service in Russia?

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

You may well be right about Jack being seconded. I have the dvds of all four series but haven't watched it for over a year. I will check when I have the time. Les Mallow was played by two recognisable actors - John Woodvine, who is always popping up in one role or another still, and Alan Browning, famous for playing Pat Phoenix's husband in Coronation Street then marrying her in real life. It's a bit before my time but I seem to remember it being front-page stuff back in the day.

The point about the soldiery being respected is that many many of the union members whom Jack relied upon for his position and his prospects of being re-elected were ex-servicemen and being in the trenches during WWI was a big plus.

In the first episode Jessie is at the pictures with her brother Tom and his fiancee Mary, who later dies of TB. Jack follows them to the pub and buys them all a drink and she asks him back for supper to continue the argument about the depiction of life in the trenches.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

Oh you make me feel so old! I saw SOME of it in the early 80s - only the third & fourth seasons.... when I guess it was repeated, and then I got the books, as I had an interest in 1930s history.

I agree that his war service was a help, Les M was a CO which told against him a bit, I think, with union men who had been in the War, but the more left wing men might not like the idea of a man who stayed in the Army after the end of the war and wnet ot fight the Communists - when they were communist sympathisers. Plus Jack's known to be a friend of Horry Manners so his loyalty to the working class cause is suspect....

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

I'm sure you're not that old! I watched this series from day one in the mid-seventies and still remembered much of it 30 years later and bought the dvds as a result a couple of years ago. They were expensive as dvds go but worth all the pennies.

I'll let you know in due course whether Jack was a mercenary or on secondment. Probably, as with everything relating to his character, his status was ambiguous. He certinly exploited his position with the locals in Murmansk.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

well Im middle aged..Thanks
. There were quite a few shows that I caught on repeats in the early 80s - one was Secret Army, which I then only managed to "catch" again and see them properly in the last few years when they showed up on UK Gold or History Channels. I only saw about 6 eps of the last year of Secret Army but now have seen it all and have teh DVDs of the 3rd Season...
Seems to me that the BBC and ITV did much better historical series about the War and the 1920s and 30s back then.

I think I read another novel by James Mitchell about a Russian who comes to the UK after the war....so it must be an interest of his.
IIRC Jack says that he doesn't want to remember Russia, becuase it was I presume even worse than the war. Which is problaby why he is reluctnat ot join the Black and Tans.
But he says to Matt that he didn't need to steal the jewels he had kept - they were presents for services rendered from Russian women....
but poor Dolly, he could have used soeme of it to make sure she was better fed during her pregnancy....
I agree he's an ambiguous character that is part of his fascination.
He does not want to overthrow the system because he thinks that, with some help, he can conquer it and make money for himself....but he wants to see the working classes treated fairly...

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

I watched the first episode. I think you are right that Jack was with the British army because he talks about getting his discharge. He also says that it is 1919. There are things which come up in later episodes which led me to think he was being paid as a mercenary. I will probably watch them as time permits over the coming weeks and see what exactly went on.

FYI, the Russian who comes to Britain later in the series is a Russian Jew on his way to Israel and is determined to recover from Jack money which he says Jack stle from his father. Jack does have the money but it proves to be worthless because the regime which issued it had been overthrown by the Bolsheviks.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] 14 years ago

[deleted]

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

Midnite
Have you watched any other eps? IM still watching it but feeling that it is getting a bit long drawn out, Perhaps it should have ended after the Mandrake place being blown up bit? I think that the whole thing of Jack being prosecuted for blowing it up is a bit of a weak story. I am not sure about the law about protected buildings, at the time, but Jack is not a fool. If there were a law against it, he would have found out in time or found some way to get round it BEFORE Roddy etc tried to get him sent to prison (instead of being "caught out" as he appears to have been). Besides would it be a criminal offence?
and with the divorce, IIRC it took 6 months after the divorce was granted for a decree absolute (I may be wrong) and during that time the "injured party" ie Dolly, would have to be seen to be "not committing adultery" herself.... So for one thing, if Jack gets a divorce, it will still be 6 months before D can marry Tom, and so it might not be in time to make the baby legitimate as she says in last ep I saw that she's nearly 3 months pregnant... and also, if Dolly were caught living with Tom, the whole divorce could be thrown out....

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

I have watched some more but only in the first series. It probably seems drawn out compared to modern tv drama series, but is no more drawn out than Brideshead or I Claudius, for instance.

I quite liked the story of the razed building. Jack Ford still had another line of defence even if the prosecution had gone ahead - ie that he had been dynamiting for a new coal seam. He was simply trying to avoid prosecution in the first place. I think he was already covered.

I don't know much about the divorce laws of the twenties. Dolly wanted the divorce before the baby was born, or it would have to be registered with Jack as the father; and they cut it fine. It all seemed reasonable to me when I watched it. There were plenty of problems caused by Tom Seaton wanting to stay overnight with Dolly and being under investigation by the king's proctor for co-habiting. I thought it was a good storyline and never flagged, but I liked the whole series.

It's the fourth series that's disjointed and jumps ahead in time andplace from Gallowshield to London and back again. I still enjoyed it and it evoked the events of the time very well - the rise of the blackshirts, the depression, the Spanish civil war, the rise of socialism and the bright young things. In fact, the problem with the fourth series is that it needs a couple of extra episodes. The only time I thought they overindulged was the extended Roman party, which seemed to go on several minutes longer than necessary.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

don't know much about the divorce laws of the twenties. Dolly wanted the divorce before the baby was born, or it would have to be registered with Jack as the father; and they cut it fine. It all seemed reasonable to me when I watched it. There were plenty of problems caused by Tom Seaton wanting to stay overnight with Dolly and being under investigation by the king's proctor for co-habiting. I thought it was a good storyline and never flagged, but I liked the whole series

Ah I see. I missed a bit but heard Jack say that Doly could say the baby was his, but I thought that was to cover HER over any accusaiton of adultery. So it seems like this series now showing goes on much longer than I realised. I keep thinking "this must be the last ep" and it isn't.

but yes once she'd filed for divorce, she would have to stay away from TOm, until the divorce was made absolute. for 6 months I think. Otherwise the King's Proctor could intervene and the divorce woudl be denied...
Anohter thing that I've found a bit disconcerting was Jessie insisting that Billy pay back his brohter and father for his education. (very glad to see her and Arthur depart!)

Surely she as the Reddest of the family had expected Billy to go into doctoring not to make good money but to work for the poor and speed on the revolution. So how can he do that really if he's paying back his family for years and years....(I also thought that Bill and Tom were putting Billy through med school with the same socialist intentions...) Im not sayigng he shouldn't pay them something esp Tom but I didn't think that they expected it...

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

Dolly was determined that the baby would be born a Seaton and at one point told Jack the child would have his name and he would have to pay for it if the divorce didn't come through in time. She filed for divorce when she was a month or two gone which, as I said, meant cutting it fine.

I was sorry to lose Jessie, but Arthur was a queer, queer fish and almost alien in every aspect of his appearance and manner.

There was, at the time, a vast gap between the income of a professional such as a GP and a worker, such as a miner. The reality is that Billy should have been able to pay Tom and Bill off with ease. He chose not to. You see how well the doctor lives when Billy goes for a job: a mansion of a house, a maid and a chauffeur. The sacrifices entailed in keeping a child in school and away from work were horrendous and it was only reasonable that he should repay the money. It wasn't that much to ask. Although Jessie was a red, she was also a Victorian/Edwardian from a north-east mining family and it would have been instilled in her from birth to pay her own way and pay her debts, and that ethic came before personal politics. I think Bill and Tom were socialists by culture rather than conviction: they soon switched sides once they had a few shillings in the bank, which Jessie and Billy did not.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

I was gald to lose Jessie as well, she was tiresome. with Arthur it was more the actor being not much good...

well my idea from the early parts of the series was that Jessie, TOm and Bill who were paying for Billys education were expecting him to become a doctor who worked for the poor, not someone who took a well paid job. but possibly to create some conflict in the later season they brought in the idea of Billy paying TOm back etc. IMHO Billy couldn't have done both... not at once. Perhaps as an established doctor he could also work in a free clinic, but as a young doctotr, looking for a job, his politics were likely to keep him out of hte plum jobs. I think he should have paid them back but Im not a doctrinaire socialist like Jessie...

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

Dolly was determined that the baby would be born a Seaton and at one point told Jack the child would have his name and he would have to pay for it if the divorce didn't come through in time. She filed for divorce when she was a month or two gone which, as I said, meant cutting it fine.

I guess these eps will be on next week. But in the ep on friday, (James Bolam doesnt appear ) she says that she's nearly 3 months gone, and Jack is away in Scarborough having a fling with a chorus girl and "giving her evidence", so depending on how long it took to file for divorce, and given that I think it woudl be 6 months before her divorce would become absolute, she is really cutting it fine...

There was nothing Jack coudl do about this. It was the law, and he was being a gentleman giving her evidence so that she could divorce him and not be accused of adultery....and I think that she would have to say that the child was Jacks even if Tom gave it his name.. since if she was pregnant by soemone else than obviously SHE was the guilty party, and not Jack....

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

If I remember rightly Jack agreed to a divorce providing Tom agreed to blow up Mandrake Place. You may have missed an episode.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] joyfarrah 14 years ago

Yes Tom tells him D is pregnant, and he agrees to give her a divorce. but then after the Mandrake business is settled Jack tells her hes going away to provide the evidence and he advises her to see a lawyer who can explain about the divorce law and how she and TOm will have to live apart until the divorce is finalised....
In the ep shown on Friday last, Dolly is worried becuase she is "nearly 3 months gone" and J has not returned from his weekend .. but there's nothing J can do to speed up the divorce...

[–] vimhawk 10 years ago

Minor quibble on the history. I can't believe someone as smart as Jack having survived so long during WW1 and even going on to serve in Russia, would finish his service as a Sergeant. By his own admission at one point he even commanded a company when all the officers were killed. Contrary to popular belief, a lot of people of lower class were commissioned during WW1 (even more than in WW2 I believe) because the casualty rates among officers was so high. Someone of Jack's ability would be a stand out case for a field commission. Sure I can see that he might refuse such an offer because of class identification, although surely he might see how it could be used to his advantage later. But even discounting that I would see him finishing the war as a WO2 (Sergeant Major), the senior NCO in a company.

Unfortunately fiction / drama / TV doesn't follow the intracacies of military ranks very closely. I am therefore wondering if Jack remained a Sergeant purely because the author thought it was a rank that people could best associate with?

To continue this argument (and to go off topic if you don't want to read any more), Captain Blackadder was a regular soldier for years before WW1 yet by 1917 he is still a Captain, and Lt George has served since 1914 and is still a Lieutenant. This even though he knows General Melchett well and even knows Haig (commander of largest British Army there has ever been). Blackadder (again like Jack Ford) is clever and manipulative, and is never shown as an incompetent soldier, so he should be a Lt Colnel by 1917... not least because with the higher rank he stood a (very slightly) better chance of determining his own destiny. Not to say many Generals weren't killed in WW1 (which is very rarely mentioned). Again though, probably not the most imporatant thing that the writers were thinking about!

To go even more off topic, in Star Trek the ship's captain always has a Captain's rank. Of course this is not necessary, the person in command of the ship is the Captain, whatever rank he/she is. I suppose the writers thought this would be too confusing for the audience to comprehend.

[–] marktayloruk 13 years ago

British soldiers were sent into Russia-not enough to beat the Reds,unfortunately!What struck me as incongruous-second series,Jessie and Arthur talking about fall of Labour government in 1924.Third series-Matt and Eddie complaining about is taking emergency action against strikers.Anyone thought of fan fiction-dealing with either what Jack did in America or,more interestingly,what happened in Gallowshield without him?The General Strike,for instance.and how did the Depression affect the Seatons' businesses?
And anyone agree that Jack and Sarah would have made quite a couple?

[–] marktayloruk 13 years ago

Another error-there was no American Nazi Party in the 1930s.(in fourth series)

[–] bob-1135 14 years ago

The British Army was involved in the Russian revolution, landing in Northern Russia in I believe 1919. That is why the war medal shows the dates of World War I as 1914-1919 instead of 1914-1918.

[–] MidniteRambler 14 years ago

Yes, you are quite right that Ford was still with the British army when stationed in Murmansk and was discharged in 1919.

Hie thee hither, that I may pour my spirits in thine ear.

[–] morrowmmm 13 years ago

The British Army were up to their armpits in the Russian revolution on the side of the Whites.
I think they landed at Archangel.

[–] morrowmmm 13 years ago

The British Army were up to their armpits in the Russian revolution on the side of the Whites.
I think they landed at Archangel in the east.
In 1920 the British army was withdrawn from the conflict which would tie in with the plot.

[–] tommary1962 7 years ago

The first episode takes place in 1919 and it is stated as such during the program.

[–] flashgordan 10 years ago

Having just watched episode 1 last night (A Land Fit for Heroes & idiots). Jack Ford very cleary states it is 1919 during the episode.

[–] tasscif 10 years ago

Thats right 1919 and the liberal candidate mentions the RFC the problem is that by 1919 it had become the RAF, then again historical accuracy was never the BBCs greatest strength.