Did he do it only because he promised to, or some other reason? Because it seemed to me that he didn't have any choice but to promise to make her a god, because she could have had him killed at any time if he had displeased her. He's shown condemning her at the end of his life as a "wicked, wicked woman" yet he made her a god? Perhaps he didn't believe it was really possible and only did it for reasons of political posturing?
That's a good question. It looks like he is content when he says 'Livia takes her place among the gods...' But, you know, so much is made of the immorality of the gods that even if she is a wicked woman it wouldn't prevent her from being made into a god. Claudius seems to believe that people can be made into gods because of his insistence to Livia that Jove had fortold that Augustus would be a god. Another explaination might be the way he seems reluctant to harm anyone (he excuses all of Caligula's assasins except for Cassius). He shows a lot of compassion for her when she talks about her fear of Hell.
In real life, I think it was good politically to secure the power of the Julio-Claudians.
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On first viewing Livia's actions seem shocking, but you have to remember the horrors she had seen during the civil war.
She saw the need for a single captain at the helm of Rome and tidied away anyone who got in the way of that ambition.
Her mistake was to, in her vanity, pin her hopes on Tiberius her son.
Perhaps she saw this as her surest way of avoiding hell for her actions but she didn't count on out living her son or Tiberius positioning Caligula as his replacement.
She felt guilt for everything she did but like a good politician she was very good at hiding it. (revisit the scene where she waits for her poison to work on her husband for evidence)
Claudius was a compassionate grandson and despite all she did he had made a promise and believed that as a Goddess she'd be reunited with Augustus.
As Emperor one of Claudius's duties was to execute those who stood against him.
Maybe he was also hoping some of that compassion (a sentiment repugnant to most Romans) would be shown to him in the afterlife.
Claudius was quite soft really, he loved his mother despite the fact that she was a nasty, miserable old bag, didn't he? I felt pity for Livia for he made her a goddess.
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Shooting Stars [HMC Site] - http://sophie-lou.tripod.com/
Also, bear in mind that according to Claudius' beliefs Livia has been in Hell for 12 years by this point. Maybe he reckons she's suffered enough.
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"An inglorious peace is better than a dishonourable war" ~ John Adams
i agree, for me, livia isn't the worst villain in the story, because she did what she did to secure rome, trying in her own twisted way to prevent another civil war. choosing tiberius was the only thing that was really vain. everything else was for rome, whereas all of the other evil characters were all about themselves and did what they did for their own good...
shareRome should have remained a Republic.
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It's not like they believed in their own (or anyone else's) divinity...
(No, not even Caligula - *especially* not Caligula.)
BTW, I find it interesting that this particular piece of conversation took place on what was once Livia's birthday.
Coincidence?
(Yes, I thought so. ;))
I thought it was because he felt loyal to her still because she told him the truth when he asked for it. The historian in him held the source in her in high regard. The truth she gave him was probably more than he ever expected. He kind of owed it to her because she gave him the one thing that he really wanted. I haven't read the book but that is my take on it.
shareThat was my take as well. Claudius' feelings towards Livia surely softened when she told him "The Truth" as she was dying. I don't think there were any complex motives or machinations behind him making her a god. They made a deal, and he kept his promise because that's simply the sort of person he was.
shareShe was his grandmother!
Yes, it's true! IMDB has reached Sweden!
Livia had made Claudius promised to make her a goddess when she was dying. I believe, when emperor, he mentions to Herod that he'd fulfilled his old promise to her by doing so. But it does make him seem a dolt, in total denial, given her vicious abuse of him and her murdering his adored brother.
shareWell . . . Gibbon, at least, suggests that Claudius was, in fact, a bit of a "dolt".
shareAlso it was in the Sybil's prophecy.
And you don't cross quills with a Sybil.
Well . . . Gibbon, at least, suggests that Claudius was, in fact, a bit of a "dolt".But then, excellent writer and historian though he was, Gibbon was also a miserable old cuss who didn't like anybody much.
In the book, because the Sybil said it would be so and because he felt sorry for her. Historically, probably so he could say that the Claudians were gods like the Julians.
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Shooting Stars [HMC Site] - http://sophie-lou.tripod.com/
Robert Graves discourses on all th is at one point in Claudius the God...Claudius says that anyone is a god as long as enough people believe in them as one...when they ceased to be worshiped they loose their power...Claudius also distinguishes between his mortal forbears Augustus and Livia and their divine spirits watching over Rome....
It is not our abilities that make us who we are...it is our choices
To Claudius, a promise was a promise. Caligula made the same promise, we're told, but he throws it in Livia's face when she's dying.
Claudius could acknowledge her wickedness, but at the same time he could feel compassion for her. And he had promised, after all. His oath was sacred to him.
As for Gibbon describing him as a dolt, the historical sources strongly suggest that Claudius was not quite the clever character depicted in the series. However, he was far from a dolt; he was a competent, effective administrator who governed reasonably well, especially when you compare him with the other Julio-Claudians: Tiberius, Caligula, Nero...
"You need a good bedside manner with doctors or you will get nowhere." --- William Burroughs
Gordon P. Clarkson
I think it was because he promised and the Writer is underlining that He is a decent person.It must be remembered that Gods in the Classical World were Humans writ large,with all Our virtues and vices but magnified to huge scale.
Livia explained it herself when she was telling Caligula why his secret was safe with Claudius. He was so old fashioned that no matter what Caligula did he would always protect him. His reasoning for making Livia a Goddess is probably along time same lines. He made a promise to his dying Grandmother, and the Claudius that was portrayed in the series would never break a promise like that, even if she was evil.
The only completely consistent people are the dead.
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Because that was his agreement in return for her telling the truth (he was a historian and addicted to the turth). He was a man of his word, and wouldn't have made that kind of bargain and not kept it. (Plus the gods wouldn't look kindly upon that.)
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One also has to acknowledge that the Claudius who made Livia a Goddess in "Fool's Luck" and the Claudius who condemned her at the end of "Poison is Queen" are somewhat different. When Livia was deified, Claudius was blissfully happy with Messalina and willing to forgive his past. Messalina's betrayal left a big wound on him, leaving him disillusioned and embittered. Recalling Livia's evil opened up more wounds, resulting in that mad "You wicked woman! Wicked!" exclamation.
shareAnother thing was acknowledged in both the book and the series was that Livia was the one force that kept Tiberius' excesses in check. Once she was dead he really went off the rails.
The Fabio Principle: Puffy shirts look best on men who look even better without them.
If you are interested in Augustus, there is a great book called "Augustus: The Life of Rome's First Emperor" ... by Anthony Everitt that is very good. I think Augustus and Livia were more of a team than is indicated. But honestly, in my opinion, how could we ever understand what is in the mind of these ancient people. I think they were much like us, but their world view and things they believed could be completely in another universe from modern people. The average Roman citizen could kill people at any time, have slaves, they had a completely different world view than the people today.
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