My dad loved this series, so growing up i watched it alot. I was amazed then as i am now on how great a job they did making them older. The progression of all these 20 yo actors into middle age and elderly (for those that lived long enough) just blows me away. I watch movies and shows now and dont understand how a show made in 1976 flat out embarrasses them when it comes to makeup.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Well, I thought the make-up worked well on the prime characters (especially Livia and Tiberius), but not on several minor ones (Augustus' friend in 'Poison is Queen', Cassius). It appears those actors lacked the latex used by the prime five (Claudius, Augustus, Livia, Tiberius, and Antonia).
I've noticed that Derek Jacobi's old age makeup rather changed throughout the series, looking quite wild in 'A Touch of Murder' and looking restrained in 'Old King Log.'
Yes, you are right. Old Claudius looked different in some episodes ( I think, he had at least three different make-ups)but never mind, that`s a minor flaw in this great series. Did you notice - Brian Blessed looked older in "What Shall We Do About Claudius" than in "Poison is Queen"? or maybe I`m wrong. One of my rare complaints about casting - why is Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa so old in "A Touch of Murder"? I mean, the story in this episode takes place in 24-23 BC, Agrippa should have been 40 years old ( same age as Augustus) and actor who played him ( John Paul) looks like he has at least 60 or even more. Younger actors were not available at the time? Same for Agripinilla, she was 33 when we first see her
( 49 AD ) but Barbara Young looks much older ( or maybe I was too hard? ).
I thought Brian Blessed looked the same in both episodes.
I think Agrippa's older portrayal was meant to display the maturity vs. youth conflict between him and Marcellus (as portrayed in the Actium banquet). Although Brian Blessed was about 40 at the time (like Augustus), IMO, he actually looks more like Christopher Guard-Marcellus' older brother. I suppose casting a younger actor would have hurt the believability of the conflict.
At any rate, CLEOPATRA (1963) did the same thing in casting a much older Agrippa.
Barbara Young was screenwriter Jack Pulman's wife. That's how she got her parts in Pulman's adaptations of WAR AND PEACE and CRIME AND PUNISHMENT (Herbert Wise cast several of his wives as Agrippina and Domitia). Anyway, Young was about 39-40 in 1976, so the age difference isn't THAT far off.
Yes, I remember that Barbara Young played countess Ana Pavlovna Sherer in "War and Peace" but I didn`t know that she was Pullman`s wife ( He also wrote the script for "War and Peace"). Fiona Walker and Moira Redmond - wives of Herbert Wise? Too much nepotism but it`s OK, ladies were very good in their roles.
Thank you for responding. You are the best expert for "I Claudius" on IMDb. I also love historical drama ( BBC and Granada )from 1970s. I have DVD collection ( The Forsyte Saga, The Caesars, Henry VIII and Six Wives, Elizabeth R, War and Peace, Fall of Eagles, Edward the Seventh and of course I Claudius). My favorites are I Claudius, The Forsyte Saga and Elizabeth R but I also like the other five. What do you think and how would you rank them and why? and which performances by actor/ actress you consider the best? I know this is not right topic for that but I`m interested to hear your opinions. Thanks in advance for your time.
Sorry for the late reply, I had to gather my thoughts.
I, C is my personal favorite, with ELIZABETH R (Glenda Jackson IS Elizabeth; loved her soliloquy about Mary's death; I even got a book of the script), EDWARD THE SEVENTH (Annette Crosbie warts-and-all portrayal of Queen Victoria), and FALL OF EAGLES (I liked the Nicholas II segments best; they really skipped a lot in the Franz Joseph part) belong in my list. Also included in that list is UPSTAIRS DOWNSTAIRS, NAPOLEON AND LOVE (with Ian Holm "I will not have an old, barren WHORE as my wife!") and J.M. BARRIE AND THE LOST BOYS (again, with Ian Holm. FINDING NEVERLAND was a fairy tale).
Any British adaptations of Literature? COUNT DRACULA (THE truest adaptation of Bram Stoker's novel, with Louis Jourdan, Judi Bowker, John Shepherd and Frank Finlay among the acting highlights), JANE EYRE (Timothy Dalton and Zelah Clarke), and the BBC Christmas show THE BOX OF DELIGHTS. I also liked 1980 A TALE OF TWO CITIES (with Judy Parfit's sympathetic Madame DeFarge), though the 1935 MGM Ronald Colman version is still my favorite. Tell one the truth, I'm not too big on BRIDESHEAD REVISITED (BUT that is MY personal issue, and unlike some people I'm not going to make a deal about it) though I liked THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN.
Shows I want to see: Dennis Potter's controversial Christ teleplay SON OF MAN, The Plantagenet drama THE DEVIL'S CROWN (I got the paperback novelization), LES MISERABLES with Frank Finlay (I saw footage of it on a GREAT BOOKS documentary) and THE SPREAD OF THE EAGLE (a combination of Shakespeare's Roman plays, with Beth Morris, Kieth Michell, and Peter Cushing).
Last summer I watched FALL OF EAGLES and EDWARD THE SEVENTH simultaneously in chronological order ( together with VICTORIA AND ALBERT ( 2001. ), HER MAJESTY MRS BROWN ( 1997. ), MAYERLING ( 1968. ), NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDRA ( 1971. ) and THE LOST PRINCE ( 2003. )). It was amazing experience. I was completely drawn into the world of four great european royal houses from 1837 to 1918.
FALL OF EAGLES is excellent but my only complaint is that I have feeling that some episodes are missing ( 2-3 episodes more about Habsburgs), EDWARD THE SEVENTH is also TV masterpiece ( acting and costumes are great - from times of Charles Dickens, through VIctorian and Edwardian Age - to the eve of Great War; Annette Crosbie - perfect Queen Victoria ( that scene after Gledston`s funeral is little over the top but it`s OK; character of Edward is shown a little too much in a positive light ( in episodes 2,3,4,5,10,11,12,13 it`s OK but in episodes 6,7,8,9 his darker side - notorious womanizer and pleasure life - a missed oportunity from authors).
Glenda Jackson is perfect choice for Queen Bess , I enjoyed her in each episode and supporting cast is also very good. Same for Keith Michell ( he is the ONE and ONLY Henry VIII) - my favorite episode is one with Jane Seymour ( Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn are the two most tragic characters in the series but somehow I find episode with Jane saddest of all ( her confession to her beloved brother shortly before she died was very moving ).
I CLAUDIUS is perhaps the best TV series of all time ,
Script by Jack Pulman is first class but why not at least 2-3 episodes more? ( Parts that I think are missing - rebellion of Rhine legions after death of Augustus , relationship between Tiberius and Germanicus and death of Germanicus in Syria , last years of Tiberius on Capri and one more episode about Claudius reign ( you know that in the book the whole chapter is devoted to last years of Tiberius on Capri . His last conversation with Nerva was very touching - if you remember actor who played Nerva in THE CAESARS is the same actor who played Polio in I CLAUDIUS ). But the more I think - 13 episodes and Jack Pulman`s script are perfection in any sence.
Thanks for your response and thoughts. Next what I would like to see is THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN and THE SHADOW OF THE TOWER ( 1972; story about king Henry VII and his wife Elizabeth of York - some sort of prequel to both HENRY VIII AND HIS WIVES and ELIZABETH R. Have you seen this? Is it worth watching?).
FALL OF EAGLES is excellent but my only complaint is that I have feeling that some episodes are missing ( 2-3 episodes more about Habsburgs), EDWARD THE SEVENTH is also TV masterpiece ( acting and costumes are great - from times of Charles Dickens, through VIctorian and Edwardian Age - to the eve of Great War; Annette Crosbie - perfect Queen Victoria ( that scene after Gledston`s funeral is little over the top but it`s OK; character of Edward is shown a little too much in a positive light ( in episodes 2,3,4,5,10,11,12,13 it`s OK but in episodes 6,7,8,9 his darker side - notorious womanizer and pleasure life - a missed oportunity from authors).
I first watched MAYERLING and then REQUIEM FOR A CROWN PRINCE. Omar Sharif and
Catherine Deneuve look nothing like real Rudolph and Marie Vetsera but I liked movie. I prefer darker versions of Mayerling events (such in REQUIEM ), actually Rudolph may have been killed by German agents and then all placed to look like suicide but who knows? Maybe it was a really tragic love story.
Yes, you are right that Germanicus was probably too boring character for Jack Pulman lol . In THE CAESARS Eric Flynn played Germanicus like some sort of Roman version of Lawrence of Arabia ( charismatic military leader but naive politician ; I guess that he inherited political naivety from his mother but Antonia later redeemed herself in REIGN OF TERROR ). In the world of Livia, Tiberius, Sejanus, Caligula and even Agrippina and less important but ambitious characters ( Piso and Plancina ) Germanicus actually never had a chance to survive to old age. Same for Drusus ( his appearance is also very short but his character is well-developed; conversation between him and Tiberius in FAMILY AFFAIRS is one of the highlights of the series).
Episode A GOD IN COLCHESTER in two parts ( I - Invasion of Britain and Herod`s betrayal , II - Messalina ) would actually worked but I really love this episode as it is.
No, I never had the opportunity to watch LADY CHURCHILL and SHOULDER TO SHOULDER ( I just saw on IMDb - its about suffragettes and their leader Emmeline Punkhurst; cast - Shian Phillips , Patricia Quinn ( Livilla) and Angela Down ( Maria Bolkonskya from WAR AND PEACE ). Is it good?
I've seen JENNIE (Like CLAUDIUS, WINSTON CHURCHILL- THE WILDERNESS YEARS and NAPOLEON AND LOVE, I saw it on the History Channel back in '96). It's good, although it tends to whitewash Jennie and Randolph's poor parenting of Winston (As according to William Manchester's THE LAST LION- WINSTON SPENCER CHURCHILL- VOL. 1 1874-1932). SHOULDER TO SHOULDER is another Holy Grail British show I wish to see one day.
share Hi angmc,
A few months ago we had an interesting conversation about old BBC historical dramas on this topic. You recommended "The Shadow of the Tower" to me and right now I watch this excellent series ( I'm currently on the episode 6 ). Love James Maxwell's very cool performance as Henry VII; episodes 3-4 were most interesting ( about Lambert Simnel as fake Earl of Warwick ). Yes, this is magnificent prequel to "Henry VIII and Six Wives" and "Elizabeth R".
Tudors got best treatment in many historical movies and TV dramas; on the other hand, Stuarts little less and Hanoverians much less. Did you ever saw perhaps "The First Churchills" ( 1969 ) ? It's about Duke of Marlborough ( John Neville )and his wife Sarah ( Susan Hampshire ) and their relationships with many monarchs from that period - Charles II ( James Williers ), James II, Mary II and William III, Queen Anne ( Margaret Tyzack ) and George I. I only know that this is one of the first BBc TV series in colour. Love 1685 - 1714 period in British history and this would be very enjoyable to see.
Also, what with "Prince Regent" ( 1979 ; about George IV ). I know only cast - Peter Eagan, Susannah York, Nigel Davenport, Frances White, Cherie Lunghi ). This was never released on VHS and DVD ( why ? I really don't know, it's a mistery). Did you know something ?
I've not heard of PRINCE REGENT, but thanks for the info. Sounds interesting.
Yes, I've seen about 75% of THE FIRST CHURCHILLS. Haven't seen a lot of the second half post-William-exile, except for Battle of Blenheim and the ending episode. Still, my view of it is probably better than Alastair Cooke's (he thinks of it as MASTERPIECE THEATRE'S worst entry, wondering why its broadcast didn't strangle the beginning PBS show in its cradle). I think BBC's first color foray was 1967s VANITY FAIR with Susan Hampshire (that was released on VHS but not on DVD).
Dennis Potter's SON OF MAN is on Youtube.
Have you noticed a lack of vintage BBC serials on DVD release? The only recent ones are re-releases like LILLIE and I, CLAUDIUS.
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but not on several minor ones (Augustus' friend in 'Poison is Queen', Cassius)
Really? And this is the only episode where Winifred doesn't appear (although Antonia is mentioned several times as being nearby).
shareIf you try to watch I CLAUDIUS and THE CAESARS simultaneously (in chronological order, of course) you'll notice a very long absence of Antonia/Winifred/Queen Anne :
- Poison is Queen (13-14 AD)
- Augustus (13-14 AD)
- Germanicus (14 AD)
- Tiberius (17-20 AD)
- Some Justice (19-20 AD) (Antonia is finally here !)
Speaking of makeup in general here, I'm still waiting BBC to release THE DEVIL'S CROWN and PRINCE REGENT on DVD which is highly unlikely, I know (I had some hope for 25 years anniversaries in 2013 and 2014 but of course - nothing. At least CROWN is available on YouTube). Someone who has seen PRINCE REGENT when was originally aired on TV said on don't-remember-which-forum that Peter Egan had so heavy makeup in the last episode that only his eyes and hands were real (as you know, PRINCE REGENT won BAFTA for best makeup so it would be really interesting to see Peter Egan's "ageing" - probably something like Keith Michell's "metamorphosis" in SIX WIVES. And also there is Frances White in the role of Queen Charlotte - one of the cases of perfect casting where the actor/actress bears an unbelievable close resemblance of real historical person ( Bernard Hepton as Thomas Cranmer and Alec Guinness as Charles I are good examples also).
Rooney Fassbender and Joaquin Blanchett
Prince Regent is due to be released in October: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prince-Regent-DVD/dp/B01CYF98KG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459938255&sr=8-1&keywords=prince+regent+1979.
shareFinally ! 👍
Hopefully, The Devil's Crown is the next.
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
PRINCE REGENT, BORUTO THE MOVIE, and Abel Gance's NAPOLEON on DVD in the fall. Great things.
sharePrince Regent will be fine companion to Napoleon and Love (1974). Just like Edward the Seventh is to Fall of Eagles.
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
Shoulder to Shoulder will be released in March.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shoulder-to-DVD/dp/B01J69KWFI/ref=pd_sim_74_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=NCMR4SVTQT51E9QSNPW9
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
Oh goody! Known about this serial since reading a MASTERPIECE THEATRE book in 1996. Livia and Livilla as mother and daughter, with Princess Maria Bolkonsky.
shareAt least The Devil's Crown is available to watch on Youtube.
shareI very much like Fall of Eagles and Edward the Seventh, but I don't think that Napoleon and Love is in the same league at all. Have you seen I Remember Nelson? That's really good!
shareI must admit - I haven't seen Napoleon and Love yet (only some fragments on YouTube). I'm waiting on Prince Regent so I'll watch them together. It's like Plutarch's "Parallel Lives" - two rulers whose mighty countries are at war with each other. One of them is one of the greatest historical figures ever and the other one is in most recent poll voted for the most useless monarch in the country's history. And still - the former lost the war and the latter was a winner (although not because of his abilities, that's for sure). Both series are focused on these two men and women around them.
Can I ask what especially you don't like about Napoleon and Love ?
Thanks for recommendation of I Remember Nelson ?. Didn't know this mini-series even existed till now. Love the cast choices for Nelson and Lady Hamilton !
Any good series about Lord Wellington and Byron ? Or Pitt - Fox political rivalry ?
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
Napoleon and Love is watchable, but it is a bit camp and overblown - so is I, Claudius, of course, but that has more elegance, intelligence, and humour, as well as more substance, i.e., much better acting, writing, and direction. N&L is filled with good actors, but most of them are just having fun and don't seem to be trying very hard. The characterisations of the two key players - Napoleon and Josephine - wouldn't look out of place in a pantomime: all the silliness of John Hurt's Caligula without any of the magic or style. Still, it is worth a look, especially as I've yet to find an alternative version. I did see Napoleon and Josephine: A Love Story, but I don't remember much about it. If you like Ian Holm, somebody mentioned The Lost Boys, which really is a gem.
I Remember Nelson is everything that N&L isn't, so you should definitely watch it. Geraldine James, a favourite actress of mine, is a curious choice for Lady Hamilton, but she does a decent job. Kenneth Colley, Tim Pigott-Smith, and Anna Massey are all very good indeed.
I've seen most of the productions listed above, and some I like better than others. Jennie: Lady Randolph Churchill, for instance, is okay, but not memorable for me. Winston Churchill: The Wilderness Years is much better.
Shoulder to Shoulder is wonderful! Such a shame that it has not been released. Sensitive scripts which combine humour with moving and sometimes harrowing drama, and really bring the characters to life; well-researched history; good production values; and excellent ensemble acting. Siân Phillips is outstanding and so is Angela Down.
Edward the Seventh does whitewash its eponymous character, but it is a joy to watch and generally good history. Annette Crosbie and Helen Ryan are my favourites out of an exceptional cast. Francesca Annis is splendid in Lillie, which I think has a much more interesting portrayal of Edward VII.
No performance beats Glenda Jackson's in Elizabeth R!
I hope that you watched (and liked) The Jewel in the Crown. It's probably my number one favourite, and I adore the books from which it was adapted.
I see. I have a feel that Prince Regent will be also campy (in a positive, fun way).
I love Edward the Seventh and Fall of Eagles but yes, Edward's portrayal in Lillie was more historically accurate. One of the minor problems I have with both series are stereotypical, almost caricatural potrayals of foreign rulers. For example - Kaiser Wilhelm I was serious, XIX century gentleman, certainly not a strong or inteligent personality like Bismarck but what was with all that crying in The English Princess ? Same for his brothers - I know they were militaristic types but are really that vulgar and stupid ? Christopher Neame in Edward is high camp, almost like villain in James Bond parody. It's highly entertaining but I think they gone a little too far.
Fall of Eagles and Edward the Seventh are generally very good and accurate history but they are specially from the British 1970s point of view. Imagine if someone in Germany or Russia in that time had the same idea and created series about Romanovs, Hohenzollerns and Habsburgs ? I bet it would be full of British "villains" with all stereotypes.
My personal ranking of Elizabeth actresses
1. Glenda Jackson (definitive "Gloriana". All-time great performance)
2. Cate Blanchett (all time great performance in the first movie, a little weaker, more campy in the 2nd. Of course, both films have very little in common with historical accuracy but they work perfectly if you forget about history and watch them as 1) dark, psychological, religious-political XVI century thriller and 2) nice homage to romanticized historical Hollywood dramas from 1930s. It will be very interesting to see what approach exactly will they choose for the third film, somewhere in the future)
3. Helen Mirren (she is excellent but still, slightly under Jackson and Blanchett)
4. Judi Dench (she is one of my favorite actresses and she is amazing in that 5 minutes; she just doesn't physically resemble Elizabeth very much. Which is OK since it's just a comedy)
5. Ann-Marie Duff (Just no. Totally miscast)
Haven't seen old movies with Bette Davis.
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
Christopher Neame in Edward is high camp, almost like villain in James Bond parody. It's highly entertaining but I think they gone a little too far.
DVD cover for Prince Regent:
http://www.simplymedia.tv/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Prince-Regent-Temp-224x325.jpg
Fassbender - Mara - Blanchett
the makeup is particularly good for a BBC production of that time. while its far from perfect (the edges of the appliances are often very apparent),its still quite impressive when you consider that, judging from other productions from the same era, British makeup artists didn't have access to the same materials and techniques that Hollywood regularly used.
share
I mean just the makeup for Tiberius from younger, middle aged and elderly is amazing.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
- The make-up, hair, costumes and scenery are very basic, but I think the production gets away with that because it's so overtly theatrical ... and because it's one of the best screen dramas I've ever seen. I wish more films and television would look at this and learn that it's writing and performances which create great drama, not spending a million dollars per episode.
- Great board, with some very interesting and informative comments by unusually erudite posters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3shBXlqsw