MovieChat Forums > Dog Day Afternoon (1975) Discussion > Did Sonny sell out Sal?

Did Sonny sell out Sal?

posted 12 years ago by GuyOnTheLeft
40 replies | jump to latest

A Wikipedia article states that the film "intimates" that he did, and that when the movie was shown in prison it resulted in a number of attempts to kill the "real Sonny". I commented to my wife that I didn't think this was intimated at all, and she disagreed and said she agreed that it was!

So, okay, I understand the rationale: it's because Sonny didn't tell Sal what the FBI dude told him outside about how "we'll take care of Sal". But Sonny did scream at him "You think I'd sell him out?!?" I figured Sonny didn't tell Sal what the FBI dude said because he knew Sal was volatile and would go nuts and blow the whole thing. My counterevidence to the "sell out" theory is that Sonny wouldn't have gotten all suspicious about the driver with the Afro, wouldn't have checked out the van so thoroughly, had he felt he was just going along with a setup. Also, when he got to the airport, he really seemed to be genuinely asking about food on the plane etc., not getting tense as he awaited the other shoe dropping.

Thoughts?

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 12 years ago

Interesting, thanks for the reply!

[–] novastar_6 12 years ago

What novel? I have never found any book relating to this movie.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] jwalsh67 12 years ago

Thanks for the interesting post, Pablo! I'm just curious how you interpret the line about there being food on the plane as being part of a sell-out. Like you, I have never seen anything significant in that line.

He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.

[–] Sense1ess1eader 12 years ago

There's another moment that I thought made it clear in the movie that he did sell him out. Remember when Sonny goes outside to talk to his mother? Well, after he's done talking, he goes back inside and closes the door. As he's locking the door, he looks out through the glass at the FBI agent. It cuts to him and he holds up ten fingers and then mouths "ten minutes." Sonny then nods. This nod clearly tells me that he's agreeing to what the FBI agent said earlier.

You could interpret this as the agent just telling him that it's ten minutes until the car arrives to take everyone to the airport and Sonny nodding in agreement. But then why wouldn't Sonny talk to the agent to make sure that the agent's plan wasn't still in place? His friend's life is at stake. The agent couldn't have been more direct earlier.

[–] GuyOnTheLeft 12 years ago

I see your point: agreeing to it implicitly. But that still leaves me with questions:

Why scream at the agent earlier that he would never sell out his friend? It wasn't "for show" for Sal's benefit, because Sal didn't hear the conversation and then when he asked Sonny what the shouting was about, Sonny lied about it, saying it was something innocent.

I also thought that throughout the movement to the airport, from checking out the car and moving with the hostages, to the arrival itself, Pacino played Sonny as someone who really thought they were going to get away. And the agent did grab his shotgun at the end.

[–] novastar_6 12 years ago

Exactly, Sonny didn't sell anybody out, they tried to get him to but he was too loyal.

[–] PussyCrusher_Principal 12 years ago

I read the book 25 years ago - I want to read it again soon. a fascinating look into what was then a very misunderstood segment of the population, and a really interesting read when I was a high school senior - and I'm sure those of you who've read it in this thread remember more than I do so I hope I don't write any inaccuracies.

In the book, the Sal character (not sure if his name is Sal in the book) really was just a kid that Sonny ("Littlejoe" in the book, if I remember correctly? I'll just call him "Book Sonny" or "Movie Sonny") had taken under his wing. He was most definitely gay (I'm not sure if Sal in the movie is gay. I know he denies it when he finds out the public is chanting the F-word and is upset they will think he's gay, but the book Sal also tries to say he's just "trying out" the gay lifestyle. But he performs sexual acts on truckers, so that's likely just a case of kidding himself. But I do not know if movie Sal is really straight or not, point being that there are certainly differences between book and movie. Another is that John Cazale looks way older than 18, so I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be in the film.). Anyway, my point is that the previous post that quoted Sonny as saying he'd never sell out an 18 year old kid sounds consistent with my remembrances of reading it. I am watching it right now...I was going to say I don't remember movie Sonny selling out movie Sal either, but now that I think about it I'm not so sure I remembered correctly. I do remember thinking that Sonny surely didn't want to get Sal killed, at the very least. I think I'll post again when the film's over if I see it differently this time around.

"The things I do for love..." Jaime Lannister

[–] poli373 11 years ago

Why would Sonny set up Sal? He could have easily let out the hostages and surrendered without Sal getting killed, its not like he got off with a light sentence. I believe they killed Sal because sonny made him to be the crazy one, dont do this because Sal will shoot the hostages, or do this and Sal will kill everyone etc. The cops saw him as volatile while on the other hand they got to know Sonny, his motives and sensed he didn't want to kill anyone.

I dont see Sonny setting him up because he gained little from it.

[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

I still don't think that Sonny intended to set up Sal. But I can see the devils advocate with your position being that Sonny didn't have the chance to just free the hostages because Sal would have freaked out and started shooting or something like that.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

[–] SALTER-pt 12 years ago

If that was intimated, then I must have missed it.

current CO2 level is the lowest in the history of life on this planet - rjfme

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

Huh, it has been awhile but I remember Sonny's last reaction being to scream that he was outraged by the very idea.

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

[–] linop90 11 years ago

sal wanted to die anyway.
death over prison.

Eat the Neocons.

[–] Princess_Ashmi 11 years ago

Yes i believe he did in the end.

Ashmi any question

[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

And it just wasn't shown on screen? So what was all that about refusing the first driver?

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

[–] Princess_Ashmi 11 years ago

I dunno dude, I'm a yes/no kinda person. Straight to the point without having to go into detail lol

Ashmi any question

[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

Lol ok :)

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See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

[–] franzkabuki 11 years ago

"Straight to the point without having to go into detail lol".

What point? As long as you don´t have the support of evidence or sound reasoning, you do not have a point. And it´s not funny, either.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] Princess_Ashmi 11 years ago

wow are you always this *beep* serious? Chill out grandad.

and the other OP found it funny so yeah, jog on.

Ashmi any question

[–] techbox14 11 years ago

I believe he did.

I would like to get an LE's opinion, but failing that, here's my take.

He didn't tell Sal what the FBI man said.

In high stakes situations like this you probably can't expect the perp to give you an instant "yeah ok, well, I'll sell out my friend, and I'll go to jail."

So you play the odds with the guy.

You give him an "out," something to keep in his pocket.

You wear him down.

They would be able to tell he didn't tell Sal, because there would have been some indication of this (some commotion, Sal wants reassurance or he's gonna kill a hostage, etc).

Basically, by not telling Sal, and keeping the option under his vest, he sold him out.

[–] spookyrat1 11 years ago

I think Sonny inadvertently sold out Sal, when he intimated early on that Sal was...the weapon...the more dangerous of the pair. He suggested Sal was the one more likely to start shooting if provoked. Granted he was likely just playing to the cameras and his audience for all that it was worth, but it likely registered with the authorities, especially when Sonny was so often visible with just a white handkerchief.

[–] Darthmauler_megaa 10 years ago

I feel like it's pretty much implied at the very end, the way Sonny keeps staring at Sal's dead body as he's being taken away.

"Can it be that they are mad themselves who call me mad?"

[–] chewtoy45 8 years ago

You could interpret this as the agent just telling him that it's ten minutes until the car arrives to take everyone to the airport and Sonny nodding in agreement.

This is the way I've interpreted since I saw it 5 times the week it first came out in 1975, and ever since. No way did he sell out Sal.

I think I'll have a large order of prognosis negative.

[–] mplo (2305) 10 months ago

That's correct. Sal did get shot and killed in the end.

[–] Chaarles 10 years ago

I agree with you entirely , YourOneBeauty. I think your points are valid, and would add - why bother pushing for the plane at all when (if Sonny believed he had an 'out' with the feds) he could have sat pretty and waited for the FBI to do their swift, intricate, precise work.

Sonny was never a cool manipulator, but always a man dancing a tango on the edge of personal destruction. He could give a flying fugue for the FBI man's shifty deals! He was going to get them out of there. Everything that drove Sonny was founded on personal relationship; he would sooner shoot himself then give up Sal.

The FBI man could believe what he liked. He always would. Sonny recognised that, and understood that sly, pragmatic game for what it was - the work of the enemy. If ever there was 'an enemy' that Sonny confronted in life, it was precisely that sh*tty little sell-out move. He didn't play that game. He wanted the f~@*ing plane.

That's my reading. A complex, subtle, powerful movie. And a tragic last scene where Sonny takes in the damage he has done and despairs at how he could have come to such an appalling end. How does love arrive at that?

[–] Mr_Argumentative 9 years ago

There's also a novel out there. Fans of the movie should really try to get a copy of it. Anyway, in the novel it is strongly implied Sonny--they call him "Little Joe" in the book--sells out Sal.

The book, however, is quite a bit different than the movie. Sonny and Sal are WAY less likeable in the book.

I'm not sure if Sonny sells out Sal in the movie. If he does, it's a lot more subtle than it is in the book.

I'll have to re-watch the movie again. Soon.

[–] DanaShelbyChancey 9 years ago

I just watched the movie this afternoon, having never seen it straight through before. At my age!

I think Sonny unknowingly sold Sal out. He may have nodded at the right times, but I don't think he was sharp enough, the way the movie depicts him, to have agreed to the cops shorthand and signals.

Movie Sonny didn't know enough not to start a fire during the heist. Even in 1972, there were smoke alarms.

[–] techbox14 9 years ago

Bottom line....he lied to Sal about what the FBI man said.

His reasons for doing so are irrelevant.

[–] coorsbeer 9 years ago

I say no sell out.

He could have had Sal put down when he let the FBI guy come into the bank.

There was no hint in the movie that Sonny was intelligent enough to set up Sal. He screwed up from the minute they walked in the bank.

[–] ALMAmatters 9 years ago

coorsbeer, great observation. I totally agree.

[–] mdonln 9 years ago

GuyOnTheLeft says > I figured Sonny didn't tell Sal what the FBI dude said because he knew Sal was volatile and would go nuts and blow the whole thing.

I agree with your assessment but I also think Sonny didn't have it in him to sell Sal out or anyone else. He was just naive enough to think he had the situation under control. Even dumb punks like him should have known it was a ploy.

By the time the FBI agent made that statement, they had a good sense of who Sonny was. He was already on edge. This bit of news would have made him more suspicious than he already was. That's how they were able to pull the bait and switch with the drivers.

Thinking he had figured out what they were up to, he got a little over confident. He thought things were going his way so he felt a false sense of security. Also, I feel, the FBI guy was gauging Sonny's reaction. The fact he reacted the way he did showed he was protective of Sal. They knew taking Sal out would stun and neutralize Sonny. That one shot shut them both down at once.

They didn't know nearly as much about Sal; he stayed in the background; an unknown entity. If Sonny was taken out, how would Sal react? He seemed quiet but he could have been the more volatile and dangerous of the two. They also had not established a relationship with Sal. If Sonny was out of the picture and Sal somehow regained the upper hand, they'd have to deal with him. He did not seem to be the type to negotiate especially if Sonny was killed.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

[–] GuyOnTheLeft 9 years ago

Good points.

[–] mplo (2305) 10 months ago

Sal, I think, did seem the most dangerous and volatile of the two. He remained silent, with an evil expression on his face, and he was much more willing and eager to kill the hostages. I think that Sonny acted as he did in order to keep that from happening.

[–] mechajutaro 9 years ago

Did Sonny sell out Sal?

Dunno, though now that you mention this, I can't help but suspect that this aspect of the story may have been left deliberately obscure by Lumet&Co. In any event, it would behoove dude to call Saul if such a betrayal has transpired....