MovieChat Forums > Thunderbolt and Lightfoot (1974) Discussion > Why Should I be Rooting for Criminals?

Why Should I be Rooting for Criminals?


Discuss.

reply

2 arguments made in the film


From the gas station attendance (Dub Taylor) when they steal the car...
In this business, you're always one step away from bankruptcy. Funny money, credit, speculation... Somewhere in this country's a little ol' lady with $79.25. The five cents is a buffalo nickel... If she cashes in her investment, whole thing'll collapse. General Motors, the Pentagon, the two-party system and the whole shebang... We're all running downhill. Gotta' keep running faster or we'll fall down.

and Lightfoot's last words...
You know... you know somethin'? I don't think of us as criminals, you know? I feel we accomplished something. A good job. I feel proud of myself, man. I feel like a hero.

reply

It was made as Vietnam was winding down, although it is mentioned that Red and Bolt are Korean War veterans. The Dub Taylor scene is classic cynicism as the previous poster showed. The kid is obviously a hippie, probably protested, or refused to be drafted. It was if two generations were colliding.

Its not so much about rooting for criminals, but rather look what happens to you. 3 of the four in the gang are dead by the end. And another one gets mowed down by Foot in the beginning.

reply

In a way, your "question" validates the first 2/3's of character and relationship development between Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. The viewer gets to know and like them (especially Lightfoot). The free spirit drifter and the war hero paired together in the early 1970's is an odd couple for sure. This film is fantastic in depicting how a couple of loners, from different backgrounds and eras can become the best of friends when fate forces them to stay together.

Had Ciminio dove straight into the heist and made it the complete basis for the film, you'd have zero reason to "root" for them. However, (under the guise that this is JUST A MOVIE) there is nothing wrong with the suspension of one's moral code and thus "rooting" for two characters who in reality are a couple of crooks. In watching this film, I find it hard not to root for Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, and easy to root against Red and Goody. And the fact Thunderbolt and Lightfoot never truly mean to harm anyone physically (given the chance to kill Red at Wolf Creek, Thunderbolt refuses and tosses him the guns). In fact, the only death caused by the two was Dunlop's and that was an accident while HE was trying to kill Thunderbolt. Neither Thunderbolt or Lightfoot fires a gun (other than the cannon in the vault) anywhere in this film. (again, I'm not condoning their criminal actions) Just illustrating how "soft" these two criminals truly are, and that is by design. You have a film based on a heist where all the main characters are crooks, how do you create a protagonist? With good character & relationship development (CHECK) Some light humor (CHECK) make them incredibly soft for criminals (CHECK) and have an antagonist who is easy to hate (CHECK)

Simply, it's easy to root for Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.

"I don't want your watch, man. I want your friendship!" - Lightfoot

reply

Come on, we'd ALL do it if we were 100% sure we'd get away with it. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

There was no murder involved. Just stealing money that is insured.

reply

In the 1996 TV movie Gotti the crowd outside the courthouse goes wild after the main character is acquitted. The Teflon Don turns to his associates and says, "You know why they're cheering for me? Because I'm beating the system that's screwing them down every day."
It should also be noted, however, that in addition to most of the gang in Thunderbolt and Lightfoot ending up badly, along the way they end up hurting other working people, such as the security guard they club.

reply

What's your definition of a criminal?

Btw, the people who scream loudest for law and order usually end up being the most dangerous criminals of all...

reply

Threads like this are always totally useless. You bring up a topic and then just say "discuss?" It's your topic. You started it. How about you start off the discussion?

reply

I agree. What's the OP, our English Lit professor?

reply

Watch the full version of Metropolis by Fritz Lang.

You will then have your answer.

reply

They're not even likable criminals.

reply

Much like the 21st Century has its Marvel heroes, the late 60s and early seventies had its criminal heroes.

I suppose it started with Bonnie and Clyde(1967), and then continued on to the 1969 Westerns The Wild Bunch and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid(the biggest hit OF 1969.) Bank robbers ("We rob bainks," said Bonnie). Train robbers.

In the early 70's, we had Steve McQueen as the leader of a group of bank robbers in The Getaway(1972) and likeable Walter Matthau(1973) as the leader of a group of bank robbers in Charley Varrick. Both gangs hassled bank employees and customers, Matthau's killed and wounded cops.

Interestingly, Charley Varrick was the next film for director Don Siegel after his "law and order" movie Dirty Harry(which begins with a shot of the wall with the names of officers killed in duty in San Francisco.) Eastwood did Thunderbolt and Lightfoot after Dirty Harry 2("Magnum Force.") Its somewhat interesting that both director Siegel and star Eastwood elected to get involved with "criminals as heroes' movies after showing the tale of crook-hating Dirty Harry.

It was the times. The "counter culture" was in the air, movies were meant to serve youth, youth ostensibly was anti-establishment. "Vietnam and Watergate" were offered as cynical reasons not to trust anyone over 30 - though Vietnam was a longer nightmare than Watergate, and shed blood. (In other words, Vietnam was a horror show; Watergate was more of a farce.)

And then we had "the Mafia movies," led by The Godfather, which posited that a lot of killings were OK as long as it was "crooks killing crooks," which little evidence of innocent people being hurt.

One critic summed up the 70's "criminal anti hero movies" this way: "Its not the good guys versus the bad guys anymore -- its the bad guys versus the worse guys"(Hence Charley Varrick's workaday bank robber vs. the Mafia; Newman and Redford's grifters in The Sting versus Robert Shaw's gangster, etc.)

(MORE)

reply

(MORE)

Some of these movies were big hits indeed -- Butch Cassidy, The Godfather, The Sting.

But it seemed as if when too many innocents were in the line of fire, the movies didn't quite hit big. Dirty Harry was a much bigger hit for Eastwood than Thunderbolt and Lightfoot. Bullitt was a bigger hit for Steve McQueen than The Getaway.

I think what's really interesting is how, all these decades later, these "lovable bad guys" actually look a lot worse than they did in the 60's and 70s. We're not on Steve McQueen or Walter Matthau's side anymore when they wound, kill, or outrun the cops. It is a different time. Crooks are....crooks.

Even in the 60's and 70's, a lot of these crook anti-heroes...didn't make it. (SPOILERS below for practically every movie above.)

Bonnie and Clyde get killed. The Wild Bunch gets killed (less one old man who isn't there for the final massacre.) Butch and Sundance get killed. Lightfoot gets killed(by a meaner crook). There was a tragic undertow to a lot of these movies -- they fought the law, and the law won(or another crook, in Lightfoot's case.)

As for the ones where the bad guys win, the happy endings for McQueen in The Getaway and Matthau in Charley Varrick don't feel very right or fair today. (Matthau's gang killed COPS. And he gets away with the loot?)

Perhaps only the ending of The Sting felt right. Our con men win, defeating a gang boss, not by killing him, but by tricking him out of his money.

In any event, around the time that Rocky and Star Wars brought back "good good guys" and happy endings, the criminal heroes of the 60's and 70s were phased out. Yes, Tarantino and others brought them back to a certain extent, but not on the widespread basis we had in the 70's.

reply

Yeah. It was a Seventies thing, EC. Not exclusively of that decade, as it began earlier and ended a bit later, but the whole bad guys as the good guys of a movie thing goes back actually quite a way. I think of the John Huston Asphalt Jungle and Stanley Kubrick's "follow up" (sort of), The Killing; with both featuring sympathetic criminals. Then, on television, criminals and rebels were presented as glamorous if not benign and easy to identify with, though some, like Nick Adams' Johnny Yuma (aka The Rebel) was one such.

It became hip to present professional criminals as heroes (or anti-heroes) in many European films, some "art house", others not. There was that beatnick and Sartre Existentialism cottage industry in films and, to a lesser degree, on television. In American mainstream feature films it took a while longer, and Bonnie & Clyde was the breakthrough in the States. There was also the same year's "other blockbuster", The Dirty Dozen, a nasty groups of guys, some of them truth psychopaths, fighting the Good Fight in Europe, with many dying heroes deaths by the end.

Those kinds of films of the later period, more or less of the Nixon and immediate post-Nixon era.

reply

Yeah. It was a Seventies thing, EC.

---

Hey, telegonus!

Funny how there were a LOT of Seventies things that just didn't much survive that decade. Unhappy endings. Gritty semi-documentary filming style(nowadays even the cheapest cheapjack indie LOOKS good.) Middle-aged guys like Matthau and George C. Scott headlining movies. Etc.

---

Not exclusively of that decade, as it began earlier and ended a bit later,

---

Well, I guess Warners in the 30s and 40s had a lot of "crook" movies(Bogie and Cagney made their names there), but the bad guys always lost, and with the exception, I think of "White Heat'(Cagney) the violence was fairly minimal.

--

but the whole bad guys as the good guys of a movie thing goes back actually quite a way. I think of the John Huston Asphalt Jungle and Stanley Kubrick's "follow up" (sort of), The Killing; with both featuring sympathetic criminals.

---

Absolutely. Isn't it funny how the "connecting star" of Sterling Hayden always leads to confusion about which movie was which? I sometimes wonder if the tyro newbie Kubrick didn't hire Hayden for The Killing to confuse the issue in his favor.



---

I might add that "Asphalt Jungle" writer- director Huston felt he returned to that genre with his 1970 spy thriller "The Kremlin Letter"(a guilty pleasure of mine as you know -- Boone, Sanders, Green!) Except the spies in Kremlin Letter were awful, awful, people. No bad good guys. Just bad bad guys on all sides. I guess Huston felt the gloves could come off in 1970...the first year OF the 70's.

---

reply


Then, on television, criminals and rebels were presented as glamorous if not benign and easy to identify with, though some, like Nick Adams' Johnny Yuma (aka The Rebel) was one such.

---

Well, everybody likes to "walk on the wild side," so charming criminals could get away with a lot. Except to my knowledge no fifties or sixties TV series allowed a criminal to be the hero. I think Robert Loggia played a REFORMED cat burglar(ala John Robie) in THE Cat, but that's about it. Some of Hitchcock's TV episodes famously let the bad guy get away with murder on screen -- as long as Hitch came on at the end to half-heartedly assure us that the cops got the bad guy EVENTUALLY. (Yeah, right.)



---

It became hip to present professional criminals as heroes (or anti-heroes) in many European films, some "art house", others not.

---

Ah, yes. The Age of Belmondo(who always reminded me of the Gallic McQueen, btw.)

And all those caper films -- Rififi, Topkapi, Bob the Something.

---

There was that beatnick and Sartre Existentialism cottage industry in films and, to a lesser degree, on television. In American mainstream feature films it took a while longer, and Bonnie & Clyde was the breakthrough in the States.

---

I saw Bonnie on Clyde on release -- I was probably a little too young -- and they SCARED me. I found their sudden outbursts of raging violence to be well short of heroic. A few more years, maybe I would have "gotten it."

---






---

reply

There was also the same year's "other blockbuster", The Dirty Dozen, a nasty groups of guys, some of them truth psychopaths, fighting the Good Fight in Europe, with many dying heroes deaths by the end.

---

The Dirty Dozen was a huge hit, we are told, because WWII pro-military dads could enjoy it with their anti-War, Vietnam era hippie sons. The Dirty Dozen were on a mission, alright, but rather than blowing up two big Guns of Navarone, they are on a Mission of Murder -- kill generals, and the generals' girlfriends and concubines(no wives are there), war reduced to assassination. That the mission is a "suicide mission" -- the Dozen are mostly bound to die -- made the film as nihilistic as The Wild Bunch two years later.

But hey -- it starred Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson -- two very real macho men.

---

Those kinds of films of the later period, more or less of the Nixon and immediate post-Nixon era.

---

I think it is -- interesting? -- that President Richard Nixon and the "new" MPAA ratings code arrived around the same time: November 1968. Its like Nixon showed up just in time to have a slew of movies made "against him." Though for my money, LBJ had more power and did a lot of damage, too(though he didn't run again, showing some contriteness in the face of loss. Nixon would do the same.)

Here's a weird story: Universal-MCA chief Lew Wasserman was an LBJ crony and wouldn't let Hitchcock make a sex killer story called "Frenzy"(set in New York City) while LBJ was President. Came 1971, Nixon was in office and evidently Wasserman didn't care if Hitchcock made such a distasteful film - the title "Frenzy" was given to a NEW story , set in London, and indeed distasteful.



reply

Now that's an interesting story, EC. Especially given Wasserman's friendship with Ronald Reagan, but then Times Change and Lew might have been, ancestrally, a Democrat, then a Republican. Who knows? Or he could have played on both teams. More likely, he was drawn to powerful politicians.

As to the sex crime stuff in Frenzy, I think it was too Out There for the America of the time in which the film was made, and especially in its planning stages. I'm talkin, not the Age Of Aquarious but the Age Of Charlie Manson. The U.S. was in PTSD mode: first the JFK assassination; then Vietnam; after that, the Civil Rights movement and race problems generally; then the increasingly rebellious and increasingly Left leaning Counterculture and all that entailed (sex, drugs, rock and roll, el al).

In the wake of all the assassinations, I mean from not just JFK and Bobby but George Lincoln Rockwell and Malcolm X, and then MLK. Then the bizarre stuff, whether little green men abducting a New Hampshire couple in their spaceship to the rise of interest in witchcraft, the paranormal and other such things one didn't associate with Middle America, but there it was. Weird crime, too, from the Boston Strangler to the Texas Tower killer to Kitty Genovese.

So, yeah, I think that LBJ got some good advice. That Frenzy was so British made it feel exotic more than creepy. It was like an updated Ripper story. Grisly and yet somehow entertaining. Even Americans embraced it (with reservations), making it the last Hitchcock moneymaker, if not a huge hit in the big scheme of things. It brought "old Alf" back, made him (modestly) bankable; and for a while there he was back in the public eye.

reply

Now that's an interesting story, EC. Especially given Wasserman's friendship with Ronald Reagan, but then Times Change and Lew might have been, ancestrally, a Democrat, then a Republican. Who knows? Or he could have played on both teams. More likely, he was drawn to powerful politicians.

---

I think it was that he was drawn to powerful politicians in general, but for whatever reasons, Uncle Lew really got a connection with LBJ. You will recall that Jack Valenti, the head of the first MPAA "with the R rating," was an LBJ official first. Wasserman "seduced" Valenti to head the MPAA, and Valenti responded, "I will on one condition: that you(Wasserman) personally attend most board meetings."

Anyway it is in the MacGilligan Hitchcock biography that the LBJ/First Frenzy tale comes up. Evidently, even though Wasserman had helped Hitchcock overpower Paramount into making Psycho, Wasserman (for all of Psycho's profit!) didn't want as distasteful a Hitchcock movie being made at Universal! I think Hitchcock got around this by adding the sexual nature of Marnie and the gory murder into Torn Curtain(Wasserman pushed for Torn Curtain with Newman and Andrews as big stars; Hitchcock gave back a downer with a brutal murder as its centerpiece, not a crop duster like action scene.)

More weirdly, MacGilligan contends that once Hitchcock switched to a BRITISH sex psycho in the final Frenzy, Wasserman was even more mollified than if he had been an American sex psycho.

I'm not much sure about this story at all. What IS true, I think, is that Hitchcock after The Birds had box office and critical disappointments with Marnie, Torn Curtain, and Topaz(a melodrama and two spy dramas) so Wasserman gave Hitchcock a greenlight to make "another psycho movie." But WHAT a psycho movie Hitchcock delivered. No "BOO!" factor. Plenty of style, some great set-pieces, but an emphasis on sexual predation that was very uncomfortable to watch, no fun at all.

reply

As to the sex crime stuff in Frenzy, I think it was too Out There for the America of the time in which the film was made, and especially in its planning stages. I'm talkin, not the Age Of Aquarious but the Age Of Charlie Manson. The U.S. was in PTSD mode: first the JFK assassination; then Vietnam; after that, the Civil Rights movement and race problems generally; then the increasingly rebellious and increasingly Left leaning Counterculture and all that entailed (sex, drugs, rock and roll, el al).

--

Yes, it was a very tenuous period. Though "Rosemary's Baby" fit the times (and came out of a younger generation of filmmakers led by, ironically, Roman Polanski), I don't think Wasserman would have approved that either.

So you find the pressure from Wasserman on Hitchcock to make a "glamourous spy movie with big stars" and he delivers Torn Curtain. Later, Hitchcock found the bestseller Topaz in Universal's bare cupboard of owned properties. He said he did that one as a favor to Wasserman, but I always felt its emphasis on French protagonists was a nod in Truffaut's direction. In any event, Hitchcock ended up with two back-to-back Cold War spy films that - despite great style and intelligence in each of them, says I -- seemed to connect with no one. And the second one was starless.

Frenzy arrived almost as an antidote to the blah aspects of the Cold War films, it was, wrote one critic, "a sly and savage movie." That's about right.

reply

So, yeah, I think that LBJ got some good advice.

---

Well, what was key was that, by the time Frenzy arrived in all its R-rated glory in 1972, it had a lot of perverse company. The R rating arrived in late 1968, which meant that R rated movies weren't really in the pipeline until 1970 and after (less some starters like "The Wild Bunch"). 1971 and 1972 saw the sexual violence of Straw Dogs, A Clockwork Orange, Dirty Harry, and Deliverance("men's division.") Again, Frenzy fit right in.

---

That Frenzy was so British made it feel exotic more than creepy.

---

It also makes it a nifty "bookend" to the All-American Psycho. Plus, London is just such an older and historic city than the Western locales of Psycho.

And: the film emphasized such British things as pubs(there is one main pub in the story, plus a key scene in a pub down the block from it -- pubs are about one a block in London!) and , immortally, Covent Garden. In retrospect, there was something classic about how Hitchcock "used" Covent Garden, with its swarm of workers going to and fro like ants -- and food everywhere. Hitchcock told Truffaut years before Frenzy that he wanted to make a movie about food -- from fresh from the garden to sewage -- and Frenzy is kind of it. But there is even more atmosphere to Covent Garden in Frenzy: how Rusk disguises himself as a worker bee to dump a victim's body(clad in a potato sack) in a truck; how a worker bee covers a camera switch from inside a building to outside a building; how Rusk himself(the sex psycho) plies his food trade in the marketplace("Don't squeeze the goods til they're yours.") Marvelous.
This is how a movie rises above the norm, if not to full classic status.
---

---

reply

It was like an updated Ripper story. Grisly and yet somehow entertaining.

--

You'd be surprised at how many positive reviews called it "fun." Even with a graphic sex killing as its centerpiece. Life's Richard Schickel wrote, "it shows how a great master entertainer can entertain."

Oh, I guess so. I suppose the issue is that 90% of Frenzy is NOT that horrible rape-murder, and what's everywhere else is at once comic(the Oxford dinners) and stylish(the second rape-murder in the film, not shown at all but represented in a poignant reverse track from a closed door down a staircase.) And the rape-murder is powerful enough to make the entertainment value of Frenzy ..."serious, not friovolous."

---

Even Americans embraced it (with reservations), making it the last Hitchcock moneymaker, if not a huge hit in the big scheme of things. It brought "old Alf" back, made him (modestly) bankable; and for a while there he was back in the public eye.

----

Its weird. Frenzy was clearly a big, big CRITICAL hit (almost 90% raves, all raving about a comeback -- "Return of Alfred The Great"), but not necessarily a box office blockbuster on the order of Psycho, and -- we can only guess -- not really a movie that most audiences truly "enjoyed"(as they had North by Northwest from Hitchcock, and The Sting a year after Frenzy, from Universal, as examples of REAL hits.)

In the "who knows?" world of Hitchcock scholarship, some writers posted Frenzy's earnings at $16 million and "Hitchcock's second-biggest money maker after Psycho." I expect there are some inflation adjusted issues here and that Frenzy is well behind Psycho, NXNW, Rear Window, The Birds as an earner. But it seems to have tripled its $3 million cost, and sold to ABC for $2 million for (bowdlerdized) TV showings.

reply

What I do remember warmly as a youhg Hitchcock fan was those rave reviews, and how "my man Hitchcock" DID comeback in that summer of '72, making the triumphant rounds of TV shows(Dick Cavett gave him a whole 90 minute interview) and magazine interviews. "Near the end" Hitchcock was on top again. I remember my pride and excitement. I remember thinking it was weird to have that pride and excitement about a movie as small and sick as Frenzy, but...oh well, it WAS 1972, after all.

I note, telegonus, that we have "veered off" on a thread about Thunderbolt and Lightfoot and "rooting for bad guys," but this actually DOES fit Frenzy. For Frenzy's R rating allowed not only "sex and violence" but a kind of perverse "rooting for the bad guy" when we accompany sex psycho Bob Rusk on his quest to retrieve an incriminating tie-pin from the grip of his latest dead victim(in a potato truck bed, no less.) This kind of "rooting for the bad guy" is perverse. He's not bank robbers Steve McQueen or Walter Matthau or con men Newman and Redford against the mob; he's a sex killer of women. Hence -- we are NOT really rooting for him to win at all, we are just weirdly understanding of his task.

But this: Like Norman Bates in Psycho, Bob Rusk in Frenzy is a "nice guy" -- on the surface, and that's another Hitchcock point: our worst killers can be surface great guys. And handsome("Otherwise," said Hitchcock, "they couldn't get near their victims.")

Still, Frenzy could not have been made in the 40s or 50's or pre-R 60s, it is of that "bad guy heroes" period of the 70's. Except THIS bad guy is no way a hero....

reply