What do Veterans think of this film? - Hearts and Minds (1975) Discussion

[–] HOTTY919 18 years ago

My step grandfather was apart or in the Vietnam War and he told me it was realy ugly. People were dying. By word of mouth I know people who knows people that served in the Vietnam war and they said the same thing as well. My step grandfather also told me that when the bodies of the US soldiers were being sent back, they(not sure of names) would put coke in the body bags. But he died not from this war, but other, and I beleive they Vietnam War was the war they put coke in the body bags.
But when I saw this film, I was speechelss and I wanted to cry but I could not because I am not a sentimental person.

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[–] spyder7 18 years ago

Thanks for the reply, but that's not really what I was looking for... I'm close with several Vietnam Vets, but none have seen the film. I wanted to get a feel for what other Veterans thought before suggesting it.

Just curious, what are you talking about with coke? Do you mean cocaine or Coca Cola? I'm not really following what you mean either way anyway. Thanks again for the post though.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] chris-2512 18 years ago

There's actually a movie called American Gangster in development at NBC about the life of Frank Lucas, an African American heroin kingpin who actually organized that scam. Not only did Lucas desecrate the coffins of dead American soldiers by transporting heroin in their body bags, he was also heavily influential in creating the entire NY heroin culture in the '60s.

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[–] nosnojsirhc 18 years ago

I've heard about the drug trafficking and it might have even continue into the present.

But the original poster was asking about vets and their opinions of the documentary. I know of many groups that returned and later were against the war (i.e., Ron Kovic's groups). There were also WWII and Korean vets who joined these causes and created Veterans for Peace (http://www.veteransforpeace.org/).

But the Vietnam vets that I know personally have all proscribed to an unwritten law - they do not speak of their experiences with people who were not there. I have only heard them speak abstractly of their experiences and this usually took place with chemical intoxication...

I'd predict that many probably haven't watched this film, but don't know for sure.

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[–] X_Series 17 years ago

I'm also curious. Ofcourse war is always hell, but when it comes to the subject of Vietnam, you only get to hear one version - the one touted by the anti-war movement, "men were drafted because they were poor and/or black", "most men became drug addicts", "American troops loved to burn villages, rape and kill civilians". You never get to hear the thousands of men who proudly served without shame. I'm not looking for anything political, just soldiers telling their stories, like WW2 vets are "allowed" to do.

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[–] half_empty 17 years ago

Thats because there was something worth fighting for in WWII, unfortunately, that cant be said of any war we have been involved in since. Vietnam was a different war, to portay similarly would be untrue and would in no way be respectful to the men who fought in it.

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[–] irresistiblemerrick 17 years ago

Watch We Were Soldiers if you're into that. It's not a documentary I know but it's full of actors like the POW giving all the speeches in this film.... That being one of the reasons I hate the (WWS)film.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] dlanor_51 14 years ago

Bravo X Series

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[–] inf0man 17 years ago

I'm a Vietnam veteran, saw a little combat, and saw this film. To me the best part was watching the bitter amputee veteran saying something like "I hate it when people say 'they don't want to get involved'. I want to rub their noses in it!" The worst part of my military experience wasn't Vietnam but coming home, and the pitying contempt from the comfortable. It's a very powerful movie. Agree with another poster who said the most pathetic part was the parents of a killed soldier mouthing platitudes and bromides about supporting Nixon and "he died for freedom". Soldiers in any war, not just Vietnam, don't fight for causes or freedom, they fight for their buddies. The director had a point of view, and chose his material to fit it, not that there's anything wrong with that.

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[–] spyder7 17 years ago

Thanks inf0man...finally an answer to my question! I appreciate it very much! Thank you for serving as well.

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[–] bentleyger 17 years ago

I was in Vietnam during the 1972 Easter Offensive and counteroffensive. I am not ashamed of my service, was not a babykiller, etc. I still get upset about allmost shooting an innocent man - but fortunately I realized his innocence as I was squeezing the trigger and stopped in time. I have not seen the movie and probably won't. Vietnam movies usually leave me in a bad state of mind.
I was working for Army intelligence and had a security clearance above top secret and the position I was in exposed me to much information that was not shared with the news media or other US troops. This is what I want to say to all of you and the rest of America.
The US has never told the truth about what happened in Vietnam. It is still classified. I cannot for fear of prosecution and I wouldn't want to do anything to hurt my country. But I can tell you this legally. The war was much bigger than you have been told. The results were much larger than any but a very few of us know. The war was an enormous success for the US and no -
we did not lose. As a matter of fact, during the above period it was little more than a duck shoot. Mao taught that when the enemy started to withdraw, the proper thing to do was to end guerilla tactics and persue traditional warfare. This may have worked before B-52s and miniguns but was a disaster in 1972. We killed them by the hundreds of thousands with only 25 to 45 thousand
Americans in country. This is not something that I read about but something that I witnessed firsthand. My best estimate for enemy troops killed during 1972 is approximately 1,800,000 and only 500,000 of them were NVA. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. If you live long enough, it may all be declassified during your lifetime. In the meantime, know this, what you have been told about the war is totally false. All Vietnam vets will be vindicated
when the truth comes out, if it ever does. So for now, we ask them to suffer the humiliation. The vast majority served with great honor and we still ask them to serve a while longer.

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[–] paul-bevan 17 years ago

How was the war a success? It was not a success on any level, it was an embarassment to the US and its administration.

I dont know what you were smoking out there, but the US troops were the enemy not the vietnamese.

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[–] tedmccarron 13 years ago

You say "U.S. troops were the enemy?" You must be a Commie. communism is the eny of mankind in general, and was definatley the enemy during the Vietnam war. I know refugees and children of refugees from Vietnam after the Communists took over. They made life a living hell for the Vietnamese that they didn't kill.

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[–] shrekmichaels 16 years ago

you liberals make me laugh first you want vietnam vetrans to share thier stories but if pro american & good you call it lies & call the vetran all sorts of names cowards SHAME

GOVERMENT SHOULD BAN PERSONAL LIFES

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[–] uglyredhill 16 years ago

Who are you addressing?

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[–] shrekmichaels 16 years ago

all the wackos on this boards

GOVERMENT SHOULD BAN PERSONAL LIFES

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[–] zatoeechii 12 years ago

Proclaiming a victory while not meeting a single objective...
Now that's weird, even by Army standards of Inteligence :)

Vietnam was an armed conflict where bunch of super-smart-fellows in White House, decided to go into war under false pretense (Tonkin), under false presumption (domino theory), trying to execute false strategy (total enemy annihilation).

There are million viewpoints on anything as complicated as war, but above pretty much stands.

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[–] dgregg-834-285479 10 years ago

Bentleyger would like us to think there was some greater good being served in Vietnam. Like a lot of veterans who served, they would like to think that they, in the long run, made the world a better place. This, of course, is nonsense.

Look at the history of Vietnam from the earliest stages of French involvement. through the rejection by Wilson into the League of Nations, Japanese occupation during WWII, Truman ignoring Ho's repeated pleas for US assurance for an independent Vietnam and the reassertion of French rule in 1945 after the Potsdam conference. Don't forget Dien Bien Phu and the resulting Geneva accords which promised free countrywide elections by 1956--which the US helped block.

For a real understanding of Vietnam, consider the post WWII world, a lack of cultural understanding, an unwillingness to forego colonialism, racism and like most wars, religious differences.

No, Vietnam was the result of an irrational fear of monolithic communism which started with the allied victory in WWII. Presidents Truman through Nixon held this fear and perpetuated the most immoral war in history out of sheer ignorance and stubbornness. Millions died for nothing. That is the simple truth many refuse to accept.

There is no back story as you suggest. If there was, it would have come out long ago. The painful truth is there, you just have to look for it.

By the way, I'm a veteran, 25th Infantry Division, Tay Ninh province, 1969-70

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[–] marktayloruk (2374) 2 years ago

What's wrong with being against Communism?

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[–] irresistiblemerrick 17 years ago

Sir.

I hope you don't mind me asking but what are your favourite (if that's the right word) Vietnam war films? I love the genre. Hated We Were Soldiers (thought it was trying to force a point... religion, patroitism etc) loved 84Charlie MoPic (my friend who is ex-forces made me watch it for its realism and tactical correctness)and I'd say Apocalypse Now is my favourite film of all time (although it's argued that it's not strictly a war film).

Thankyou

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[–] inf0man 17 years ago

Haven't seen that many, probably Platoon got a lot of it right,the hassles and contempt between the "heads" and the "lifers" echoed my own experience. Full Metal Jacket was O.K., but it didn't have the look of Vietnam. Apocalyse Now had the look, and what seemed realistic to me was the scene where the Playboy Playmates do their thing like waving meat in front of starving carnivores. Haven't seen WWS or 84 CharlieMopic.

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[–] irresistiblemerrick 17 years ago

Thanks alot.

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[–] chris-2512 17 years ago

Regarding the 'we won' post from the former service man above top secret.

Vietnam was fought as a war of attrition assuming that whoever killed the most of the other side was the victor. This is percisely what lost the war. Although Americans recognize we killed more of them, we left with no strategic advantage and definitely without winning the 'hearts and minds' of the population.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] eucalyptus9 17 years ago

During the Vietnam War, I was doing National Service in the New Zealand Army, in anticipation of conscription being introduced as it was in Australia. NZ had regular Army soldiers in Vietnam, and those who'd returned would often sit around and talk with us at night. One guy, a lean, mean Maori sergeant who was one of the hardest and finest people I ever met, was talking one evening, when one of the National Servicemen asked a question. "Did you," he asked, fairly pompously (the questioner was a University student when not in the Army, and being pompously anti-Vietnam was somewhat trendy on the campuses) "did you witness any atrocities while you were in Vietnam?" The sergeant eyed him silently for a while, then said quietly, "Yes, I did. And they were all committed by New Zealand soldiers." And he explained the circumstances - entering a village, evidence of the VC being there, needing to find out, dealing with villagers who might or might not be VC sympathizers and whose English was non-existent, beating out of them whatever information could be gotten. Not all of the soldiers were natural thugs, and this kind of activity was abhorrent to them, but it was also life and death for them.

I guess that's war for you. "Hearts and Minds" was a powerful documentary, skilfully put together, but as previously pointed out, a film-maker with a point of view shows what's necessary to support that point of view. Without going to the lengths of "Green Berets" or similar jingoistic garbage, I'm sure there's another story to be told from a different viewpoint. As Lt Coker says, (probably the one searingly accurate statement in the middle of his mostly unbelievable utterances), when you're there, nothing else matters. Just life and death - nothing else.

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[–] chris-2512 16 years ago

Thank you for sharing this. Not many people respect Australia/New Zealand participated in the American-Vietnam war.

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[–] uglyredhill 16 years ago

Rather incredible was one of Robert McNamara's statements in 'Fog of War', concerning Australia/New Zealand's role, which can only be put down to sheer honesty of the inadvertent kind.

"None of our allies supported us [in Vietnam]. If we can't persuade nations with comparable values of the merit of our cause, we'd better re-examine our reasoning."

Luminous truth. The ANZUS Treaty is worthless. New Zealand has recognised this.

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[–] uglyredhill 17 years ago

I'm not sure he's bitter for your given reason. The US arguably won on account of demolishing any hopes of Indochina, and a unified Vietnam, ever being a regional power. To that end, it worked, whether Americans finally had to flee from their embassy rooftop or not.

It was a domestic political loss for sure, but that's irrelevent in Vietnam. There's no question that the place was ruined and arrested - culturally, demographically and economically.

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[–] chris-2512 16 years ago

Except now we're trading with them.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] pt100 11 years ago

I didn't fight in the war (I turned 18 in 1968 but got a high lottery number--333). But my brother did, and he thinks it was a mistake and a terrible waste.

I doubt you'll get much condemnation of the war from vets here, though, for two reasons. First, not many of them will visit this site or even watch the film, because it's too painful and they just want to forget it. Secondly, many who fought and started out being patriotic and in favor of the war won't ever change their minds, because it would cause too much cognitive dissonance. They have to continue to believe that what they did was right; admitting otherwise would just be too painful.

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[–] msw1991 11 years ago

"I doubt you'll get much condemnation of the war from vets here, though, for two reasons. First, not many of them will visit this site or even watch the film, because it's too painful and they just want to forget it. Secondly, many who fought and started out being patriotic and in favor of the war won't ever change their minds, because it would cause too much cognitive dissonance. They have to continue to believe that what they did was right; admitting otherwise would just be too painful."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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