MovieChat Forums > The Conversation (1974) Discussion > Some glaring plot holes...(SPOILERS)

Some glaring plot holes...(SPOILERS)


1. Caul's character is secretive and very private. Yet he throws a party in his workspace, with all his sensitive secret equipment, and sleeps with a strange woman next to his latest project, allowing her to steal all his work.

2. Harrison Ford has been called the "gay lover" of the Director. But if this were true, then why would he want Caul to shut up about the murder in the end? Wouldn't he be out for blood against the couple?

3. Why did the director go to the hotel, when he knew the couple was planning something? In other words, if he thought they were just planning to have sex in the hotel, wouldn't red flags go up if one of them tried to invite him there?
After all, they had to "lure him" there, right? It is understandable that he would want to go to the hotel and "bust them", but if one of them invited him, he'd have to rethink what they meant by "do it". And being such a man surrounded by henchmen at his office, he'd certainly arrive with henchmen in a waiting car, and not just get murdered and have his body removed etc. without his men not knowing about it.

4. How is asphyxiation and stabbing consistent with wounds from a car crash?

5. How did the couple get the body out of the hotel without anyone noticing?
How did they clean it up so well?

6. Why did Harrison Ford's character insist on getting the recording so fast?
If it was so important to his boss/lover, the "Director", then why not just call him up and say, "This guy Caul won't hand over the tapes to me, can you talk to him?" Why follow him around and then hire some strange bimbo (who happens to already work for his competitor/colleague) to sleep with him ..in his shop! nonetheless..in the hopes of stealing the tape...when after all, one phone call from the director would have probably been enough to smooth Caul's fear that the tapes were going into the right hands? Because in the end, Ford and the Director are listening to the unedited tape right there, together, in front of Caul, so all the skullduggery was so unnecessary and distracting.

7. How did Harrison Ford's character read Caul's mind or pretend to know what he was thinking? First, about destroying the tapes (why would he make the assumption that Caul might want to destroy the tape? And why did he insist it was "dangerous"? ) Second, at the end he said "We know you know; don't do anything"? How does he know Caul knows anything? Sure, Ford's character said they were watching Caul, but even those closest to him couldn't figure out what he was thinking, so how could some stranger know?

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I got the impression Harrison Ford's character was in on the murder plot--that he was working for the couple, and that they wanted their conversation recorded. If I'm right, they were the ones who actually hired Harry and therefore didn't want the Director to hear the tape until they'd checked it to be sure he (the Director) would hear what they wanted him to hear (especially the time and place of their next rendezvous, which would lure him to the hotel). So that would explain why Ford wanted the tape so fast.

But if the Director didn't hire Harry, why was he the one who paid him? I think the first envelope of money came from the couple, but they had to change their plan when Harry refused to hand the tapes over to Ford. Ford makes the comment when he's playing the tape that he wanted the Director to know of his wife's affair, which implies that Ford hired Harry on his own initiative with the expectation the Director would be willing to pay once he heard the tape. Maybe.

Well, those are just my stabs at understanding a very confusing murder plot. But let's face it--Coppola gets a little tangled up in the story-telling department sometimes. The attempted murder of Frankie Pentangelli in GF II still confuses the hell out of me.

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Yes on the first paragraph (subject to the next sentence). The answer to the question in the second paragraph is that the Assistant convinced the Director to hire Harry. Exactly how he convinced him we're not told: presumably by noting something to make him suspicious of his wife (easy enough to do, particularly with the wife's cooperation).

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As discussed in other threads (and by the previous poster), Harrison Ford's character is in on the murder plot and appears to be the one who engineers it.




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It's a little weird, however, that the couple would say, "that's where we'll do it". Usually couples don't talk to each other that way if they're meeting for
an intimate rendezvous. If they mentioned a specific time and place, then it's even weirder.

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1. Part of the point. Harry opens himself up just a tiny bit and he gets burned. That's cause for him to grow even more insular and paranoid.

2. Is there really anything textually to suggest that Ford's character is gay, aside from the actor's comments? I don't see much to suggest it.

3. Presumably the director didn't know what was going on. Really a plot hole? He probably went to confront his wife and walked into an ambush.

4. Who said anyone saw the body? Probably just a story put out for the press.

5. They flushed it down the toilet.

6. Presumably this is because Ford's character is playing a double-game against his boss. He wants the tapes personally so he can confirm what's on them first. If it's what he wants, he'll use it to egg his boss on to visiting the hotel.

7. The assistant was in a situation where he himself is paranoid and suspicious. Harry outright refuses to give him the tapes at their first meeting and doesn't seem happy to hand them over later on. It doesn't seem a stretch to assume Harry knows what's going on, or at least harbors suspicions.

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If the assistance plotted it, then why did his boss hire harry and not the assistance himself?

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1. Exactly.

2. I agree there's not much in the movie to suggest that. Other than the cookies, I suppose. And the Assistant's manner. In any event, the basic notion, I think, is that the Assistant is playing the Director for a fool. Whether he's his gay lover (which is barely in the movie, if at all) or just his assistant, they clearly have a relationship of confidence. The confidence, on the Director's side, is misplaced. Nothing odd about that. At least in movies, it's one the fundamental pieces of the vast majority of film noirs and lots of other movies.

3. What the OP describes as a plot hole IS the plot. The didn't "invite" him. They lured him, by making him think, inaccurately, that he had heard a conversation they didn't mean for him to hear. He thought he was going to "bust" them in the middle of an assignation. He wouldn't bring "henchmen." He didn't think he particularly had anything to fear, and the whole thing was tawdry and embarrassing. He wouldn't want anyone even to know about it. If he brought someone, it would've been the Assistant. Which, possibly, he did.

4. I think that passes what we need to suspend disbelief. Stab wounds could be covered up with a bunch of other wounds, by making the body a mess. Or, possibly, the body wasn't recovered. It could've been burnt. Also, people do asphyxiate in car crashes, by having their airway damaged or blocked. Christopher Moltisani, for example (though that takes place in a different fictional universe). The details aren't important to the movie.

5. Again, the details aren't important to the movie. They may have bribed a hotel employee or something. It's possible to get a dead body out of a hotel. The movie's not a crime procedural, so there's no need to show that detail.

6. The Assistant is definitely in on the deal with the couple, and that's exactly why he wants the tapes. He's trying to maintain control of the plot.

7. I didn't see him reading anyone's mind. He's nailing down details. Destroying tapes isn't a bizarre thing to do (the question on everyone's mind in 1974 was why Nixon didn't do exactly that). What they were recording was dangerous, for obvious reasons. They were trying to obtain evidence of marital infidelity. The fact that doing so is a dangerous undertaking is, again, a basic feature of many movie plots. "Chinatown," just to throw out one example. At the end: he knows Caul knows what's on the tapes, and that the Director is dead. Even if he doesn't know Caul was at the hotel, it's plenty to worry about. He does not want Harry going to police or the press and talking about the tapes.

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You're overthinking it. It's much simpler than that. There was no murder. Harry has gone crazy. The end.

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No, no, no. There was no murder. Harry has gone crazy.

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So, you're saying it's either poor writing with 10 plot holes, or it's all just a dream? I call it poor writing either way then. Saying it's all a dream is a creative cop out.

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One needs to view the film within it's historical context, the early new-wave influenced "New" Hollywood. Plot is less important than character, so the details of the background story aren't very relevant. This was a new kind of filmmaking, and was, in a way, a response to the over-plotted and over-explained Hollywood narrative.

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5. How did the couple get the body out of the hotel without anyone noticing?
How did they clean it up so well?

Caul would probably be Prime Suspect; given that he asked for that specific room.

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indeed. Had the same thought during that scene. He also breaks into the room and puts his fingers all over everything.

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1. Excellent question and a major oversight by Harry.

2. Harry hallucinated that phone call.

3. There was no murder--it was just a delusion of an increasingly paranoid and unhinged Harry caul.

4. It's not, because there was no murder.

5. They didn't, because there was no murder.

6. I don't know but it doesn't seem that implausible to me that a top aide would take initiative like that.

7. All irrelevant, because Harry hallucinated that phone call.

Boy, if people take Harry's perceptions in the latter half of the movie literally, I can definitely see how it seems really implausible. This never occurred to me, that anyone would do that, until reading this board.

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Please learn the meaning of plot hole, you utter retard.







'Then' and 'than' are different words - stop confusing them.

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1. Harry locks up some of his design papers, so there's nothing out in the open that could be stolen or seen. He's a private guy, but he's human - and I think the bragging Moran pushed his buttons enough so Harry feels like showing off a bit too. They'd also all been drinking all night.

2. Martin Stett being gay was a trait that Ford added to flesh out his character. Stett and the Director being gay lovers is a theory that I don't think Coppola meant to imply.

3. We're only seeing things and knowing about things through Harry. We don't know the details about how the Director, Ann, and Mark ended up in that room. Just as not everything is explained in "Blow-Up." This is a character study, not a neatly tied-up thriller.

4. I assumed the conspirators told authorities that Duvall's body burned up in the crash.

5. They cut the body up into little pieces. They had hours to quietly clean everything up.

6. Harry had gone to the office promptly, but refused to hand over the tapes and accept the money because things seemed fishy to him. Stett was trying to gently (at first) warn Harry not to get involved. Again, because we only see through Harry's POV, we don't know exactly what the conspirators were up to. I theorize that Stett got in touch with Moran, thus explaining why Moran hung around Harry all night.

7. It's more like Stett read Harry's character and actions and knew that Harry was nervous about the whole situation. And at the end, Stett sees Harry at the news conference after the Director's death, so he's aware that Harry is still curious.

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I enjoyed the movie even more the 2nd viewing. Picked up a lot of things I missed, like Harry crossing paths with other main characters. That said there are certainly flaws.

1. I can't see Harry ever letting anyone he doesn't work with into his secret lair. It kinda works for the movie plot, but I find it suspicious that he's so sloppy, drinks much, isn't suspicious that an attractive woman wants to seduce him. And rarely removes his cheap rain coat...lol He's very secretive. That said, I understand the director is making a point about Harry getting burned opening up to someone and have a human connection. His dream about revealing his childhood further emphasizes all that. He was rude and condescending to people at the convention, but invited some back to his base.

1A. A "famous spy" is kind of an Oxymoron. I realize probably only those in the industry may know of him, but still.

2. I do tend to agree with those who think Ford was gay. I just got that sense subtly and if you read the other posts there is the whole offering a "Cookie" thing to confirm that suspicion. So, why would he kill the Director then? Maybe he was either ambitious and cut a deal with the couple. Maybe he had unrequited feelings and jealousy for the director. Maybe revenge for something else (no evidence of that). 6. The director does question him "stop playing it, it's like you want me to believe it". Someone else said Ford altered the tape to make it sound like an affair, not a murder plot and thus why he wanted the tapes given to him and Harry got suspicious.

3-6 There was no murder in the hotel room. Was Harry's delusion and paranoia. For all we know the Director just had an "accident" on the way to the hotel. No one mentioned that. While Harry was creating a bloody scene in his head, the hotel rendezvous was merely a ploy to get the director into the car and have an "accident". This is very common with high profile "accidental" deaths. Plane/car/boat accidents. I will have to freeze frame the newspaper now to see what time the accident took place, if it's listed.

7. Harry was probably watched from the very beginning. The whole things was a set up. They were paying alot of $ for credible tapes, so they would spare no expense to ensure they got what they needed. I suspect he was listened to the whole time or his assistant was in on it. He was asking questions as to what Harry was thinking the whole time. Maybe even the Mime, who was followed via camera in the opening scene for several minutes (cringey) might have been an observer even. I had forgotten about that entire scene the 2nd viewing and thought it odd it was a focus for so long. I don't think it was meaningless or it would have been left on the cutting room floor.

The woman stole his tapes (how would she know which ones to get if not instructed?). Harry is betrayed from all angles, except maybe the Girlfriend that he questions and keeps distant from.

He didn't even want his landlord in his apartment. He certainly wouldn't let those people in his workspace. It's also possibly a side effort of this whole conspiracy was to steal Harry's methods, by paying someone off on the inside and watching him. There are several motives for this, from corporate espionage, blackmail and selling spy devices, which is big $ in it's infancy judging from the trade show.

That said the movie is more of a commentary on society, humanity as a whole with an intriguing plot.

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