MovieChat Forums > The World at War (1973) Discussion > Not very accurate because made pre ULTRA...

Not very accurate because made pre ULTRA disclosure.

posted 8 years ago by wildhippychik
5 replies | jump to latest

Given that it was made pre ULTRA it lacks that vital bit of information that was essential for the Allied victory. Churchill himself told the King - Without Ultra we would have lost the war.

Think of it Rommel earned his great reputation *before* we knew that we had all his communications totally broken. We knew his order of battle, his exact supply situation as he had to report it to OKW (over the "unbreakable" Enigma/Lorez machines) We knew when his supplies were coming and always the convoy was found by a "lone lucky aircraft" and in short order a massive attack would decimate it as we knew they whole plan. Rommell almost won at El Alamein even with our massive numerical advantage and that he was on fumes AND we knew even how many tanks he had, their displacement etc. For a while he kicked us up and down the desert even with this massive advantage. It can't be emphasized enough.

At Kursk - they touch on intelligence - but it was more than that - the Soviets knew as much as the German commanders as they got *everything* that was transmitted to them.

Note: Some of the more successful German commanders were the petulant ones who disobeyed orders - thus throwing off the Allied trap, essentially.

It's one of the reasons the Allies weren't as creative and adventurous at the Germans - they didn't have to be. They just used ULTRA and their material advantages to build up these big set pieces. That's why it took them so long to close out the wear from D-day. The Germans didn't even have an air force at that point and it almost took a year.

Even with ULtra when we went for a strategic masterpiece or even a bold move like Market Garden - it gave the Germans a chance to react dynamically where we would be able to know what they were doing before hand and in that case they usually won where it was anywhere near equal terms - often if we just didn't have the intelligence advantage would be hard pressed.

God bless Bletchley Park - the reason we won the war and the true and greatest heros of the Allied war effort.

[–] lnzbyl 8 years ago

Rommel was no doubt not just one of the most brilliant military minds of the Second World War (in my opinion, the most brilliant). I honestly don't Mongomery would have defeated him at all if "Monty" hadn't gotten reinforcements of soldiers and tanks from America. General Omar Bradley lists Rommel as one of the greatest military leaders off all time (he was the only general from WW II to make the cut), and I am inclined to agree.

[–] paultapner 8 years ago

Producer Jeremy Isaacs does state in one of the dvd extras that the government papers about Bletchley park weren't declassified till 1975. Over a year after the shows initial run. And that if they had known about it when the show was being made, it would have gotten a mention or possibly an episode.

[–] dannieboy20906 8 years ago

As valuable as ULTRA was, I think you grossly over-estimate its overall impact. It may well have made the difference between winning and losing, but not because of anything that happened in the land campaigns. The greatest impact of ULTRA was in the Battle of the Atlantic, which was a very near run thing.

Not only did we need to defeat the U-boat threat to keep England from starving, we (the United States and the Allies as a whole) needed England as a staging base for Operation Overlord (D-Day and all that). Without ULTRA we would not have won that campaign. It is called a battle, but battles are over in days to weeks. A fight that lasts five years and undergoes multiple stages with changes in strategy is a campaign.

The Allies not creative? All we did was read their plans on ULTRA intercepts and react? Those statements cause me to strongly believe you are a troll just looking for an argument.

Of course, the Allies really boils down to only two, the US and the UK (along with the Commonwealth). In theory we were allied with the USSR, but they were a military dictatorship every bit as bad as any of the Axis powers. Sometimes you need to make a pact with the devil because you can only fight one evil at a time. The other allied countries were of marginal assistance.

In case you've forgotten, Market Garden was a total cock up and it was the fault of Montgomery and his staff. The planning was poor, the objective was way over ambitious, and Field Marshal Montgomery was the wrong man to be in charge if they wanted any hope of success.

Nevertheless, we do need to ask a blessing on Bletchley Park, Alan Turing, and all the code breakers. But, be realistic. They didn't win it by themselves and could not have.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

[–] John-367 7 years ago

I'd recommend the Channel 4 mini-series "Station X" as an add-on to watching The World At War. It was probably the first major TV exploration of Bletchley Park.

Incidentally, I'd also recommend the BBC's "The Nazis A Warning From History" which has more space to go into detail about the workings of the Nazi State.

[–] Karl Aksel (1451) 3 years ago

Think of it Rommel earned his great reputation *before* we knew that we had all his communications totally broken. We knew his order of battle, his exact supply situation as he had to report it to OKW (over the "unbreakable" Enigma/Lorez machines) We knew when his supplies were coming and always the convoy was found by a "lone lucky aircraft" and in short order a massive attack would decimate it as we knew they whole plan. Rommell almost won at El Alamein even with our massive numerical advantage and that he was on fumes AND we knew even how many tanks he had, their displacement etc. For a while he kicked us up and down the desert even with this massive advantage. It can't be emphasized enough.

That was possibly the main reason for Rommel's success: the Brits thought they knew what Rommel was going to do, as they knew what his orders were. After all, one does follow orders, doesn't one? Not Rommel. He had his own agenda. Rommel's advances were his own initiative. His original orders were to help out the Italians and hold - he did not have the mandate to go on the offensive. He was a constant thorn in the collective sides of both the German General Staff and British High Command as a result.