MovieChat Forums > Ultimo tango a Parigi (1973) Discussion > High-class porn

High-class porn

posted 10 years ago by twofacetoo
27 replies | jump to latest

Before anything else is said, I want to clarify that I adore classic cinema, with Kubrick's 'Space Odyssey' being my favourite film due to it's subtle beauty and gentle majesty.
And now, having said that, I think that 'Last Tango In Paris' is nothing but absolute garbage masquerading as something better. I watched the film some years ago, and realised recently that I couldn't remember much of it. So I decided to rewatch it just the other day... and there's a reason I didn't remember much of it.
Other than the overly gratuitous sex and nude scenes, the film is completely forgettable. I can't quote to you a single line other than 'go get the butter'.
The only memorable thing in the movie is the sex, which in itself boils down to the fact that it's about 75% of what we see.
If you see something in this film other than that, congratulations, I applaud you. But to me this will always be nothing more than cheap pornography made to look classy with some music, lighting and 'acting', if that's what you call it.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Oh, I see. I disagreed with your opinion, so that means I'm a shallow moron.
Did you miss the part where I said how I adored Kubrick's work? And I adore them for their intelligent yet beautiful design?
And I find it amazing that you think my remembrance of the line 'go get the butter' is speaking to my mental state or intelligence? Despite the fact that it's one of the most famous lines in cinema as well as the most famous line in the movie? It's like if I said 'Luke, I Am Your Father' and you had a problem with me remembering it was from 'Star Wars'. More to the point, YOU quoted it as well at the end of your ramble.
And congratulations, you could get into the characters and the story. My point was: I COULD NOT. Not that nobody else in the entire world should, just that I saw absolutely nothing of value in this movie.
My point was that I couldn't get immersed in the narrative because to me there WAS no narrative. I enjoy movies with deep, rich and complex plots but this felt like nothing more than two people having sex.
And I feel the need to remind you (since you missed it the first time), I love film as an art form. I've studied film-making in college, which led to my discovery of 'Space Odyssey' as my favourite film due to it's sheer beauty and intelligence. I could write you an essay on why 'Planet Of The Apes' is a socio-political commentary on the message of 'The Matrix' and make it sound plausible.
But in terms of this film... I saw NOTHING of value. Take it as my opinion and learn how to read. You clearly missed out the most important parts of my post.

...either that or you just decided to ignore them since you had no answers.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Y'know, it's funny. You say that you aren't demanding people like the movie and then you spend, what, five hours writing out an essay on why my negative opinion regarding the film is wrong, and then end by saying that my opinion should be ignored simply because you disagree with it.
If you're going to this incredible length to prove your point, insisting that you're right, then frankly, I pity you. You're just so desperate to prove yourself to me I get the feeling nobody actually loved you as a child. Did that drive you towards nothing but artistic movies all your life? Presumably so, as I wager you're drinking your black coffee right now, as you straighten your beret.
I was completely prepared to have a serious, mature discussion about why I don't like this film, but clearly you were having none of it. You instead attacked me personally, insulting me directly because my opinion differs from yours. You acted like a child, and so I'm going to treat you like a child, by simply not giving you any more attention.
I'm not even going to bother with you anymore. You're a sad, warped little person who has spent their entire life trying desperately to be right about something, putting yourself on pedestal because of the things you like and pretending you mean more than everyone else in the world.

Oh, and one last thing:
I never claimed I was an authority on cinema. YOU did that. I never said that liking one movie meant I was a genius. YOU said that. And lastly, you DID ignore parts of my original post, I assume due to not having a good enough response at the time.
You twisted the facts and put words in my mouth to make it seem that I was the bad guy here. All I ever did was say 'I don't like this movie'. I saw nothing in it but pornography and exploitation masquerading (poorly) as an artistic film. You have a different opinion. Congratulations. I'm not preventing you from having that opinion. But you saw that I had something to say and, in a mindset I can only describe as Nazi-ish, decided to crush anything that disagreed with you and your beloved smut-flick.

You said that I provided no actual evidence of why I thought the movie was garbage, and honestly, I'm not even going to try and explain it to you, because if you could get your over-inflated head out of your ass for just a few minutes you'd be able to look at your beloved 'art' film and realise that it truly is just artistic pornography marketed as something more than what it is.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] Falconeer 7 years ago

Ok, so you don't like erotic cinema. why not leave it at that? "Last tango" might not be deep, but it is artistically filmed and features an incredible score, and it IS erotic. That in itself is "art." So why not just leave it alone? I love "2001: A Space Odyssey" too, but I can also appreciate films like "Last Tango In Paris" just for the sheer beauty and sensuality. Insulting something just because YOU don't like it is rather juvenile, don't you think? And make no mistake; referring to a legitimate film as "porn" is highly insulting..

Fabio Testi is GOD

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[–] twofacetoo 7 years ago

You want it in simple words? Okay, 'I don't get it'. Does that work?

I look at this movie and I see nothing but a porn film (which, by the by, someone was raped during. Interesting, that), with too many people praising it for being something more. I like a good bit of arty cinema but this just seems like a bunch of snooty pricks claiming they know so much more than anyone else does purely because they like this movie.

I don't get how anyone can look at this film and see it as something more than just an expensively made porn flick. All I see is a bunch of people desperately trying to justify what they want this movie to be.

It's like that South Park episode about 'Catcher In The Rye', and how the book is regarded as a controversial work because of subtext, but if you just read it as a novel then there's nothing shocking in it at all, it's incredibly tame. To me this film is just a waste of time that too many people insist is so incredible it can't be described by the mortal tongue.

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[–] Falconeer 7 years ago

Did you ever stop to think that if so many "snooty pricks" are praising it for something more, maybe it actually is, and YOU are just unable to grasp it? And do you know what "porn" is? Because if you ever saw actual "porn" you might not call THIS porn. "Last Tango" is simply the study of an intense, physical relationship. It's a film about an older man, trying to replace what he has lost, (and the character has lost a lot) with something shallow and physical. Of course the relationship falls apart and becomes increasingly violent, as the couple become more familiar with each other. It is a study of madness, and loneliness, alienation and desperation. In fact it runs the gamut of emotions, and it is fine drama. From the first frame, the viewer is watching this man, who is careening off the rails, and we watch in fascination as two people come apart and nearly destroy each other. Basically, it's a tale of madness. It is a cathartic experience, like most of Bertolucci's catalog of work. "Last Tango" is certainly not his best film, it just happens to be his most infamous. Personally, when I think of this film, I don't think of the sexual scenes, but rather the conversations the two lovers have about life, that show just how different a 19 year old woman and a 45 year old man perceive the world around them. The final sequence, at the tango competition, is among the most brilliant and iconic scenes in film history. To hear THIS being referred to as "porn" bothers me; the movie itself is not vulgar; it's YOUR perception of it that is vulgar..

Fabio Testi is GOD

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[–] twofacetoo 7 years ago

I imagine you say the same of the type of movies you'd find advertised in a Playboy magazine too
I watched this film and I saw nothing but the frustrated desires of an old man being forced onto a younger woman who at times didn't even want to be involved. At no point did I feel any kind of depth in this film, I saw nothing more than a sexual fling dressed up to look pretty. And the problem here is I'm not against that, I'll admit wholeheartedly that 'Eyes Wide Shut' could easily be another artsy porn film, just Kubrick working his way through a top 10 list of weird sexual kinks, but the thing is people don't try and deny that.
I posted my thoughts on this board a good long while ago and I still get hate-filled messages because of what I thought of this film, as if it's impossible for people to disagree with each other and express opinions and viewpoints. But regardless of that, my issue isn't with this film, it's with the fans, with people like you, who will type out screeds of text trying to tell me how emotional and deep this film is, when the most famous line (and indeed one of the most famous lines in cinema) is about getting butter to use as anal lubricant. This film is smut. I don't mind that, nor do I mind the fact that the film doesn't mind that either. What I mind is people insisting that it's something meaningful and emotional and deep when it's nothing but highly-funded and nicely-shot pornography

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[–] 7 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 7 years ago

I don't have a problem with people enjoying this film, I already said that my problem is with people who demand that everyone agrees that this film is deep. You're the one who can't accept a contrary opinion.

And then you start the insults. Perfect. Let's see what we have.
So you call me stupid, shallow, and rant for over ten lines about my use of the word 'smut'. You even go on to imply that I'm a paedophile of all things, and then you accuse me of being a SERIAL KILLER.

Not only that, you end this moronic, self-sucking tirade by implying you're going out to rape someone. Congratulations, you've been reported for your words.

Next time you're going to threaten someone because they DISLIKED A FILM, consider how pathetic your life is when you genuinely see that as an appropriate response.

Goodbye, you sickening horrible person.

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[–] Falconeer 7 years ago

Hahahahaha! You translate my comment that I need to go to the supermarket to buy butter into "I'm going out to rape someone?" Wow. I wish I knew from the beginning that i was dealing with a person who is very sick. But I guess i should have realized the kind of sick toad that I was dealing with; Anyone who views art films as porn has got to be some sick, perverted toad. I hope you don't live near any pre-schools. Yeah, piss off bitch. Get some help..

Fabio Testi is GOD

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[–] Xeelo 9 years ago

Some of the nudity and sex scenes, like butter scene, are totally needless and are only there because Bertolucci is a sweaty pervert. The Dreamers being another example.

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Exactly my point, but try telling him that.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] curious_chaos 9 years ago

I think that Last Tango is a wonderful movie. I enjoy it for many reasons , such as watching the finest acted performance to ever come from a filmed human being, the gorgeous music, the wonderful cinematography, and the knowledge of knowing that I am watching a true piece of cinema history.

Last Tango broke boundaries when it came out. I respect that. This movie did for movie sexuality the same thing A Clockwork Orange did for violence-- it marked the arrival in a quality, artistic representation.

I wouldn't say that Last Tango is pornographic in any way, either. Pornography is purported only for erotic pleasure-- Last Tango is so far from being arousing. Nudity and sexual activity are not necessarily always a naughty thing-- humans have sex.

Sometimes it's fair to just admit dislike for certain movies instead of disdain. Last Tango is, at this point, considered a masterpiece, acclaimed all over the place. Which I agree with. It doesn't deserve the negative reputation it has. It's not a perverse film.

I'm sorry you don't like it. I think you're missing out but that's okay because it's perfectly fine to dislike a movie :)

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] lazarillo 9 years ago

I'm sorry YOU can't see past the "porn". But the best scenes in this are when Brando curses at and breaks down while delivering a monologue to the dead body of his wife or the scene where he follows the young girl around Paris at the end. These scenes have nothing to do with sex.

Some things really are a matter of opinion, but when you sarcastically refer to one of the best performances by a great American actor like Brando as "acting, if that's what you call it", you're just plain wrong and don't know what you're talking about. I'm not insulting you, but it's like saying "Citizen Kane is incompetently directed garbage". It's a stupid, trolling claim, not worth arguing about.

You can also easily verify that this movie is NOT 75 percent sex scenes, maybe 10 percent at best. Were these gratuitous and indulgent? No, it's a movie about a man who is in incredible pain and he expresses it sexually with this rather naive young French girl. Her motivation is rather more problematic maybe. (And I don't no about the "ass of death" scene).

But really it's like discussing "Moby Dick" and slagging it because of how disgusting you find whaling, or discussing the novel "Lolita" and slagging it based how disgusting pedophilia is. Basically YOU are missing the beautiful forest here because YOU have chosen to focus on a certain tree.

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Describing this film with metaphors makes it no less pathetic.

And 'I'm not insulting you' - 'It's a stupid, trolling claim'
Gotta love how opinions nowadays are referred to as trolling whenever it's something radical.
And by the by, I found 'Citizen Kane' to be boring as sin. The symbolism was cheap and the writing was basic and banal, not what I would ever call 'the greatest film ever made'.

Also, Brando was a decent actor on his best day, and a horrible person in reality. He was difficult to work with, rude to his co-workers, sneered down his nose at the writers of his movies and all because he thought he was the greatest thing on Earth.
If I'm being harsh to Brando it's only because nobody else ever is.

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Ah, so hating a *beep* movie means I hate everything involved in it. By that logic I also hate Paris, and dancing, and butter. And since you don't like Ghostbusters, you must hate ghosts, Sigourney Weaver, and black people. Man, you sound like a right douchebag, hating black people for no reason.
See how that works? Or rather, see how your logic is bollocks?

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

So because I have a different opinion, I must be stupid. Love how 'open-minded' you're being right now. You're so open-minded you're refusing to accept any opinion which isn't 100% identical to yours. Open-minded. Yup.
Listen pal, I have nothing against you, but you're starting to aggravate me. I came here to speak my mind, since that's what this board is for. I didn't like this movie, and explained why.
And your reaction? If I don't like a movie, then I must be stupid. Did it never dawn on you that maybe a person can have a different opinion without being brain-damaged?
Mate, I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm simply here to give an opinion, and that's what I did. Your opinion was then that I'm stupid. I did nothing to you, and you verbally attacked me. You're instigating me, and if it continues this will devolve into a rambling, festering pit of insults and *beep* so here's the deal:
You don't reply to this, and we call it quits. You won't lose face, we won't waste time shrieking at each other, I can have my opinion and you can have yours. Instead of both of us yelling and arguing, we can just quietly regard each other with anger. Just stay quiet on your end, and I won't say another word to you either.
This is your ultimatum, son. Take the high road and we both get out of this happy with some time on our hands to do something we enjoy. Take the low road and we descend into bitching and shouting. I have nothing against you, and I don't WANT to have anything against you. I'd much rather spend tonight relaxing with a movie, hell maybe even 'Last Tango In Paris'.

So what do you say? Take the high road and be civil? Or take the low road and act like children?

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] twofacetoo 9 years ago

Well, one good turn deserves another.
I saw this film because I heard so many good things about it, but it failed to have any real kind of impact on me is all. I understand being defensive of the things we connect with, and I can see why you like it so much.
I've had the same kind of profound experience with other films like '2001: A Space Odyssey' and 'The Good, The Bad And The Ugly'. I'd probably respond the same if someone critcised them.
And no apologies are necessary. By simply being civil, you've already proven yourself to be a person I can respect and admire. You seem like a good guy too, and I hope you have a good morning, afternoon, evening, or whatever it is depending on your timezone.

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[–] thomaskellar21 9 years ago

I am very eager to see this film for Brando's performance. Out of curiosity, really, how much of the film is sex scenes, and how graphic are they? Because I'm hoping for a film that is more drama and less sex than the other way around.

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[–] tallard 7 years ago

The butter scene was non consensual. Brando and Bertolucci colluded to dupe (rape) Maria, in order that she would not be acting, so that the director could capture her real anger and shame, not acting.

NOT ACTING, REAL RAPE, REAL SHAME, REAL PTSD, REAL woman's LIFE RUINED.

***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**

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