Did they really shoot chickens in the opening shot?!!

Where did I say I like this film? I'm actually not a big Peckinpah fan, I find his movies to be meandering and tedious. I only watched it because it's what my friend rented the night I visited. But anyway, I don't agree with your assessment of the chickens' distress. My first reaction was the same as yours, but as I continued to watch the scene it didn't seem like the chickens were terribly alarmed, even as chickens next to them were being blasted to smithereens. Chickens just aren't terribly cognizant, y'know?

Those chickens died just as quick, or quicker, as any chickens slaughtered for consumption in the conventional manner. And none of them were squawking in terror at their plight. So unless you're a vegetarian, it's somewhat hypocritical to complain about having to view their demise. And I highly doubt that you are a vegetarian, since you're only complaining about the particular manner of slaughter. Do you think the chickens you eat are gently ushered into the KFC afterlife with soft music and soothing words? Or do you simply prefer not to think about it at all?

'Sorry, but for doing that, [yarrumlib] deserves to be called an idiot.'

As in writing the above unbelievable-if-it-weren't-from-a-lib comment.

As anyone who has ever had farm chickens around knows, there is no such thing as 'stress' in the life of a chicken. A chicken is a being which has successfully lived for years with no head at all, so the premise that they 'feel' ANYthing at all, let alone 'stress', '...just doesn't hold.'

Chickens _never_ '...know what's going on.' The Sun is burning just like always, and the chickens, just like always, are paying absolutely no attention to it.
Any farmer can tell you of chickens routinely standing in the sun until they drop dead. It's considered a routine loss in chicken farming.

They _have_ no 'attention' for _any_thing: They're chickens.

They do not '...see people shooting at them.' They 'see' no more than a few feet from their eyes, and being chickens, there is no 'thought' in their heads, thus no 'fear'; 'terror'; 'fright', or any other emotion.

They _have_ no 'emotions, yarrumlib. They are chickens, not human beings.

They do not see '...other chicken heads being shot and exploding around them...' any more than they 'see' a truck running over a chicken, or a farmer wringing the neck of a chicken right next to them.
If they could experience life in a reasonable manner similar to you and to me, as your every statement above imputes to them, they would not cluster around the farmer's wife as she bends over and over again to wring the necks of chicken after chicken each and every day of their collective lives.

And, finally, what could be more humane a death than a sudden nothingness as your head is vaporized in a thousandth of a second?

Other than being intellectually euthanized at an early age in the public schools, as apparently happens all too frequently, but we won't mention names.

My mate worked at sun valley. A massive mechanised chicken factory and slaughter place.

These chickens yes there end was not pleasant but there life in and around the yard was. Over all the where treated far better than the chicken we all eat in the the modern West.



'Work is the curse of the drinking classes' Oscar Wilde

At industrialised chicken farms (at least the one's I've worked in) they don't chop the heads off, they pull it off while alive. A rig transports the chicken down a line with it's head between two bars, as the chicken furthers down the line the two bars draw nearer and nearer and the fixture holding its body is declined while the bars run level until ultimately the head is pulled off removing the top portion of the spine which nobody wants. They are lined up 100s in a row and the chickens don't even pay attention to the dozens of it's peers meeting their fate right in front of them. Check out "theory of mind" no other animal has the self awareness that we do, some are closer than others, dolphins, apes, etc but chickens are completely instinct driven with almost no logical thought at all, even a chimp can't differentiate itself from the other things in its environment and has no ability to determine cause and effect and thus will not stress out.

There's a test were they show children two ppl, both have a basket, the one on the left has a lollipop and leaves it in his basket then leaves, the other takes the lollipop and puts it in his basket, when the first person returns, they ask the children where he will look for the lollipop... all children under 4 will say the first person will look in the second person's basket (even though the 1st person should look in his own basket which is where he left the lollipop as he did not know that the other person took the lollipop. This is because young children don't understand that others have their own mind and aren't privy to what others already know, the smartest chimps in the world also fail this test. Chickens don't get traumatised by anything, they react instinctually to noises and movement but that's about where it ends, they could watch a billion of their peers die horendously and it will not phase them in the least, they do not know about death, they dont even know that they are alive or that life can end. They are like rudimentary programs which have limited functions, your computer will not stress out because you destroy a laptop in its presence even if the cam is on.

On smaller farms they chop the heads off right in the penyard and the other chickens don't run away or cower in fear, you can walk up to each of them one at a time, grab'em, chop and they are oblivious to it all, they really don't even know that chopping thier heads off will kill them, again because they have no concept of death nor does any other animal, they have tried to no avail to explain death to chimps but it is pointless, they cannot comprehend such a thought. Smarter animals will notice that something is missing from their environment such as a member of their pod or clan and will react with confusion which is often mistaken for sadness but which is really more akin to moving your dog's dish of food from one room to another, he's not sad about it but look so because he is confused by it. The effect will last longer with a missing peer since they will never find them or if they do, the peer doesn't move anymore like it used to but they do not know why and still will not realise that it will one day happen to them, a curse and a blessing I suppose. There was another experiment where scientist placed a dead chimp from one clan in the territory of another, the chimps were confused for a minute or two then paid no attention to it since it wasn't in their environment before and thus they had never seen it move or interact with anything, so as far as they could tell it had always been immobile unlike when one of their own clan dies and susdenly stops moving, the only interest shown was due to it suddenly being there, they reacted the same to anything being placed in their territory. Where as a human will have a huge reaction to any dead human it encounters because we know it's dead.

Peckinpah, to the general docile, apathetic public was renowned for his ghastly violence that shocked and stirred a nation, a nation which tried to resist their gut feelings, that were through no fault of their own, an emotional response to his films, by banning them and/or and cutting the length to a point of artlessness, just bearable for an oversensitive, old fashioned grandma. God, I would have been depressed if someone looked at me and judged me that quickly, especially if they had more power over what art I made.

The point of this little window that you guyz'r lookin' at is...
Peckinpah hated violence. He hated the underplaying of violence in film also. He felt that true pain, true gunshot wounds were almost romantically dulled down as to not offend. But Peckinpah always knew that violence in it's true nature is offensive. It taps into our primal fears and instincts. Watching chickens get shot is not for entertainment, but for horror. Peckinpah was very,deeply troubled by the fact that some people enjoyed watching the ending scene of "The Wild Bunch", because it is said that they could not EMPATHISE with the characters, which was something Sam assumed. Either that, or they shut their eyes to it, staying in their own unrealistic innocent world. If you think what you're watching is entertainment, it only says something about you, and your inability to empathise, whise is a basic human emotion. That's where Peckinpah is as always, a step ahead. His films are different, and "the crowd(see above for'<i>general, docile, apathetic public</i>')" tend not to like his films, sometimes, because they do not try to relate. They want spoonfeeding. Sam, being a man, and expecting no less the SAME from his male audience, is the last person to do that.

Chicken's bloody parts flying about. Chicken corpses, claws, feathers, beaks, eyes. Poetry made of horror, or just life as it is. a descision WE make, not Sam. Not our preconceptions either.

In the documentary SAM PECKINPAH MAN OF IRON the spfx man who worked on this scene confirmed that the heads of the live chickens were blown off with explosive squibs. He also explained that when you bury chickens as in the film the go to sleep so lighter fluid was squirted into their eyes to keep them awake. This is my all-time favourite Western and I'm not to squeamish about the quick death of a chicken but the lighter fluid does seem a bit extreme.

So many films, so little time.

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"Yea, and you *beep* are only humans, but I'd kill you too."


What is your problem, for God's sake? I like animals as much as the next guy, but when you people start talking like this it makes me want to club baby seals to death. You call people sick because they don't particularly care about chickens being killed for a movie. Chickens that were going to be killed anyhow. Chickens that, like someone already mentioned, were probably given a less painful death than the rest of their folk.

You call these people sick and say you want kill them.

You think you're a better person for defending the rights of creatures who don't care about their rights, who could not possibly ever have an idea of what a right even is, who don't have any idea of what a feeling, a movie, life, hippies and peace and love, is? Well, you're not. Defending animal rights is a noble cause. But like any noble cause, it can get twisted and corrupted, and you've done that. You suck. You're a horrible person. Wishing people to die? Just because they don't, quite understandably, find this issue as disgusting as you do? It puzzles me how someone who supposedly has so much empathy towards "all of God's creatures" can be so quick wish death on actual people?

People.

And it wasn't a pointless scene, just as the chickens weren't killed without a reason. First of all, what's the difference between this chickens being killed on-screen or off-screen? They were food. They were going to die anyhow. Second of all, it's art. Let's suppose for a second that chickens do have thoughts and feelings and a clear understanding of what's going on around them. Wouldn't you, knowing that you're going to get killed anyhow, prefer to die on a major studio movie?

Well. Wouldn't you?

But, alas, chicken don't have a clear understanding of what's going on around them or feelings or thoughts, so they don't give a *beep*

Humans, on the other hand, do have feelings and thoughts. And they love people, and watch movies, and have friends and children, and learn things, and they create things like animal rights and human rights, they make mistakes and they do wonderful things, like putting a guy on the moon, pornography, theater, novels, movies like "Pat Garret and Billy The Kid" and "The Wild Bunch," and, you know what? They earn the right to have their life valued and cherished.

The right for people like you not to freaking think that not caring about the life a worthless creature like a chicken is an offence punishable with death. You're a terrible person, man. Seriously.

And without "Pat Garret and Billy The Kid"'s opening scene, all anybody would have to say about a chicken is that, damn, they make some good eating.