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A question I've always pondered seriously as a non-Christian

posted 13 years ago by meebly
42 replies | jump to latest

I was raised Jewish, and today I identify as a deist completely unaffiliated with any religion. I ask this question not to offend anyone, but simply as the result of having applied my own internal logic to the very terrestrial story I've seen and heard many times of the story of Jesus.

The question is this: Although this play/film portrays a more sympathetic Judas, I've always wondered why Judas is considered such a villain. If Christ did indeed have to be sacrificed, if this was his destiny as ordained directly by God the Father, then didn't Judas simply help fulfill this destiny? I understand he sold out Jesus to the Romans, but it always seemed to me to be part and parcel of the bigger picture in which the crucifixion was Jesus' inevitable fate, in which case Judas may have been a pawn and a weak man, but in fact he was doing God's work in delivering Jesus to the Romans. By the logic that dictates this fate was inevitable, if Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus, someone else would have had to carry out the task in some other way that ultimately led to the crucifixion.

In the brilliant and unfairly maligned film (and I assume the book as well) THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST, Judas, as played by Harvey Keitel (some of the most curious casting on record), is a smug, self-serving huckster. But when Jesus "imagines" his life as a mortal man, married to Mary Magdalene and living with her and their children, Judas is the one who comes to him and verbally assaults him for defying the word of God. This, to me, seems a portrayal of Judas much more in line with the concept of a necessary tool in fulfilling the life and death of Christ as ordained by God.

I know there are angry fundamentalists who will attack my very questioning of what is their absolute certainty of the events in question. Of course, these people will already condemn me for being a non-Christian, so I don’t really have the time or inclination to abide their feedback. But if anyone who considers him/herself to be an enlightened individual, no matter what your spiritual beliefs, can help either to enlighten me or to reinforce my conclusion, I’d eagerly welcome some feedback on my question. Thanks.

[–] stanevans16 13 years ago

The answer is simple and complex. There is no reason why Judas can be a villain AND fulfill God's plan of redemption at the same time. God knew that Satan would do everything up until the end to derail the Sacrifice which would offer sinful humanity a chance to reconcile with his holiness. Just because Judas predictably does what Satan instructs him to doesn't let him off the hook although at the same time, he's performing a deed necessary for God's beautiful act of love. Also, even though he betrayed our Lord there was still time to turn away and ask for forgiveness. Look at the thief on the cross. There is always time to ask God for forgiveness through the cleansing blood of Christ. But Judas chose the ultimate Satanic sacrament--suicide (I believe it's the 4th sacrament in the Satanic ritual). In any event, if Judas hadn't stepped up, another agent of Satan would have. Satan had to try, there was nothing in his nature that could stand Christ's victory at the cross. I hope that helps!
And never stop seeking the Truth!

[–] meebly 13 years ago

stanevans16,

I can't necessarily say I agree with your reasoning, but neither do I find it disagreeable.

I still think, based on my own research and reasoning, that Judas Iscariot, while deeply flawed and apparently self-serving and self-loathing, remains today very misunderstood by Christianity. He strikes me as having been conflicted but still dedicated to fulfilling his purpose. That he committed suicide, if he did, in fact, do so, doesn't at all diminish, in my view, his service to a greater cause.

I don't believe Satan exists as an entity, but rather just as the manifestation of unchecked evil among mankind. So with this as a given, I don't believe in Satanic sacraments any more than I believe in divine ones.

Perhaps this comes across as merely the hubris of a non-believer, but as you implied, I seek the truth in all of its varied and complex forms, and I don't think for a minute I will have discovered even a small fraction of them on the day I close my eyes for good. I grew up being spoon-fed the Torah and select stories from the Old Testament, and even as a child I found much of it self-serving.

I don't believe that the Holy Scriptures, either testament, contain the unvarnished truth. I genuinely feel that, much as with today's endless litany of charlatans, those engaged in writing, rewriting, editing, translating and interpreting the unclear but still somehow inerrant word of the divine had ulterior motives in what they wrote and in how they parsed what others wrote.

That said, I genuinely appreciate your having given me something more to ponder on the question. No matter how vehemently I may ever disagree with anyone's point of view on a topic, the chance to have a rational discussion/debate, in this age of "Whoever shouts the loudest for the longest, wins," is one I eagerly embrace.

My sincerest thanks for your having taken the time to share your thoughts.

www.athousandlaxatives.blogspot.com

[–] rockmail 13 years ago

Your answer doesn't even follow the logic of the O.P.s question or the story.

If Satan was doing everything to derail the Sacrifice (And humankind's salvation) then Satan's plan would be to PREVENT Jesus Christ from ever being crucified.

Therefore, Judas wouldn't be an agent of Satan, but rather a pawn of God/Christ, as the O.P. states, in order to fulfill the ultimate plan. Also, Judas turning away and asking for forgiveness would simply help Judas, it would have no change in Christ's outcome.

So ultimately the O.P.s question stands with no good answer.

[–] rwsmith29456 13 years ago

Just as few notes. In Old Testament text it is clearly stated that foreign, uncircumcised kings served God's purpose by dominating and punishing the Jewish nations for their unfaithfulness. The Judas 'conflict' is much the same type thing in that something we think being 'bad' is used to fulfill God's purpose. Also, Joseph realized that his betrayal, slavery and imprisonment ultimately led to his taking care of his family and becoming a great leader.

[–] meebly 13 years ago

rwsmith29456,

I thank you, as well, for your thoughts. I'll definitely factor in your analogy.

www.athousandlaxatives.blogspot.com

[–] lexp2005 11 years ago

meebly,

You don't have to thank me for what I am going to recommend to you or anyone for that matter.If you were all to read "One Light" by Jon Whistler and published by
Light Pulsations, the world would be a much better place.The books can be purchased at any good book store or at www.lightpulsations.com

[–] janis_bananis 8 years ago

"In 1994 the consciousness of Zadore manifested to Jon Whistler and his two companions when they were working on a USGS site at Pallet Creek, in California. What occurred and what resulted from this incident was explained in Jon Whistler's book "One Light".

While recovering from his accident, Whistler, along with Rose Medlin, was urged by Zadore to travel to Australia and write and publish the book on their experience with Zadore and what it held for the consciousness of humanity.

Following the publication of One Light, they returned to the United States, and settled in Arizona.

On November 24th 1995, Zadore made the first inner contact with Whistler. Now there was no separation in consciousness between the Light of Zadore and the inner consciousness of Whistler, and the communication between both levels of consciousness was united."

Scientology wannabe bs woo.

[–] kenxben 13 years ago

I would put it this way: Any Almighty God would be able to use any event, no matter the intentions of its performer, to fulfill His Purposes. The questions, therefore, would be: Why did He choose to use such a dramatic event (the disciple's betrayal)? Further, why is it recorded in the scriptures? Or, in other words, what can we learn from it?

[–] Bobtheawesome 13 years ago

i always saw Judas as kind of a misguided, confused guy who didn't really know what he was doing. im catholic and one of our priests said the same thing in a sermon.

[–] bejasus 13 years ago

Just thought I'd add that the theological question you raise is actually at the center of a lot of the fractures within Christianity. Difficult to reconcile free will and the idea of an omniscient God (if God knows what you are going to do, then do you really have free will? if the future is not written, then are there limits to what God knows, etc.), or issues of sin and redemption, and the different approaches to those questions account for some of the deepest doctrinal divisions between different branches of Christianity. Judas really embodies those questions at their most acute, and so there is no simple answer to what you are asking.

Anyway, I'm no theologian, but just wanted to stress that there are various Christian answers to your question, and those answers explain some of the differences among the different faiths within the broad heading of Christianity. One source of the genius in JCS, I think, is the way it so deftly brings most of those thorny questions to the surface. Doesn't provide any definite answers or positions, but makes you think.

[–] rockmail 13 years ago

Yes, great answer. That's exactly where the entire premise of worshiping a creator who both directs destiny as well as supposedly giving you free will falls apart. It's like children caught doing naughty things who make up any story to avoid getting punished. The stories make perfect sense to the children, but in the light of adult logic and experience they instantly fall apart.

Whenever the issue of divine intervention vs. free will comes into flawed logic, believers fall back on the "mysterious ways" saw, and back away. That is both cowardly and disingenuous. Either stick to the whole story, or nothing at all.

Anyway, you raised the issue nicely, and there is NO answer, as mythology cannot be "explained" only blindly followed.

[–] billhaack 13 years ago

I think that some very good questions were brought up here, along with some misconceptions, misunderstanding, and some very, very similar questions that start out stating theory as fact - when it is impossible to find. Those that explain a lack of proof or fact, then go on to use logic incorrectly, starting with thoughts, feelings and/or experience - not fact.

The ones claiming the stories told of Jesus or any information pertaining faith, must 1st posit a non-fact to get there theory to work.

I forget who above used the incorrect word, but omnipotent is the correct word.
Either direction believer or non-believer, requires taking a leap of faith. Almost all science started out as belief, not fact. From belief it still has to move to theorem before becoming fact.

I believe that God gave us free will and he intercedes at his own decision and discretion.

Finally, the Jewish Rabbis and Elders were the ones that "tried" and found Jesus guilty. They then ask Pilate to carry out a death sentence, which he doesn't want to do. Although he doesn't necessarily believe that Christ was who he proclaimed to be. He even pleaded to the Jews to review and rethink their decision.

When his offer was rejected, he still told all present that he always allowed a single person from court be released. The crowd insisted on Barabbas the criminal being released - not Jesus.

There are many Christian advocate that the Bible is as is, the actual words of God. They are welcome to their belief. A number of Christians look at the Bible as a sort of road map for living a faithful life. At any case, all take making a "blind" leap of faith.

Hope that is helpful.

[–] mortalmatt 12 years ago

there is always someone who will choose evil. there is always someone who will choose to do good. God uses them both for His glory. if you're not seeking to live to please God, then you are choosing to do evil. in the same way that God provides you sunshine/rain whether you want it or not, He (your creator) will also use you whichever way you choose to live. choose wisely -- there will be a judgement day when it's too late. take care,

[–] mortalmatt 12 years ago

[–] mainsirene 12 years ago

Very true! I totally agree.

[–] crankycanadian 9 years ago

This always puzzles me. Why do we think that because God is omniscient, we have no free will? Just because he knows us so well and can see all time at once, how does that lead to him forcing us to do what he wants? As a parent, I know my child well enough to know how he will behave in certain situations, but that doesn't mean I make him behave that way. In fact I might spend all my energy and time to try to train him to behave differently under those circumstances.

I just saw the musical live this weekend and it was excellent. My interpretation of Judas is that he didn't think he was betraying Jesus, but that he truly didn't understand (as none of the disciples did) what Jesus was doing. He was expecting a fight, a rising up of power as many were to over thrown the Romans and set the Jews free. I think he "betrayed" Jesus because he thought that would force Jesus' hand. That it would make it impossible for Jesus not to step up and take action against the rulers and issue in the new world order that they understood would come with the Messiah.

I think Judas is no different from any of us really. Whatever our motives are, we all push ours forward, playing God, committing the original sin of pride. My way is better than God's, so I am not going to wait around for him to act.

Ain't no circus like an Andy Serkis

[–] lroy77 13 years ago

As I understand tradition (not everything was written down, and not everyone had access to the written word at the time), at one point Satan entered Judas's body, supposedly was at this point that Judas had "decided" to betray Jesus. Now, would Judas have betrayed Jesus anyway? I don't know.
It is true, that Jesus would've committed the ultimate sacrifice anyway and didn't need anybody's help...he's still the Savior and would've been even if he didn't die that particular way on that particular day. He could've died an old man in the carpenter's shop instead and still have been the Savior.

I would personally like you to investigate becoming a Christian-doesn't have to be Catholic (though that would be SO great), but at least do some soul searching and some true religious education.

[–] lexp2005 11 years ago

lroy77,

I recommend to YOU, or anyone reading this, investigate beyond becoming Christian,Hindu,Muslim,Buddhist etc,etc which are all man made religions and read the book "One Light" by Jon Whistler and published by Light Pulsations.Which can be purchased at any good book store or on line at www.lightpulsations.com

[–] zk333 12 years ago

I too am a non Christian and dare not, because I do not feel qualified to, to answer this, however I agree with your reasoning and have often wondered the same thing. There is a documentary which explores some of the very themes you raise which perhaps could be of interest to you: The Gospel of Judas http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0791307/ .

[–] Hmmingbrd1 12 years ago

I have asked this question for the past 50 years, why is Judas considered a traitor since without him, there would be no Jesus of today. I am so glad someone else thinks like this, and not just me. Everytime I ask the question, they just say he is a traitor but fail to understand what I mean. This has happened for years and no one will listen to me or even try to understand what I am trying to ask. I have since become an agnostic, due to many inconsistancies in Christianity, but this question was when I was still a Christian and no one could answer me. My other problem is why do we have to confess in a confessional, when we are told to pray to God every night. Why then do we have to go thru the priest, when he is suppose to hear us every night? Lots don't make sense when really thought about it. Also, the first time I got into trouble in church school was when I asked if Adam and Eve were cave people. Very good question for a third grader who just learned about caveman but knows that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. I was told that was a stupid question and don't question anything anymore. Took me many more years for me to finally leave the church.