Can someone explain to me about the 16 maternal witnesses?
Are those people real? And if so, who saw who get shot (Kennedy or Oswald)? What's their name? And lastly did they really die within the three years after those assassinations?
OBVIOUSLY
It's actually a big urban legend of the JFK assassination that a lot of people with connections died in mysterious ways shortly thereafter. Indeed some of them did die soon after the crime. Just a few that come to mind for me would be the likes of Lee Bowers (car crash) who mannned the railroad tower behind the stockade fence on the grassy knoll, William Whaley (car crash)the Dallas cab driver who drove Oswald back to his boarding house, and a prostitute who claimed that she rode to Dallas with some anti-Castro Cubans from Miami who planed to kill JFK. There certainly were others. I know that in the back of Jim Marrs book "Crossfire" there is a considerable list of folks with connections to the crime (many quite trival) who did not live a long time after. But there certainly were a host of people who more important involvement with the crime who went on to live long lives, and many still walk the earth today. Also quite interesting is the number of deaths in the mid-1970s as the House Select Committee on Assassinations was getting under way, particularly among Mafia chieftians such as Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.
I guess you have to draw your own conclusions where mere coincidental deaths take place and where there may have been something more than met the eye.
I see...
OBVIOUSLY
I think that I may have inadvertenly skipped over your question. I believe that the pictures of the "16 material witnesses" pictured at the end of the film were merely actors, not real people. While it is true that a fair number of people with some sort of connection to the case did die within some time afterwards, it is not politic to simply think that there were only 16 material witnesses to the Kennedy and Oswald killings and that all of them met a bad end. In truth, there were hundreds of witnesses to these crimes and their trappings. As I said, most of the folks did not have anything happen to them at all. And many of the ones who did can be labeled as merely coincidental deaths. But certainly there are some that are rather interesting when you consider the person and the timing of it (ie Mafia bosses in mid-70s).
Sorry if I failed to answer your question.
Oh, okay... Thank you. The ending of the movie though when they did show those witnesses, I seriously thought they were real. Because I did a little info hunting out of my curiousity if those people from the photographs did die or if they were real all. But thanks for the heads up, but still that ending gives me the chills.
OBVIOUSLY
Dear Egb;
Yes; they were real and died
like the the films end titles
display.
This was all fresh in the minds
of everyone in 1973 and debunks
ANY thoughts of Oswald acting
alone etc.
Today the memories are faded,
but no one really "buys" the
Warren Report, the 'single
bullit theory', or Oswald as
the "only" person involved.
That's just fiction.
Good question.
Happy trails to all...
but no one really "buys" the
Warren Report, the 'single
bullit theory', or Oswald as
the "only" person involved
I do.
As do all intelligent people who have spent even 5 minutes looking at the facts.
Even the leading conspiracy expert of the House Select committee now agrees as their finding was largely based on the "audio" experts, who, with the advent of digitizing, have been shown to be wrong.
The recording of the shots on the open mic of the motorcycle police officer conclusively shows there were only 3 shots.
Hi lufts,
You may want to get a hold of: "On Trial; Lee Harvey Oswald," with Vincent Bugliosi (bull YO see) and Gerry Spence (1986).
This is a 5 hr moot, unrehearsed trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, where original evidence and witnesses are introduced. Try your local library or, Movies Unlimited.com.
Best.
Gentlemen;
This has nothing to do with
the OP's topic.
-----
However; I'll assist you anyway.
Yes: The HSCA stated it 'could'
have been a 'conspiracy' due to
the audio evidence, in the 70s.
Yes; An FBI 'spokesperson' said
they found it to be wrong etc.
This was a 'spokesperson' and NO
proof was ever presented etc.
Yes; It has been 'digitized' by a
Sound Enginering Lab. in the UK
and their findings (multi weapons
fired) was submitted to the/our
American Academy of Forensic Science
here, the first part of 2009.
It's my understanding that their
attempting to 'sync' it to the Z-
Film as It's been 'digitized as well.
-------
Until then; good luck with your studies.
Happy trails to all...
Nope, I believe the people shown in the pictures are the actual so-called "mysteriously dead" witnesses. As others have said, many, many witnesses who gave testimony that was contrary to the Warren Commission are alive and kicking.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
[deleted]
If there was a conspiracy it was probably a smalltime affair involving Oswald, Ruby, the Dallas mob (there was Cosa Nostra in Dallas, though little more than a satellite of the New Orleans mafia), and a few rogue elements of the Dallas PD. I don't see a CIA or Army Intelligence presence.
Then again, I doubt if we'll ever know for sure.
Dear Tracy;
Before the Warren Report was released
15 (+) witneses were mudered. The 'key'
one was CD Jackson, who owned the 'Z-Film'
and one of the few to see it "unaltered".
http://whatreallyhappened.com
"Big Money"/international banking, were
behind the JFK murder & making sure that
no one ever learned the "full story" of
it all.
The 'Mafia', Castro, Oswald/Ruby, LBJ, CIA;
their all just "misdirection" to keep the
public guessing about it is all.
To "keep up" on the latest info & facts,
visit this site.
http://www.ctka.net
Happy trails to all...
Horsepoop. This crap about the Zapruder film being "altered" is just that, crap. I have a digitized copy of the Zapruder film and compared it with the Nix film, The Moorman photo, the Muchmore film and more and there is NO evidence that the Zapurder film has been "altered", that is just bullsh!t.
Chuck Colson puts it better than anyone else. He says there was a *small* handful of people that knew the truth about Watergate, and that small handful couldn't keep the secret. Now, people like videojohn want people to believe that you had "Big Money", the government, the mafia, LBJ, the CIA, you name it, all of them knowing and they're able to keep the secret. Yeah, right.
There may have been a conspiracy, very much like what tracyfigueira said, but this nonsense about "Big Money" and all that crap is just that... crap.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Dear Blade;
You should know/understand
that your "digitized copy"
came from who's 'master'??
I have't seen it in years
but frame 313 is inhaced to
alter the blood spatter and
some frames are missing in
the area of frame 340, as I
recall.
You can see that, when the
Limo driver's head jerks.
Later; you see Jacki on the
deck lid F-375 trying to get
part of JFK's skull.
-------
Your correct about "Watergate".
That was a government plan that
went array & not a good parallel.
-------
The "capitalization" of Vietnam
was worth over a trillion to the
'international banking cartel',
in 1962 dollars.
These folks reaped the benefit of
Japan (45), Formosa (49), Korea
(53) and behind our "advising"
the French in Vietnam in 1954.
-------
The whole "lone gunman" theory was
the bigest hoax of that era and why
all those were killed. Each in some
way disproved some part of it.
Happy trails to all...
First of all, I have examined the film — frame by frame by frame — and there are no frames missing. In point-of-fact they specifically left in damaged frames to avoid that accusation. There is no "enhancement" in any of the frames. I have blown those frames up to the pixel level and examined every portion and there is no tampering. Many experts have done the analysis on the Zapruder film and they all agree, it is genuine.
Jackie did *not* climb to the back of the limousine to get a portion of JFK's skull. She climbed onto the back of the limo because she was terrified and was trying to get out of there, and fast. Connoley was screaming "they'll going to kill us all" and when JFK's head exploded Jackie actually put both of her hands on his head to push so she could get the heck out of there.
The bottom line is this, there is NO way that such a secret could have been kept by that many people all these years. Again, I point you to the Watergate scandal and all that brought down Nixon. Only a very few people knew about that, all loyal to Nixon and yet they couldn't keep the secret. The only people that could keep a secret like that is the mob.
There was a lone gunman, it was Oswald, but he probably wasn't acting alone. I believe it was probably a mafia plot, but one that was started by some boss *not* with the sanction of the entire organization. It was probably Giancana and Ruby with help from Dave Ferrie and Clay Shaw, with Oswald as the patsy. However, NO secret service or government people were involved. If you have any notion of government service (and I have family that are civil servants and in the military) you would understand how impossible a scheme like that would be. It could never be covered up, again look at Watergate and how that was exposed. The bottom line is, most people in government service are decent people, they're not going to go along with assassinating a *President*! The Mob, however, is full of psychopaths and career, pathological liars. THEY could keep a secret, the government people couldn't. It's that simple. Something that big is going to get out.
People change, they feel remorse, they want to clear their conscience. Killing a President is HUGE, it is not like deposing a dictator or running some black op in South America. Someone, somewhere would have talked. Only an organization of psychos and liars could keep that secret - an organization like the Mafia. Not a "banking cartel", not the government, the Mafia and the Mafia alone.
I understand why people need there to be a government conspiracy, because we don't want to believe that some lousy loser like Oswald could kill our beloved President. We want someone to blame and we want that someone to be powerful, smart and organized. To think that a couple mobsters and a commie sympathizer like Oswald robbed us of our President is just too painful to consider.
The very, very sad part is this... LBJ, the Secret Service and many others have been accused, vilified and smeared for decades. Men that would never have done ANYTHING like that have been constantly and continually attacked and falsely accused of murdering a President. Think about that when you hurl those accusations.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Dear Blade;
Your 'digitized' version came
from another 'digital master'
then. Think about it.
I view it in the 70s and there
was a portion where you could
see the driver's head jerk due
to missing frames. There was
F-313 event too.
So youve been 'hoodwinked' on
that portion of it etc.
----------
As far as Oswald being the
"lone gunman". Well that's
the bigest hoax of that era.
In fact; he was exculpated
that aftenoon by the Dallas
PD.
How you say?? It's quite
simple Sir. He was on the
second floor the whole time
and this was verified by
several witnesses, one a
Police Officer. Later the
forensic tests proved he
hadn't discharged a firearm
that day.
Knowing this; they were about
to expand their investigation
and the Feds blocked it.
You can scroll back & get the
links to the Websites to see
the truth of all this too.
These arn't "kooks" or 'loons'
but distinguished experts in
their fields.
Happy trails to all...
I viewed it in the 70s too, and there is no anomaly in the film. I have a copy of the Zapruder film from the 70s (one of the bootlegs that Garrison had circulated among campuses) and I have compared the two films... they are identical. So, you have only "hoodwinked" yourself.
Moreover, the situation is this, I have examined the digital version and there are NO "artifacts" that suggest tampering. The technology that existed at that time to alter photographs, or film, leave artifacts that can be detected at the pixel level (quite easily, in fact). There are none on the Zapruder film. Also, I have seen the photographic research using the Moorman photo, the Nix film and other films and photos that are compared to the Zapruder film, and they suppor *conclusively* that the Zapruder film is authentic. None of your smokescreen will hide that. So again, you are hoodwinking yourself. Actually what you are doing is lying to yourself, because you NEED there to be a conspiracy.
I was alive when JFK was murdered, I don't remember it because I was too young, but I grew up in the wake of his assassination, and I have studied every scrap of evidence that has been released over the years. I've read the conspiracy books (and even scanned most of them to convert them to .pdfs for research purposes).
I encourage you to read Josiah Thompson's stinging critique of Fetzer's unscholarly work, "The Great Zapruder Film Hoax", which can be found here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~joejd/jfk/zaphoax/thompson-proof.html
In case you think I'm supporting a "Lone Gunman" theorist, think again, Josiah references the work by Dr. Donald Thomas, Dr. Michael Stroscio and Drs. Art Snyder and Erik Randich who are all similar to Josiah as conspiracy supporters, subscribing to the notion of multiple gunman on the day of the assassination, something I disagree with.
The "research" you reference is not scholarly, it is just the same old hackneyed garbage that has been propped up for decades now. I encourage you to look into the sources Josiah mentions so you can reference a better class of conspiracy theorists, because yours are sorely lacking.
It's total garbage what you are saying about the Dallas PD "exculpating" Oswald. That is simply NOT true. Many witnesses reported Oswald running down stairs of the depository. That is nonsense.
Also, you are simply lying. Oswald WAS given a paraffin test and tested POSITIVE for firing a gun. Sorry, that is simply a LIE. If you're going to out-and-out lie, I'll not debate this with you, sir. They tested his hands and his cheek, and his hands (both of them) tested positive, indicating he had fired a gun. His cheek did not, but that is of no consequence, because independent labs conducted experiments and concluded that many, many times when a person fires a rifle, there is no evidence of residue on the cheek. So, out the window goes your lies and hogwash.
I can tell from your assertions that you have read "The JFK Assassination: The Facts and the Theories", by Oglesby; and/or "Rush to Judgment" by Lane; and/or "Crossfire" by Marrs. Again, shoddy materials. Have a look here, to see the rebuttal to their nonsense (and yours):
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm
No "Feds" ever blocked any investigation, again you are making things up. I challenge you to provide proof.
Yes, Videojohn, these are "kooks and loons" and if you keep lying, you might end up being classified in the same category.
Videojohn seems to be a lost cause, but for others who may be reading this, I encourage you to visit the following website:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/
It is *exhaustive* in its scope and breadth of information provided there. If you want to learn about the assassination, this is the place to start.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Dear Blade;
As a student of John McAdams
It's easy to see how your the
one lacking in realistic facts.
You may believe (what you will)
about the "Z-film" as I can't see
what you think you have etc.
C D Jackson was murdered to keep
the truth of It's alteration by
the FBI quiet.
It was shown to thousands at the
orginal TSBD musueum. Since then
another Warren Comm. supporter is
running it (Gary Mack) so what you
have is a further alteration, only
a 'digital' version.
--------
Oswald was no longer a viable suspect
after they proved him NOT to be a
'shooter' that aftenoon. NO ONE is
"lying", you have been 'conned' into
mis-believing what events occured.
His placement in the TSBD was proven
to be other than the 6th floor by
several witnesses and the forensic
ttests verfied this "exculpating"
him etc.
There were 'trace' indicators of
nitrate on his hands, proving he
handled a uncleaned handgun, (his)
NOT firing/discharging one, Sir.
These 'traces' could have come from
Newspapers too, which Oswald used
at work.
When the Dallas PD began to expand
their investigation, is when the
Feds (politically) blocked things.
NO ONE heard anyone going down the
stairs either/another BS 'con job',
someone has 'sold' you on.
--------------
The propaganda of McAdams is funded by
the Feds, to promote the fiction of
the Warren Commission to his students.
It's "exhaustive" all right, but amounts
to the "Hogwash" your trying to sell.
Happy trails to all...
You can say what you want about McAdams, but he blows away any of the garbage, hackneyed "experts" you can drum up, and at least he doesn't lie.
I *do* believe what I believe about the Zapruder film because I have been a student of the film for decades now. Can you say that you have examined every frame at the pixel level? Huh? Can you say that you've done geometric analysis of it, contrasting with the Muchmore film, the Moorman photos and Nix film? Can you? No. What you do is read garbage and spout trash.
C.D. Jackson "Life" magazine's senior Vice President (who authorized the purchase of the Zapruder film) died of a HEART ATTACK a couple of years after the assassination. No one "murdered" C.D. Jackson.
And with that lie, I'm done. You aren't interested in stating facts and discussing them, you are only interested in making up lies to support your own version of events.
"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus
Dear "Blade";
No one said McAdams is lying, Sir.
He just promotes the government's
fiction via the Warren Commission
"report" etc.
Politics is "politics" and propaganda
is "propaganda", not "garbage/trash".
----------
CD Jackson WAS murdered in September
of 1964, just prior to the WCR being
issued, not 2 years after 11-63.
-----------
Your the one with the facts 'mixed up'
I'm afraid. Either way; you have only
studied one side of this issue.
If Oswald acted alone; then who/why
were the 15+ people killed?? How
could LHO done that from the grave??
Good luck with your studies.
Happy trails to all...
Carlos Marcello of New Orleans was the one Mafia boss whose office was never bugged by the FBI. He had more reason than anyone to want to see the Kennedys dead, since he was subjected to a brutal--and illegal--deportation to Guatemala by FBI agents (acting under Bobby Kennedy's orders) who kidnapped him and dropped him off in a Guatemalan jungle. (He was born in Tunisia but changed his birth certificate to read Guatemala so if THEY did deport him he wouldn't have to go that far).
Marcello survived an arduous trek through the Guatemalan jungle to El Salvador, where he took the next flight back to the States. The Feds tried to prosecute him for falsifying his birth certificate, but ironically he was acquitted by a New Orleans jury--on November 22, 1963!
As the oldest Mafia family in the States, the New Orleans mob had some unusual privileges and could take action without approval from the national syndicate "commission." Dallas was within the New Orleans mob's sphere of influence; Joseph Campisi, owner of a popular Dallas Italian restaurant (still in business, by the way) was later identified as one of the highest-ranking members of the Louisiana mob.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
shareDear Tracy;
Your welcome, lady.
The 'Mafia' could have had a small
role in the planning (behind the scene)
but; most of their involvement was
'after the fact' to gain favor with
LBJ (if even then). No one can relly
say for sure.
Possibly why so many documents are
still sealed/'classified' etc.
-------
International 'big money' concerns
were the ones truly behing the whole
murder scheme.
They carried it out and the government
made Oswald the 'fall guy'. The rest
is just "history".
Happy trails to all...
Can someone explain to me about the 16 maternal witnesses?
Yeah very "maternal" indeed