MovieChat Forums > Slaughterhouse-Five (1972) Discussion > Was it criminal to bomb Dresden? Yes but...

Was it criminal to bomb Dresden? Yes but...


...who started the war? Nazi Germany. Who pushed this war into a genocidal nightmare? It wasn't Mr. Churchill and much less RAF Field Marshall "Bomber" Harris. It was a guy named Adolf Hitler. And what was the reaction of Hitler when Allies were firebombing Nazi Germany? He didn't care. According to Albert Speer [read his "Inside the Third Reich" and "Spandau Diaries"] Hitler wasn't interested in what was happening around him, was totally indifferent to the firebombings, and even went as far to blame and curse the German population for the defeat. You can also read that in many other books of World War II ["The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan, "The Fall of Berlin" by Anthony Bevor and so many more]. Even Dr. Goebbels himself admitted blame for the tragedy. At least he was more "realistic". So let us stop this blaming the Allies for this tragedy. Much I wish it had never happened. But those who start wars of aggressions should not complain when the other side lower itself into the same brutality.
P.S.: Have you also forgotten the millions Nazi Germans killed in Eastern Europe, including tens of millions of Russians civilians and military personel? And, finally, Nazi Germans murdered 6 millions Jews. And is not a case "loving Jews" [I myself don't like them much but I know there are good people among them, not much] but a sense of justice and peace to all of us humans. Let us stop crying over the destruction of Dresden in 1945.

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Two wrongs make it right. Right.



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I didn't create evilness of us humans. We humans are famous for having a "dark side".

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I wasn't expecting you'd be a root of evil. :)

Anyway, the bombing of Dresden was a pure act of revenge. I may lament those futile lost of lives as well as any other atrocity even if I understand the anger behind it.


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I don't like it myself. But a guy named Adolf Hitler asked for it.

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Yes, he did. That is why one can feel sorry for children of Dresden.

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The German kids have been dead for 67 years. Have we learned to live in peace to prevent more dead kids of any nationality? I doubt it.

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No, we haven't. I don't quite get your point.



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You gave me the answer.

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So, by that logic, if your father kills mine, I can rape and kill your mother and sister? And I guess you agree that 9/11 and many terrorist acts were worthwhile and justified acts of aggression in response to the US government's own actions and the perpetuation of violence in those countries? Nagasaki and Hiroshima weren't overkill and the brutal destruction of Constantinople was justified, as was Ghangis Khan's sadistic murder of over 4 million? Should the third world, suffering due to first world needs and policies, aim for a role reversal so in the future they can hope to crap on us first worlders? Need more examples? I'm certain your logic would seem foolish if applied to many historical examples.
When is revenge killing and "lowering oneself" right and who determines the circumstances and sets the bar for its appropriateness? Who has the right to be judge and jury and when is a criminal action no longer criminal, but fair?
Understanding the reasons for vile actions does not excuse them. Case in point: we understand why most pedophiles are the way they are--their behaviour is usually rooted in childhood abuse--but there's no reason why we should "stop crying over the destruction" of an innocent victim and be content with blaming the abusive father, and let's forget about all that, raping that child was justified... not if we hope to learn, heal, and progress away from such behaviour.
An unquestioned, vindicated application of "an eye for an eye" (which is a Rabbinic concept, by the way) tends to be supported by the weak-minded; usually by individuals who don't like to delve into the deeper questions of moral and ethics and have absolutely no real clue what these terms really imply other than at a superficial level, which is why they're content with such vapid reasoning as what you put forth, jsrrtzjr.
It's clear that you're not too keen on thinking and examining such topics adequately, since, as you've clearly stated on another one of your posts, you find modern philosophy and literature to be utterly useless. Too bad, though you shouldn't be proud of such dim-witted reasoning.
The topic of "retribution" is an interesting one that has been examined in depth by intellectuals and it's not a black-or-white issue akin to your simplistic take. Simone de Beauvoir, Thomas Hobbes, Sartre, Murray Rothbard, Walter Block and many others--some having an immediate life experience, i.e. were in Europe during WWII--have examined the question in its full scope. You need to expand your mind before you post such a trite judgement and pretend to understand what you're talking about.

Further, given your racist comment regarding Jews and there being some good Jews though not many, how far would you have needed to be pushed to join the Nazis had you found yourself in that period under the same circumstances? Probably not far at all, it seems.

People NEED to continue questioning the ethics of Dresden and similar events and no one should pay any attention to your simple-mindedness.

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Wonder what you would have told Sir Winston Churchill if you had been around Europe in the early 1940s? And I can see your ignorance of Nazi Germany and World War II is unbelievable. The German Nazis were no "nice guys". And I doubt Nazis would ever have accepted me. My ancestors were Mediterranean, from Spain. I am not "Aryan" enough. And Jews? I read of Asians and Africans trying to convert into Judaism, and ended up living in a hell after converting. And look how they defend Israel after firebombing Gaza in 2009. They have disappointed me since I had a certain respect for them way back in the 1970s. Not any longer. I despise them now. Guess, Jews aren't that "innocent" enough as some idiots think.

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Wow, you are the biggest Nazi I've seen in these boards. You have to be American. They are mostly all ignorant, revengeful and war-crazy.

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It was as criminal as any warlike act. Was it more criminal than some? Perhaps, but the choice at the time was inaccurate bombing or no bombing. Inaccurate bombing got more accurate during the war, did a lot to constrain the German war economy and finished the killing sooner than putting the resources into artillery or machine-guns. Dresden was a relatively accurate bomb attack, which did a lot of damage to industries important to the German war effort, as well as butchering a lot of people. You couldn't have one without the other.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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It was as criminal as any warlike act. Was it more criminal than some? Perhaps...


Despite whether or not I agreed with what came next, I already had more respect for your view than the OP’s. At the very least you frame your argument in a manner that suggests questionable accountability that isn’t justified by “He hit me first, mommy!”
It’s a complex issue, and I certainly don’t have the answer.

The widely-accepted justification for Dresden is its industrial targets; indeed, this is what makes it an interesting case, whereas bombing just innocent villagers would be a no brainer. However, the results of that bombing campaign and information that surfaced should force anyone to question the validity of that motivation. Also, and though not the first such war, the widespread occurrence of such events and the extreme indifference for collateral damage is what marks WWII as THE definition of the Total War type of warfare, wherein little difference exists between military and civilian and all is justified to bring an enemy to its knees.
The results of WWII and the comparison point offered by the Nazis, and then, once it surfaced, the Russians, created a shift in Western consciousness, which became more permissive of the Total War mindset as long as it could be justified as a necessary means to a bigger threat.
Learning from that, from the guerilla nature of the Viet Cong to justify actions in the Vietnam war and the wholesale bombings in Cambodia to Bush’s WMD’s to thousands of indiscriminate drones, western media gives us the Evil “communists” and Satan’s “terrorists” spiel to excuse what should be considered criminal actions by most standards, but the reality... Lots of ethical paths and potholes to explore and question from that outlook, and its “appropriateness” is not a query that should be easily dismissed.

Further, and though it can be argued, Dresden was not a defining moment in ending the war with Germany, IMO. The result wasn’t what was hoped, and we westerners seems to forget the eastern front and that really, it can be argued that no side “won” the war, but that Hitler defeated himself through Operation Barbarossa.

Kurt Vonnegut, who wrote the book the film is based on, was actually an (American) p.o.w. in Dresden at the time and certainly his anti-war stance is clear, but it’s based on emotions, which makes absolute sense but renders such a view easy to dismiss as bleeding-heart rationalization, hence why an honest examination of the moral questions offered by such an event becomes an important activity and tether.

Cheers.

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What was the PURPOSE of bombing Dresden? It was revenge, plain and simple.

The Holocaust where millions of Jews were put into forced labour camps and systematically murdered is not relevant to the Dresden bombings. People in Britain did not know that was happening.

And let's not forget that the Jews being murdered were German! It would hardly make sense to argue that, because Hitler is murdering German civilians we are justified in murdering German civilians too, would it?

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[deleted]

there is no "but". Very cowardice act that made the "allied troops" look no better than Nazis! A major war crime.

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Yes Hitler and his regime were evil. What did bombing Dresden do to stop them?

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It did nothing to stop them. But at that time (during WWII), there was still a belief that enough carnage rained down on an opposing enemy's home territory would force them to capitulate. The Nazis, however, had decided to fight a war that was all or nothing. When had that ever occurred before as the intention of a enemy combatant without surrending when the devestation threatened total annihilation?

It's similar to the same arguments that say the 2 atomic bombs should never have been dropped on Japan. Although in that case, they seemed to have achieved their desired purpose.




Almost every IMDb Message Board has that one clown who thinks he/she is the moderator of it.

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In WW2 both sides committed war crimes. Both sides committed atrocities. There are no "good guys". That is comic book stuff. But the historical record is clear. It was Hitler who offered to stop the bombing of civilians in 1940 and restrict aerial attacks to military targets and factories producing armaments. This is confirmed by the 1944 book Bombing Vindicated which was published in Britain by air ministry official J M Spaight -
www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2015/volume_7/number_1/bombing_vindicated.php
It was Churchill who refused this humanitarian gesture. He thought he could win the war with air attacks based on the Lindemann Plan which called for as many German civilians to be killed as possible -
http://whale.to/b/lindemann_h.html
http://whale.to/b/kollerstrom.html
www.heretical.com/miscellx/blitz.html
This culminated in the raid on Dresden which is covered in the documentary HELLSTORM which is about war crimes against the Germans -
www.hellstormdocumentary.com

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KV was just being a strident liberal on his moping about that bombing.

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