MovieChat Forums > Jeremiah Johnson (1972) Discussion > One thing I don't agree with:

One thing I don't agree with:


Johnson goes up into the mountains to escape the world he didn't like down below. Just when he begins caring about something again (his Indian wife and the boy) the US Cavalry (or whoever they are) come calling and ask him to guide them through Crow lands to save some people he doesn't know because they're "good Christian folk." And Johnson up and splits just like that knowing for damn sure that it will put the two people he cares about in danger? No way. I know it makes for a more interesting movie, but there's no way a guy like Johnson does that. He says, "Good luck and good riddance. I'm done with the world down below."

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I don't think he figured he was putting his newly adopted family in danger though - he didn't figure on them being attacked. At this point of the movie, the Indians weren't after Jeremiah or his family.

It wasn't until they crossed the sacred Indian burial ground that stuff hit the fan.

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Well then I don't think he would have crossed the sacred burial ground, especially knowing it would put him and his family in danger. At that point he should have said goodbye. He owed nothing to those soldiers and went up into the mountains to escape just those type of people. It made no sense.

But I still love Jeremiah Johnson. He's the best.

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That's all very easy to say, but I don't think the choice is anything like as easy you're asserting. Johnson knows the mountains, and he knows that the settlers are stuck in a high mountain pass with winter coming on and no food. This is DANGEROUS (ever hear of the Donner Party?) Even if he can persuade the army to take the longer route, the delay means there's a good chance that some of the stranded party will die of cold and hunger before they can be reached. It's all well and good to say "well I don't owe you anything, you're on your own," but you have to live with yourself after. Refusing to help would have meant letting people die. Would you find it so easy to say that, knowing that people will die that you could have helped?

And he also knew that the soldiers were determined to go on anyway. If that happened, there's a good chance he'd still draw the Crow's wrath anyway, since they'd know he led he soldiers off in the first place -- they might not have cared or even realized that he parted with them before entering the burial ground. And he also knows that letting the soldiers go on their own will, again, almost certainly result in deaths. The rescue party will probably not be able to find the settlers in time, and may even become lost itself.

He obviously knew the Crow would be offended by the violation of their burial ground, but he probably didn't realize just how offended. He doubtless hoped they'd be reasonable, that he could make them understand the desperate need, and he'd somehow be able to make amends. And he led the soldiers through because he felt he had a moral obligation to assist in bringing aid to people who would certainly die without rescue. You do understand what a moral obligation is, don't you?

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I wouldn't have left my wife and son at any cost. At the worst I would have taken them with me. But that's just the way I live.

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Who packs their wife and kid with them everywhere they go? When John Q. Public goes to work every morning, do you suppose he does it with his wife and child in tow? Do firemen respond to alarms with the family along? Do rescue workers bring wives and small children with them looking for stranded hikers? Do soldiers deploy to combat zones with their loved ones?

Why would he take his wife and the boy on a long, arduous, cold, trek deep into a high mountain pass in winter, with all the hazards that entails, instead of leaving them in their nice, warm cabin with shelter and plenty of food. He had no reason when he left to suppose they wouldn't be safer there. And when he had to take the soldiers through the burial ground, he hardly had time to return for them, nor did he imagine just how brutal a revenge the Crow would take.

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Darren-oconnor has a stick up his butt! Don't blame the other posters here. Chill out! Take a breather.

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And you have the mentality of an ignorant, stupid little child, if the use of logic and reason makes you regard someone as having "a stick up his butt."

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Him's got himself all upset. He can dish it out but when it's his turn he gets all red faced and puffy. Sorry I ruined your day....actually I'm not sorry. Get over it.

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And you're an ignorant, stupid little child. Get over it.

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While I agree with your post to an extent, the lesser of two evils here is obviously the cold, arduous journey. The spiel about taking them to work, or your analogy, doesn't work because we live in the modern world, well most of us do anyway, not the old west or SW territory where murderous folk not only live, but are also the rule rather than the exception to it.

I think considering some of the events of the movie, he may have had reasons to suspect they might be in danger anyway. Has there ever been any official explanation given for the murders other than crossing the burial ground? Even if this is the reason (which I think most of us agree on), didn't he know that he was headed that way when he took the rescue party out there? I realize the events are what drives the story, so it's sort of pointless to argue over... but I agree with the OP (detrime) in this case, especially given the time and setting of the story.


Also kudos for mentioning the Donner Party, I thought of that specifically as the inspiration for this part of the movie when I first watched it.

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I know this is a stale thread, but I'll reply anyway since I just saw this for the first time last night.

First off, he had to leave his family every once in a while to trap and hunt. That was nothing new.

He was obviously reluctant to do so, but he felt an obligation to do so. After all, there were good people's lives at stake, not to mention there probably was a little pressure when the US Cavalry shows up at your door and tells you to help.

He was also reluctant to go through the sacred funeral ground. At that point, he should have refused and told them if they wanted to they could take their chances, but he did say they'd never make it without him. I'm not sure why that made sense since the Cavalry had already found him and could obviously traverse mountain passes and JJ himself obviously didn't know where to go since he picked a Crow funeral ground to traverse.

Remember he didn't want to make enemies with the Indians even though he had some prejudice at first against them. He respected them and just wanted to be left alone, but the trapper was trapped into first a kid who wasn't his and then a marriage he didn't want and then fell in love with both of them.

But I digress and don't want to rehash the whole movie.

If he had refused to lead the cavalry through the Crow's sacred ground there wouldn't have been any movie at all.

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"You do understand what a moral obligation is, don't you?"

i think the point the OP (detrime) is making is that a man like Johnson leave "moral obligation" to society behind them. once in the mountains its just you against nature, the elements and your enemies.

the case could be made that "moral obligation" killed the boy and woman and not the Crow. after all, the Crow had a moral obligation to avenge sacred burial ground trespassers.

"only one food for the rest of my life? That's easy, cherry-flavored Pez. No question about it."

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its best not to be too moral. you cheat yourself out of too much life. aim above morality. if you apply that to life then you are bound to live it fully. - Harold and Maude

"only one food for the rest of my life? That's easy, cherry-flavored Pez. No question about it."

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I saw it as Johnson still had a lot to learn about being a mountain man.
There is a total different set of rules up there. He just happen to learn the hard way about trespassing. And he realized it at the meeting of the stranded people. He got a worried look and took off riding home.

It was just one of those things that kept him alive --- after all the attempts on his life. A lesson hard learned.




When a man assumes a public trust, he should consider himself as public property - Thomas Jefferson

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A good post resorts to a personal attack.

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When you tell everyone that someone "has a stick up his butt", you really have no right at all to be either surprised or offended when that someone fires back -- after all, you drew that fire with a completely gratuitous and completely unprovoked shot of your own.

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...butt you really should remove that stick! It's affecting your composure.

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Grow up little boy. Leave the discussion to the grown ups who have more than infantile little insults to contribute.

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..something like your smart ass remark to the op? Please stop stalking this thread and console yourself that it appears the stick is stuck. Live with it.

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I repeat, grow up you pathetic little troll. Your insults are neither original nor clever. They even lack balls, since it's easy to be provocative behind the safety and anonymity of a keyboard. You're just another $#!%-talking internet tough guy.

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He was very reluctant to guide them. Maybe he knew he would most likely run into Indians but didn't count on having to cross the burial ground. He was done with the world below but this was a rescue mission and he couldn't refuse.

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I think at that point in time talking again in English, having his 'moral compass' challenged again etc., etc was a reminder of life as it had been but he had forgot about. Like reuniting with an 'ex' whos presence and the passage of time, has made you forget about 'the bad times'. Remember how he seemed to get a kick finding his words and 'exercising' what he had left of his old communication skills ? No doubt the semblance of 'family' got him thinking a little different and the soldiers were telling him that if he refused to help, others families were going to die.Maybe he thought to himself, what if his new family was stranded, how would he like to hear that another, who could have saved them, refused to ? He paused before relenting and agreeing to go - I imagined that these were the thoughts he was considering during that pause.
Just my 2 cents...

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That was my one problem with the film too. Leaving them there and then going through the sacred burial ground was just asking for trouble. very stupid and he should have known better by that time. And all just to show some inept army men how to get somewhere? Couldn't he have just drawn them a map?

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Maybe he just needed to get out of the cabin; he'd been couped up in it with the wife and kid for months. He says right out that he's pleased to hear the English language again. On the other hand, knowing the mountains as he does, he had to realize the only feasible route was through the burial ground, so he accepted the risk to his family at the start. Which begs another question: why did the Crows put their burial ground in the high pass - maybe they used the unavoidable trespassing as an excuse for launching raids?

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More likely they put it there so that it would NOT be trespassed upon.

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But, it's a pass through the mountains, in fact, the only pass for a great distance, which is the reason Johnson has to take the party through it. The Crows would have known that, so if they wanted to set up a sacred place, why put it there when they could more easily put it in a much less accessible and less travelled location? Of course, what we are really puzzling over here is simply a plot device - without it, the Crows have no motive for killing Johnson's family. But, that's the inherent silliness of it; why not just have a drunken or reckless war party kill his kin for no particular reason other than he is away when they stop by? On the other hand, perhaps Milius wanted to provide a rationale for the murders that would, from his perspective, make the Crows' action justifiable on religious grounds....geez.

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...why not just have a drunken or reckless war party kill his kin for no particular reason other than he is away when they stop by?


As supposedly happened with Liver-Eatin Johnston the real life character JJ was based upon.

I really don't have a problem with any thing that happened.

He originally was very reluctant to go with the cavalry detail, but was on good terms with the Crow, so wouldn't feel that Swan and the boy were in any danger.

He goes and advises them to detour 20 miles to the next pass.

They refuse and he leads them through knowing that even if he hadn't he may have been blamed any way.

He was caught between a rock and a hard place.

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You're right. And if you watch the scene again when the cavalry comes to his cabin, it's obvious that they've been looking around for him for sometime (probably with all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop), and even knew about his history with the Flatheads and the Crow. So there is no way the Crow wouldn't have known that Johnson had been involved somehow, even if he refused to go through the burial ground and had turned back early.

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He left them as he left them many times before going for buffalo hunting trips etc. The trip guiding those soldiers (or whatever they were) was but a few days, less than a week it seemed (judging from his beard).

Truth is, not to help these "people he doesn't know" would have been out of character.

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What I found strange was what the hell were those US Cavalry doing way up there to begin with? Seemed to be more of a plot device to create the conflict with the Crow and move the story towards its more tragic phase. I also think Jeremiah would have had more sense of the Crow as he traded with them and knew their ways. Again, I still don't understand the geographic reality of why the Cavalry needed to go thru Crow land to a place they already know exists. Why not just use the route you used before?

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