MovieChat Forums > Cabaret (1972) Discussion > This film is to BLAME for the DEATH of t...

This film is to BLAME for the DEATH of the MUSICAL genre.


Don't get me wrong, CABARET is a sensational musical film, but there's a myth going around that films like MAME and LOST HORIZON put an end to the musical as a genre. It was actually CABARET. While I am in agreement of some of the criticism of MAME and while LOST HORIZON did not live up to the memory of the original in the eyes of many people, they are not to blame for the death of the musical as a genre. The blame really belongs with CABARET. After Cabaret it was no longer acceptable for characters to "break out" into song to express an emotion in the traditional sense. Songs had to be presented realistically on a stage or performed for a "reason". If CABARET had never been made, things might have been different.

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Yours is as valid a theory as any, but I don't suppose there's any way to verify it one way or the other. Mine is that nothing was specifically to "blame" for the "death" of musicals. Tastes change, genres go in and out of fashion and often just peter out on their own. But the subsequent success of something like CHICAGO illustrates that not only is the genre not really dead, but that audiences will still accept the time-honored convention of bursting into song anywhere, any time.

CABARET was certainly not the first film to present all its numbers in believable contexts. The 1954 A STAR IS BORN does so, yet there were quite a few successful "traditional" musicals after it. It did happen to come along, however, as what many think of as the musicals' "golden age" (roughly 1928 - 1958) was coming to a close.



Poe! You are...avenged!

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Possible theory, but most musicals were already failing from 1969 on.

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But the subsequent success of something like CHICAGO illustrates that not only is the genre not really dead, but that audiences will still accept the time-honored convention of bursting into song anywhere, any time.


Have you seen Chicago? The characters don't suddenly burst into song. With the exception of the opening ("All That Jazz") and closing ("Nowadays"/"Honey Hot Rag") numbers -- which are performed as actual cabaret acts -- all the songs take place in Roxie's head. The powers that be were afraid to do a traditional musical, so they chose this conceit to explain why the characters would sing and dance. Thus, all the songs that didn't fit this criteria (i.e. from Roxie's POV) were cut; in fact, half the score ended up being eliminated as a result, and the character of Velma, who is co-lead on stage, was reduced to being a supporting character.

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It's been quite some time since I saw "Chicago," so my recollection of it is admittedly sketchy, although even two numbers seem to indicate that audiences won't reject a musical employing the convention. But perhaps there are others that are better examples; "Moulin Rouge," "Mamma Mia" or "Les Miserables," for instance.


Poe! You are...avenged!

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You're saying that a great musical put an end to the musical ("as a genre", as you redundantly add). How's that logic class going?

Aside from such obvious wrongheadedness, your point's off-base. Expensive bombs like Mame and Lost Horizon made studios gun-shy of big musicals--especially given the grittier taste that the public had developed. Witness the Best Picture Oscars: after Oliver! ('68) came Midnight Cowboy ('69), The French Connection ('71) and The Godfather ('72. Why risk a flop with a musical when you can do a tough, realistic and cheaper drama that's more likely to attract the crowds?

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I just saw LOST HORIZON at the Egyptian Theatre and it was wonderful.
Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNHOHjVhwQ&feature=channel_page

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What the OP meant was the way Cabaret was filmed with all the songs that were not being sung in a realistic setting being cut. Basicaly they turned it from a musical film, into a film with songs. As said before with the exception of "Tomorow belongs to me", every song from the show which was not sung by a performer/perfomers in the club was removed.

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I in a way was upset with all of the song cuts or revisions, but, I can understand it.
Kind of how Chicago turned the song numbers into Roxie's fantasies.

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Yes I didn't like the song cuts either. But at least Chicago didn't cut as many.

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Chicago cut my FAVORITE!
"I am My Own Best Friend"
That bugged me so much.
It really shows how much Velma and Roxie yearn for fame.

And Cabaret, the film, is the reason Mein Herr was written, right?
So, I'm ecstatic for that, since Mein Herr is one of my favorite songs in it, next to Don't Tell Mama and Tomorrow Belongs to Me, Reprise.

It's a shame the reprise wasn't in the film...

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Of course Don't Tell Mama was one of the ones that was cut. Mein Herr replaced it, and was itself a parody of the French song Milord.

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While I agree that after "Cabaret" it was more difficult to make a traditional old fashioned "burst into song" film musical.... the fact that "Grease" came along a mere six years later and made like a zillion dollars pretty much confirmed the genre was not dead; just in need of a revival: a revival one might argue which has continued for over forty years, well into this decade - following the successes of "Moulin Rouge" and "Chicago" and with "Nine" and "Wicked" among others, scheduled for release soon.

"the best that you can do is fall in love"

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You can't use Grease as an augment. After 'Saturday Night Fever' anything staring 'John Travolta' would have been a hit. You even say yourself that after Grease it was 40 years before there was another truly successful film musical.

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Moon_and_New_York City, GREASE was a teenage musical farce. Evita, Moulin Rouge were done in MTV lightening speed editing and as operas. Chicago is also a comedy farce of sorts. There has not been a dramatic musical done in the traditional sense since LOST HORIZON or MAME. FIDDLER ON THE ROOF was the last successful dramatic musical to be done in the traditional sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x091fgqfDxQ&list=UUcRtwN339zAQfY0Il pHNP8w&feature=plcp

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I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with you. If any one film were to blame for the death of the musical genre, it'd have to be High School Musical. -dies a little for just mentioning it-

I'm not psycho, just a little loopy.
*~me~*

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This thread is about the fall off of musical films in the early 70's. How the hell can a film made in 2006 have anything o do with it.

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This thread implies that this film killed musicals. I say it didn't.

I'm not psycho, just a little loopy.
*~me~*

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Now there I agree with you, as I have said before in this thread. Musicals were already failing in the late 60's. Grease was a one off, and its success is based more on the fact that it was released on the back of Saturday Night Fever (even though I personally think Grease is a great film).

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Since the film musical genre is clearly not dead, the whole premise of the OP is wrong.

I did however find this interesting commentary from wikipedia, which summarizes neatly our debate here:



Over the last thirty-five years or so, the musical film has declined in popularity, although with the success of the films West Side Story, The Music Man, My Fair Lady, Mary Poppins, and The Sound of Music, there was a resurgence in the 1960s. One reason for the decline in interest in musical films was the change in culture to rock n' roll and the freedom and youth associated with it. Elvis Presley made a few movies that have been equated with the old musicals in terms of form. Most of the musical films of the 50s and 60s, for example Oklahoma! and The Sound of Music, were straightforward adaptations or restagings of successful stage productions. The most successful musical of the 1960s created specifically for film was Mary Poppins, one of Disney's biggest hits.

Despite the success of a few musicals, Hollywood failed to capitalise on these by producing a series of enormous musical flops in the late 1960s and early 1970s which appeared to seriously misjudge public taste. These included Camelot, Hello Dolly!, Sweet Charity, Doctor Dolittle, Star!, Darling Lili, Paint Your Wagon, Song of Norway, On a Clear Day You Can See Forever, Man of La Mancha, Lost Horizon and Mame. Collectively and individually these failures crippled several of the major studios. By the early 1970s it was felt that the film musical had had its day.

[edit] The musical film today
With the traditional musical seen as box-office poison, by the mid-1970s filmmakers avoided the genre in favor of using music by popular rock or pop bands as background music, in the hope of selling a soundtrack album to fans. Even so, there were exceptions to this rule, notably the 1978 film version of Grease, filmed in the traditional style, albeit using a different musical genre. Once again, however, a follow-up (Grease 2) bombed at the box-office, as did a calamitous attempt to resurrect the old-style musical in Can't Stop the Music (a vehicle for The Village People) which was released in 1980. Instead, films about actors, dancers or singers have been made as successful modern-style musical films, with the music as a diegetic part of the storyline. Many animated movies also include traditional musical numbers; some of these movies later became live stage productions, such as Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King.

In the early 2000s, the musical film began to rise in popularity once more, with new works such as Moulin Rouge!, Across the Universe,and Enchanted; film adaptations of stage shows, such as Chicago, The Phantom of the Opera, Rent, Dreamgirls, Sweeney Todd and Mamma Mia!; and even film versions of stage shows that were themselves based on non-musical films, such as The Producers, Hairspray and Reefer Madness. Under the mainstream radar, there have been acclaimed independent musical films, such as Hedwig and the Angry Inch and Dancer in the Dark; and foreign musical films, such as 8 femmes, The Other Side of the Bed and Yes Nurse, No Nurse. In 2004, the New York Musical Theatre Festival presented a week-long festival of modern movie musicals that included 10 independent features made since 1996, as well as several programs of short movie musicals.



"the best that you can do is fall in love"

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Bullcaca. High School Musical (as well as Rent, and maybe also Once More With Feeling and Mayhem Of The Music Meister from Buffy The Vampire Slayer/Batman: The Brave & The Bold) has become responsible for younger people wanting to be involved with musicals, in reality, with many young ones wanting to be triple threats. Musicals like Cabaret or, say, Phantom Of The Opera weren't going to set the world on fire for younger people-the ones that are the future of musicals on stage, TV and movies, which is why High School Musical is a mega-success, as well as things like Glee.

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I couldn't disagree more...I think Bob Fosse's concept of basing musical numbers in realistic situations had nothing to do with the so called death of the movie musical. In fact, I would say this film brought a new respect to the genre and was the beginning of the resuscitation of the movie musical. And if you think it's no longer acceptable to break out into song in a movie musical, then you need to see DREAMGIRLS and HAIRSPRAY, for a couple of examples.

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I'm not saying it was done intentionally and yes, CABARET did bring a new respect to the genre but by doing that, it made it more difficult for the traditional "break out into song" musical to survive or be taken seriously. Films that deserved better reception from critics than they received.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNHOHjVhwQ

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As has been said to you many times, on this very thread. The traditional musical film was failing long before this film was made.

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Yes, it may have made it hard for the more traditional musical to speal of toi be seriously, but CABARET didn't completely destroy the genre as your original post implied.

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It's more to blame for the change than a film like LOST HORIZON was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YllDN1U0l_s&feature=email

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I draw your attention to this page.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_film

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Alot of those musicals they mentioned like HELLO DOLLY, SWEET CHARITY, DOCTOR DOLITTLE, DARLING LILI, PAINT YOUR WAGON, ON A CLEAR DAY YOU CAN SEE FOREVER, MAN OF LA MANCHA and LOST HORIZON are fine films and good musicals in their own right. True, the tread in musicals was waning, but alot of those films did end up making money and were very popular. The reason for their failure was due more to the extravagance and expense in which it took to produce them. The grosses were high but not high enough to recoup the investment. Those films are also among the most expensive films ever produced up until that time. When CABARET came along, it killed that genre for good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNHOHjVhwQ

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What I was trying to point out is that of all the movies listed in the paragraph you yourself have quoted, only two are post Cabaret, and one the same year. All the rest are before Cabaret, and all were flops. Rather than Cabaret destroying the traditional musical, it was filmed the way it was because the traditional musical was already destroyd.

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I don't know about all of those films you mentioned recouping their costs...Hollywood legend has it that 20th Century Fox almost went bankrupt because of DOCTOR DOOLITTLE.

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Yes it did, but only because it was SO expensive. Doctor Dolittle is a handsomely mounted and produced film with good music. It was a children's film that was really geared more for adults than it was for kids. It had a "prestige" thing going for it that fans of film musicals could appreciate more than children.
A BEAUTIFUL PRINT OF THIS NOW ON YOU TUBE . . . and to think Liza Minnelli and Desi Arnaz Jr were at the premiere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7t-PkWUDIo

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Doctor Dolittle is a handsomely mounted and produced film with good music.


I don't know about all that.

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Don't get me wrong, CABARET is a sensational musical film, but there's a myth going around that films like MAME and LOST HORIZON put an end to the musical as a genre. It was actually CABARET. While I am in agreement of some of the criticism of MAME and while LOST HORIZON did not live up to the memory of the original in the eyes of many people, they are not to blame for the death of the musical as a genre. The blame really belongs with CABARET. After Cabaret it was no longer acceptable for characters to "break" out into song to express an emotion in the traditional sense. Songs had to be presented realistically on a stage or performed for a "reason". If CABARET had never been made, things might have been different.


ALL HAIL to Cabaret for that!!!!!

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@temps_perdu,
You're so jaded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJd9eXCc4Mc

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@cliffcarson-1

Why? :)))

Jaded little pill...

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research. musicals have been done in the traditional way after Cabaret, including Dreamgirls and Chicago.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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moosefeathers,

Dreamgirls is a good example, but it was over 30 years before Dreamgirls. In Chicago, the musical numbers are done as almost imagined dreams, not so much in a real sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bwMM3wsr38&feature=relmfu

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Troll.

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[deleted]

I saw an MGM tribute presented with An American In Paris. Frankly, the tribute was mind boggling and I have probably watched it as often as the film. If one considers the history of musicals, a seminal point is the release of Gigi, which was arguably the end of the great musicals and certainly, there's been nothing on par with Gigi (9 Academy Awards) since 1958. And make no mistake, all of the great MGM musicals were made by the Arthur Freed unit (Freed was in fact responsible for the Wizard of Oz but doesn't get any credit for it on film). What made Freed's unit impossible for match? Talent and money. Freed brought the best of Broadway to Hollywood, and the Freed orchestra, led by Andre Previn, was one of the finest in the world. Thyey had unmatched writing, costuming, cinematography, choreography, everything was the best money could but at that time...MGM held nothing back. If an actor or actress couldn't dance, sing, and act then they didn't make it to the Freed unit and if one considers the talent there: Kelly, Astaire, Sinatra, Garland, Reynolds, Bolger...the list is almost endless and it is most certainly dazzlingly spectacular.

There have been grand musicals sine Gigi, one of which is Caberet,another Chicago and yet another Moulin Rouge. Do these films compare to Wizard of Oz, The Harvey Girls, An American In Paris, Singing in the Rain, and Gigi? I suppose that's an arguable point because the three modern musicals are indeed very very good and the talent involved was certainly top notch. But the era of great musicals ended in 1958 and that's not debatable, at least with film critics and historians.

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