MovieChat Forums > Kung Fu (1972) Discussion > The Facts Regarding Lee Vs. Carradine

The Facts Regarding Lee Vs. Carradine


Bruce Lee is Awesome! David Carradine is Awesome!

There are many conflicting stories on this. I believe after doing a great deal of research on the subject that whatever idea Bruce had it was not the same show that Kung Fu was. It was also not in the same time frame. Now the facts are that they did interview Bruce Lee for the part. They were very impressed with him. However the reason he did not get the part has nothing to do with a "prejudice" against Asians. It was simply that they felt his English would not be understood by the average American. His accent was too heavy.

My belief is that for this show Carradine was the best choice and his style of acting was the best fit!

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THANK YOU! I'm very glad someone posted this to clear up some common beliefs. I think it was Bruce Lee's widow that had said he was involved in the development of 'Kung Fu', but that was not the case.

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You are welcome. As you might guess by my user name I am a big "Kung Fu" fan. I have done extensive reading on both Carradine and Lee and I am a serious fan of both. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the origins of the show as well as Bruce's connection to it.

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Nice post, most people seem to believe Lee was screwed out of Kung Fu because thats the way it was represented in "Dragon" but its nice to see someone taking the time to present the facts and the true story.

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I'm sorry to disappoint everyone here but it was Bruce Lee's idea people! I cannot believe you have posted such inaccurate information. You obviously know nothing about Bruce Lee and his legacy!I have been studying Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do for a long time and have practised with Sifu Ted Wong. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

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My first question is why do you believe it was Lee's idea and what proof do you have to support that?

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Linda writes about it in her book:"The Life and Tragic Death of Bruce Lee", which was published in 1975. The movie was based on this book;of course a lot of things were embellished for the public. True Bruce Lee fans know the truth. I study Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and have met and trained with Sifu Ted Wong. It sounds like you don't want it to be true,now why would that be?

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I could careless if its true or not but no real facts support the fact that it is true. I also read a "biography" that said William Shatner had sex with dogs and farm animals but that doesn't make it true. If you had facts from someone impartial I might conside that its true but a biography written by Lee's wife that even you admit was embellished are hardly facts. Everything I've looked into on the subject supports the fact that while Lee hoped to make a TV series exploring the true essense of martial arts he never had a clear cut idea for a series, never pitched an idea to anyone or studio, esspecially anyone involved in the creation of "Kung Fu".

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When I said "embellished"I was not referring to everything in the movie(especially the part about the ideas he had for "Kung-Fu")or about anything Linda wrote(especially what she wrote!) Things were stretched or embellished to make it more dramatic or whatever.I was referring to how he hurt his back and how the demons would visit him. Impartial facts; what? Usually the best source is a true source, people who personally knew the person and the truth . What else is there? If I died I wouldn't want some freelance writer disclosing information he heard 3rd or 4th hand.I would want my husband or one of my family members to write and share my life. Linda is a nice woman so why would she write a book with lies when they can easily be proven. By the way, his idea was pitched to the studio...they just turned their backs on him because he was Asian and American audiences weren't ready(according to the studio) for an Asian lead. Although I must say Canadian audiences would never have had a problem with that.

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Saying Lee's wife is the best sourse for true info is like me claiming Ed Speilmans mom said he didn't steal the idea from Lee. As far as her motivation for writting lies in the book it was written at the height of Kung Fu's popularity and she wanted to cash in that. I've only ever found three things to support the Lee was screwed story, the first two are the book by Linda and the movie which it was based on. In both they claim Lee's idea was ripped off when he pitched the idea to the producers of The Green Hornet, however no one that worked on the production of the hornet had anything to do with the creation and development of KF. The film also claims Lee was sitting home watching KF roughly two years before its actual premiere, infact Lee had been back in Hong Kong making films for several years at the time KF was developed, meaning at the time Lee was supposedly pitching his idea to the studio he was actually on the other side of the world. The only other fact I came across was an interview with Lee in which he mentioned a series called The Warrior that he wanted to do but he didn't believe he would ever get to do and wouldn't even bring to a studio until their attitudes about asian actors changed. The truth is Ed Speilman created KF after years of studing martial arts and hearing stories told by his instructors about legendary martial arts masters. This is supported by "The Kung Fu Book" by Robert Anderson, "The History of Martial Arts in Film" by WJ Griffin, as well as simply paying attention to the dates presented in Linda Lees book and "Dragon" the movie. Further more as a "true fan" of Lee perhaps you could explain why a man who took on the whole asian culture with regard to teaching martial arts would, after getting his idea stolen would simply say oh well and move on with life .

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People didn't sue eachother back then. Wow it looks like you have all the answers! Thank God for you with all your truthful facts. Now that the truth is out well we can all rest easy. Okay everybody lets stop talking about this, qrz94 has spoken and the truth has finally been clarified.

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You can insult me if you want but I notice you aren't able to actually dispute anything I've said other than showing the inacuriate page on Kung Fu created by a misguided fan who believes the same crap you do simple because you saw it in a movie. If you have any real proof to support your claim I'm interested in hearing it otherwise I guess we're done.

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The proof is in the books I have on Bruce Lee written by many different people. And I have also asked Sifu Ted Wong about this. Don't tell me he is lying. This is a very credible man and well respected. Maybe you could read other books written by some of Bruce Lee's ex students. Of course you will probably say they are all wrong. You tell me I cannot dispute anything you have written? Really so you have final judgement? Sometimes a person who says less says more. You haven't exactly given any concrete facts to support your opinion.

If that information I posted was credited in a movie or on a tv show, then I guess something legal would have to happen....no? My question to you is why do you want to take credit away from Bruce Lee?

P.S. I am more than a fan, I actually study Bruce Lee's art. I have been doing so for over 10 years and another thing qrz94, I have had the pleasure to meet Linda at a couple of conferences/seminars.

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Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I thought you gave up on this arguement awhile ago and hadn't checked back, anyway on to the arguing.

"The proof is in the books I have on Bruce Lee written by many different people."
If you want to prove something name the books the way I did in my reply.

"And I have also asked Sifu Ted Wong about this. Don't tell me he is lying. This is a very credible man and well respected."
I won't say you are lying but anyone on the internet can claim to have meet and talked to anyone, in your initial post you claimed to study under Ted Wong then you changed it to you study Jeet Koon D and meet him, now you claim you talked to him about Lee creating Kung Fu so while I won't say your lying I'm very sceptical. I could claim I was in Ed Spielmans house when he wrote the pilot for Kung Fu but I'm pretty sure your smart enough to not believe it

"Maybe you could read other books written by some of Bruce Lee's ex students. Of course you will probably say they are all wrong."
Again name the books and if I can find them for a reasonable price I will read them, to this point nothing I've seen or read gives actual proof to the claim that Lee created Kung Fu.

"You tell me I cannot dispute anything you have written? Really so you have final judgement?"
Sorry if you missunderstood, you certainly have the right to say and dispute what I've written. I just meant that while you spent alot of time insulting me you didn't actually dispute any of the facts I'ld given.

"Sometimes a person who says less says more. You haven't exactly given any concrete facts to support your opinion." Actually I gave three sources to back up the FACTS I gave and pointed out the flaws in the movie and book you sighted.

"If that information I posted was credited in a movie or on a tv show, then I guess something legal would have to happen....no?"
That information you posted didn't appear in the credits of Kung Fu ever they are just on the imdb page. I list you as having created Kung Fu and it would appear on the imdb page in 48 hours. I actually find it interesting that you believe a guy who was willing to take on the hole asian culture simply srugged his shoulders and moved on without legal action when is idea was supposedly stolen.

"My question to you is why do you want to take credit away from Bruce Lee?"
If Bruce Lee did create it I wouldn't take credit away. My question is why do you want to give create to Lee for creating something he didn't?

"P.S. I am more than a fan, I actually study Bruce Lee's art. I have been doing so for over 10 years and another thing qrz94, I have had the pleasure to meet Linda at a couple of conferences/seminars."
Thats commendable if true but again anyone on the internet can claim anything so I doubt it.

"Oh yes FYI qrz94; this is a quote by David Carradine taken from his official home page: "The iconic TV series Kung Fu followed. Originally developed by and for Bruce Lee, it catapulted me to superstardom for the next three years, until I left the series to pursue my film career"."
Carradine also claims he witnessed a man do a backflip and disappear in midair then reappear in another room, in his book "The Spirit of Saolin" he also claims Lee was much more of an actor than a martial artist and used stuntmen for most of his work in films.

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Well I don't lie(yeah I know anyone can say that). Although Carradine can sound weird a lot of times he does give credit where credit is due. Like I said before; people didn't really sue each other back then(not like today which seems to be big business). There are many artists who have been screwed out of ideas(people steal ideas and plagiarise),let us face it; when nothing is written down what is one to do? Way back when, who could sue a studio....there was a lot of prejudice back then you have to admit, I mean look what Bruce Lee had to do....he had to go to Hong Kong and then come back. The U.S. has not changed much has it. I'm sure Canada would have welcomed him in a tv series with open arms.

Yes anyone can claim knowing this person and that person...but I do know Sifu Ted Wong and have studied Jeet Kune Do for a long time.

p.s. On the getting sued etc. I could talk about how George Harrison got screwed around. And come on the man was rich and famous.

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You have a valid point about a minority trying to sue a major studio in the 70's. I was ready to admit Carradines statement was the best evidence so far that Lee had anything to do with the series but after looking over the myspace page Carradine is obviously using several things on the page two pander to the internet audience so this is just another case of Carradine making a statement based on whichever way the wind blows.

In the extras of Kung Fu season one DVD one of the producers talks about meeting with Lee when they were casting for the series and passing because he didn't think American audiences would understand him. I remember when I heard that I was pretty shocked because no one associated with the show had ever admitted to meeting with Lee before that. Based on the research I've done on the whole deal I believe while Lee had a vague idea for a martial arts series it was not Kung Fu but when producers that were already developing the series meet with Lee they most likely picked his brain for additional ideas, the same way CBS did with Gene Roddenberry when they were developing Lost in Space, which lead to Linda Lee misrepresenting the truth in her biography which created something of an urban legend about Lee creating Kung Fu. It still may be possible that Lee did create Kung Fu but no facts I've found support that, and if it is true I don't expect anyone involved to own up to the idea. It also may be possible that Linda Lee misrepresented certain facts to create her biography that was coming out when Kung Fu was one of the most popular series on TV. In the end we will probably never know for certain.

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If Linda Lee claims that Bruce Lee was the creator, then why doesn't she present some proofs like manuscripts that Bruce Lee drafted?


http://www.happierabroad.com - Your guide to love and happiness beyond America

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Because nobody has asked for them(although she does write about it in her book) and plus the debate is not on the table right now...maybe in the future? Wait and see I guess.

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People certainly did sue back then. The rights for certain elements of the James Bond films that came about during the writing of Thunderball were held up in courts for years prior to and during this time period.

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Oh yes FYI qrz94; this is a quote by David Carradine taken from his official home page: "The iconic TV series Kung Fu followed. Originally developed by and for Bruce Lee, it catapulted me to superstardom for the next three years, until I left the series to pursue my film career".

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There are several documenteries of Bruce Lee.
I have seen one that shows Lee (in a B&W clip) talking about a failed project called The Warrior. At the time of this interview, Kung Fu was not in production.
So Lee was talking about this project BEFORE Kung Fu was around, Lee states he took the idea to "a studio" (though he does not state which one). He also says they turned down the idea as they felt America was not ready to see an Asain man in a starring role.
Lee goes on to exaplin he does not feel bad about thtis as it's understandable from a bussines point of view. He also mentiones if he was "the man with the money" making an Asain film and an American wanted to be the star, he would not have let this happen.

Anyway, Lee is describing the plot of this show called The Warrior of it being about a martial artist who travels the world imparting he teachings where he goes.
All this BEFORE Kung Fu wnet into production, and from the mouth of Bruce Lee himself.

And people say there is no proof Kung Fu was "stolen" from one of Lee's ideas?

Kung Fu was ripped off from Bruce's original idea called The Warrior.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he is God.

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Do you have a link to that documentary.??? Without actually seeing it and hearing the exact wording he used to describe "The Warrior" plot, it's pretty hard to believe your statement as is, no offense intended but a word added here or a word omitted there can change the plot, as stated by you, immensely.. I would imagine that if Lee's wife had real proof like this documentary, it would have proven her claim in court.. Most of this discussion comes down to "He said, she said" and from fans who are obviously bias in their opinions..

Bill Steward

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Oh fyi qrz94 this is listed on the Kung-Fu tv series(1972)page:
Writing credits
(in alphabetical order)
Howard Friedlander
Bruce Lee co-creator
Ed Spielman story

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Lee wouldnt have had Caine flee to America to hide because a China mam would stick out like a sore thumb. So he didn't write it

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Lee was just buttsore he didn't get the role...

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As one of the dogs in the afore mentioned sex act, I would have to agree that you should not believe everything you read. However, believe me when I say that Billy is a very gentle and passionate man - we will leave it at that!

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Okay, I have a question. You've taken up a martial art, okay fine; give yourself a pat on the back.

How do you imagine that helps your intelligence? What do you think this adds to a conversation? You're committing the 'appeal to authority' fallacy; do you not see that?

Hanging out with someone who trained under Bruce Lee at one time makes neither you--nor he--authorities on this *specific* topic.

You're just copping some prestige, based on something entirely different. "I know someone who knew Bruce Lee". Oh, really? Gee whiz, pardon us while we choke on our bran muffins.

It doesn't settle the matter in the slightest.
If you've even had one random conversation where it came up in passing, that still cuts no weight.

Does your martial arts practice make you any more competent a historical researcher? Does it take the place of a college education?

Do you sit there in your little dojo with stacks of books, cross-checking facts and tracking down sources?

No.




"God rot all 'good men'...."

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My god you are one ignorant fool, how can you say Bruce Lee is awesome and at the same time discredit him entirely? His English can't be understood? I guess in your world Hollywood is entirely non-prejudice against minority especially asians and especially in the 70s. But in my world it has EVERYTHING to do with the racism against the asian man, and still is today, look at the casting of the recent Dragon Ball Evolution, and the soon to be The Last Airbender movie and tell me todays Asian american can't speak english right!

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I know this is off topic a bit, but wasn't The Last Airbender created by two guys not from Asia? Also, though the series definitely had an East Asian feel to it, there was never any claim the characters were of Far East extraction.

As for whether or not today's Asian-American can speak English... well, I live in California and have many encounters with recently arrived citizens who cannot. However, this is true of most new residents of America. My own grandparents came from Europe, lived in the U.S. for forty years, and never really spoke English that well.

Way, way, off topic. Why is it that only people from China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, and such, are considered Asian-American? What about people from India, Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries located in Asia? These are the things I think about while doing my laundry.

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Of course Bruce cared. He had a vision, and philosophy of love and tolerance(ie not racist and accepting of all cultures and backgrounds). He majored in philosophy, and that something that people who never really followed him never know about. He was much more than just a martial artist, or a fighter. He was also the consummate free thinker and progressive(it's the 60-70's).

He was trying to break down the barriers between east and west at the time, and this show would have been a huge part of it. To say Bruce didn't care makes it sound like he doesn't care about racism or intolerance at the time.

If you think this show or Carradine affected more people in a positive way than Bruce would have, i think you're solely mistaken. Even without this show, Bruce has affected 10.. no, 100 or 1000 times more people than Carradine has in his whole career, not just limited to this show. If you can't tell by now, i'm a huge fan of Bruce, and he is my greatest rolemodel. As a 'progressive' Australian born Chinese myself, i can't help but be reminded of the missed opportunity and the intolerance that this show represents. Bruce probably would have done away with the whole traditional shaolin cheesy crap, and made it progressive and represented Asians or Chinese and Kung Fu with a modern twist. This, i'm 100% sure of.

None of this old calm master who can't fight and spouting cliched fortune cookie lines. I don't know about you guys, but I find that kind of stuff demeaning. Even more so when i remember that they chose Carradine(who doesn't even look full asian) and 'exploitation' over Bruce and truly doing the right thing and bridging two cultures. It could have gone down in history for being Bruce's series and magnum opus. Instead it represents a time of racism in hollywood and the US for me. Which, as i have already stated, has not changed much at all in the last 40 years..

I miss you still Bruce.

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"f you think this show or Carradine affected more people in a positive way than Bruce would have, i think you're solely mistaken."

SOLELY?

Did you create this typo intentionally, or is it a genuine mistake? I mean, you are talking about asian people possibly having difficulties in pronouncing english correctly..

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That is *beep* If you've read or seen any of his books or interviews, Bruce himself explains that they passed him over because marketting an asian lead to mainstream U.S back in those times weren't going to work. So while he was disappointed, he also clearly understood that the studio would be taking great risks casting him as the lead.

You can see the interview i'm referring to on Youtube. Here's the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXOtmhA6Nvw

I'm 100% sure he was talking about what eventually was Kung Fu. He also talks about prejudice and his hollywood career and his roles on longstreet and green hornet. It's a great, timeless interview.

Now, you can say that you don't believe Bruce, but personally, i believe what he said. He has no reason to lie and make that up, he was a superstar already at the time and he was telling it how it was. Nothing more, nothing less. If it wasn't true, i'm sure someone would have said something by now, especially the real creator or the cast/crew. Carradine and the studio might of wanted to associate the series with Bruce posthumously, but Bruce has nothing to gain by saying he got rejected because he was too 'exotic'. You can see it in his eye in the interview that he was actually hurt and disappointed by that decision.

As for them passing him over because Bruce's english wouldn't be understood by the average American.. that's even more *beep* Bruce was born and raised in the US, and he also went to school there. Watch the interview, and then tell me he isn't more well versed than the average American in english. It's 100% perfectly understandable. It's nothing like Jet Li or Jackie Chan. He is actually articulate and fluent. Like really really articulate and fluent. He would put Obama to shame even imo, because unlike Obama, he isn't a politician and the *beep* he spits is cold hard truth. He was ahead of his time, even now.

As for the differences had Lee been picked, i'm sure he would have wanted creative control over the show, and would have done it with his own philosophy and JKD in the roll. Just look at Enter The Dragon, you can already see him adding philosophical overtones to it.. "Don't think, feel!", "It's like a finger pointing to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory!", "Be like water my friend" "I do the art of fighting, without fighting!" and so on..

So yeah, i believe that he would have done something that would have been realistic and more true to himself, rather than something like fight X bad guy every show.

Bruce could have written, directed, and fought himself. He is a one man wrecking machine, and thoughtful philosopher too. He is/was the real deal. Think about it.. Bruce Lee's own TV show where he has total control. That would have been legendary. I can not think of anyone from all of history who i would rather see have a regular show.

Just watching his interview, you can tell the man had so much to say and share with the world. I could just listen to him talk for hours, or even if he's completely silent, that would have also been fine to just watch him move.

It's a real shame that he died, because with him died the best chance that an asian american had of becoming the biggest star in hollywood/the west. Even these days, there is STILL no show that has a asian american as a leading man and which focuses on asian themes/philosophy. Or they might have 'asian americans', but they look half cast or something or are in derogatory roles(nothing serious, no romance etc). We've still got a long way to go unfortunately.

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Like David Carradine, Bruce Lee was only considered by the KUNG FU producers as an actor, not in any other capacity. When Carradine began shooting the pilot, Lee was busy shooting his second film in Hong Kong, already a legend in his native China, having done film work there since he was a child. His concept for a TV series was set on a global scale, not just the Old West like Ed Spielman's. Bruce Lee's widow is entitled to protect her late husband's legacy, but if she wants to claim that he wanted to star in a Western series, I'd have to believe otherwise. Why try to present a case for racism pitting one actor over another, especially now that both are no longer with us. I'm proud to have the entire series, and Lee's Hong Kong starring features. They are truly among the stars now.

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They made Carradine look awful good with camera angles, editing and choreography.

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