MovieChat Forums > Morte a Venezia (1971) Discussion > On the subject of paedophilia

On the subject of paedophilia

posted 12 years ago by josella14-1
23 replies | jump to latest

I know everyone has their own thoughts on Aschenbach's love for Tadzio - this is just mine (based on the movie, as I'm still re-reading the book and have forgotten what happens).

First of all just like everyone else (except, and sometimes including, paedophiles) I'm heartily against child abuse of any kind. I do find Tadzio's seductiveness in the film odd (swinging on the poles on the beach) but in light of how we're shown Aschenbach's family life, I think we're to presume that he's not gay, nor normally drawn to minors. I also think that despite his obsessive behaviour, and his daydream of touching Tadzio's hair that he wouldn't act on his feelings.

I know a couple - two ladies - who, for most of their lives, were each married to men but are now together and completely in love and completely devoted to each other and they've said to me, "We're not gay. We're just in love with each other," and that's how I feel about Aschenbach's love for Tadzio. That it just so happened that Tadzio was a fifteen year old boy but perhaps he could have been a fifty year old woman (not that that would have been a very interesting film).

I know that's simplifying it a bit, and maybe I just like to avoid the sinister, but it's such a beautiful film....!

[–] Mandyjam 12 years ago

I agree with you completely!

What Aschenbach was feeling was infatuation. He was infatuated by the youth and beauty. I think he just wanted to gaze on Tadzio and admired him.

And Tadzio was just at an age where he was old enough to enjoy being admired, but innocent enough not to perceive the man's admiration as threatening. If he had been a little bit older or more knowing, he would have regarded Aschenbach as an old perv.

"great minds think differently"

[–] HotRod_SC 11 years ago

Not really, he was a closeted gay that discovered his sexual orientation towards the end of his life when he first saw Tadzio, that's it.

Of course the movie is more than that, but you can't just try to ignore the obvious: any form of infatuation or love is sexual for the most part, thus Aschenbach was in fact either homosexual or bisexual, but he certainly liked men, just that he wasn't aware of it, just like it says in the book -he wasn't aware of many feelings-.

I think Mann made Aschenbach's object of afection a young boy because that would prove problematic for Aschenbach, since he could not act on his feelings, let me show you:
- Had it been a beautiful woman, Aschenbach would find it alright, all he had to do was ask her out and hang around till he had her- or not.

- Had it been a "legal" man Aschenbach would still find it problematic, but certainly not as problematic as with a minor.

-Had it been an underage girl, Aschenbach would have been troubled, but back in the day all he had to do was ask her parents for her hand and then marry her. A man with money and fame like him wouldn't have had major objections unless the little girl was like a princess or something.

Thus, the logical pick for Mann to write an interesting book full of contradictions and emotional troubles was... Tadzio.

now this is acting: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2458172160/tt1528718

[–] megArnold 11 years ago

Not really, he was a closeted gay that discovered his sexual orientation towards the end of his life when he first saw Tadzio, that's it.

Absolutely nothing in the book or the movie tells us that. You see what you want to see. And that's OK, if it helps you with your own personal development.

any form of infatuation or love is sexual for the most part,

Once you get a bit older, you'll realize that that isn't always the case.

--
Grammar:
The difference between knowing your sh**
and knowing you're sh**.

[–] SforSmile 9 years ago

The boy was so androgynous that he could as well pass off as a girl thus he represented the old beauty ideal of the classical period, A. saw perfection and purity united in his persona, that's why he felt attracted to him.

"Some people are immune to good advice."
-Saul Goodman

[–] galaxy7 10 years ago

And Tadzio was just at an age where he was old enough to enjoy being admired, but innocent enough not to perceive the man's admiration as threatening. If he had been a little bit older or more knowing, he would have regarded Aschenbach as an old perv.

Yeah, Aschenbach may not have been a pedophile, but he definitely looked like an old perv.

There are times when I find him (Aschenbach), physically and morally disgusting (I know that the character is supposed to be old and sick). If that was the intention, then Visconti and Bogarde were well succeeded. I doubt that Tadzio would have wanted anything to do with him...but hey, who knows! To each his own.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lackery 11 years ago

An artist looking for perfection within his own art and realising that that particular beauty may not be reachable by study and devotion alone, it may just be a quality of the chosen few, very Darwinian in fact, a natural selection.

I saw no lusting after the boy only the pathetic hope of an ill man searching for beauty and hope but for him it was unreachable, although there was inspiration given fleetingly for Aschenbach because we saw him writing music again when Tadzio was in view of him. A very sad tale, beautifully told: there's the irony within the palate of Visconti.

This really should be watched in Italian with Bogarde only speaking English and we would have a much more lucid piece of art.

[–] franzkabuki 11 years ago

What is strange about the whole thing, is that this "ultimate beauty in human form" or whatever, is represented by that pale, skinny, vaguely obnoxious-looking little brat. Certainly closer to being ugly than beautiful.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

[–] cthulhulurks 11 years ago

The obsession with youngsters represents the deluded character's desperate attempt to regain health and youth, while denying the illness that permeates him and the world around and gradually succumbing to it.

my vote history:
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur13767631/ratings

[–] WeGetIt 11 years ago

I havn't read the book but to me nothing in the film suggested that he is a pedophile. A pedophile is someone who is attracted to pre-pubescent kids. The hotel he stayed at had many young children but he didn't show much interest in them. Tadzio is more like a young adult.

[–] Mandyjam 11 years ago

That's right. He is not a paedophile.

One aspect of the story is that he hasn't experienced this sort of feeling before. He has lived a heterosexual life. Suddenly he is confronted with a person whose youth and beauty just blows him away. And it happens to be a teenaged boy.

The important thing to remember is that the the man is a composer, and in common with most other artists, he is on a lifelong quest for beauty. Often beauty is at its most striking and appealing when it is in contrast to our present state. There are many examples of this, but a well-known one, which I think I may have mentioned on these pages previously, is the story of the British soldier in Italy in WWII who stumbled into a basement and was confronted by the image of a naked woman with her long hair swept around her. He was so obsessed with what he had seen that he made copies of it all his life. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corset1908_243Fig121.png
In this instance, the man is aware of his own ageing, his frailty, his personal losses, and his failures. The boy is young, full of vitality, beautiful, innocent and surrounded by family.

Because of the modern emphasis on both homosexuality and paedophilia, it is hard for a 21st century viewer, particularly a young viewer, to put aside these two cultural contexts. One way to explain it is to imagine the boy as something "other". Say that he was a fairy that had been seen hovering above the canals, or a large and extremely well-cut diamond. The yearning is to see it closer, hold it or own it or touch it. (Like the collector in another movie who, by accident, comes to own the world's three rarest stamps for just half an hour).

One of the significant things about Tadzio (which teenagers don't know, but most parents discover) is that almost every kid who has someone to love it, reaches a point in their teenage years, or young adult years, where their parent, or grandma or teacher, or older sibling, looks at them and thinks "You are the most beautiful precious person in the world. You are JUST WONDERFUL!" It generally happens in conjunction with a special event in a kid's life, graduation, wedding, birthday, live performance, but not necessarily. It's the point at which everything seems to come together. That is the sort of way in which Tadzio is appearing to his admirer.

To presume that this ill and ageing man's interest is primarily sexual (either homosexual or paedophile) is a very big mistake.

"great minds think differently"

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] nigel-952-885999 10 years ago

In the book Tadzio is fourteen. The real life Tadzio with whom Mann himself became infatuated was only eleven.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] josella14-1 10 years ago

I've really enjoyed everyone's thoughtful and eloquent replies to this - thank you so much!

[–] zachanscom 10 years ago

find it funny how people say, he's in love with the boy, but he's not gay or a pdeophile.

hmm, being infatuated with a little kid in that way makes you a gay and a pdeophile. you cannot escape definition of those two words.

we are shown explicitly in both novel and film that the love was not platonic in nature. it was a kind of greek pederasty love. the type socrates likely engaged in.

[–] standardmetal 9 years ago

I think you would all solve the puzzle if you all only read a biography of Thomas Mann even if only in Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann

Thomas Mann was certainly a paedophile and the subject was constantly discussed frankly in his family including with his wife Katia having her say on this subject. Of course, more than two of his children were gay, most notably Klaus and Erika.

The discussion concerning the real Tadzio who was really a child (10 years old) when Mann encountered him at the Venice Lido has also become very familiar. "Tadzio" ,Władysław (Władzio) Moes, a 10-year-old Polish boy (see also "The Real Tadzio" on the Death in Venice page). was of Polish nobility and when he realized the truth of the story seemed rather proud of it! Yes, he remembered Mann at the Lido.

You are here dealing with Europeans who were not afraid of their sexuality though I don't think Mann ever acted on his paedophilia, not Americans who were and maybe still are.

They, of course, took refuge in California where they lived for years since Mann became an outspoken enemy of the Nazis and his wife was Jewish as well.

[–] michaelpaulmeaney-552-955763 9 years ago

'being infatuated with a little kid in that way makes you a gay and a pdeophile' - what on earth are you talking about? Hvae you studied this subject? Obviously not.

If you are an adult then yes being sexually attracted to a little kid in that way makes you a pedeophile but certainly not gay.

Thats the same as saying being infatuated with a little kid in that way makes you straight and a pedeophile if the character was a 15 year old girl and the other a man.

You might want to spend some time thinking about your thoughts before actually posting them.

Gay men are attracted to other gay men not male children just like straight men are attracted to adult females not female children.

If a man is attracted to male children he is a pedophile, if a man is attracted to female children he is a pedophile.

Learn the difference and stop referring that they are both the same thing.

[–] NurNodesinNil 9 years ago

for the record paedophilia is for the attraction prepubescent persons.
Attraction to those in their teens is Hebephilia and Ephebophilia. Still can be very abusive, illegal and immoral but it should be pointed out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia

NurNodesinNil

[–] crissttigaldames 9 years ago

If a man is attracted to male children he is a pedophile, if a man is attracted to female children he is a pedophile.

And if he's attracted to male children he's an homosexual pedophile, if he's attracted to female children then he's a heterosexual pedophile.

[–] pepetoony (1534) 4 years ago

That's a very sweeping statement. What if the boy in question (like Tadzio in this film) is androgynous looking?