MovieChat Forums > The Hospital (1972) Discussion > Earlier version of Network

Earlier version of Network


I liked it, but not nearly as much as Network. The Hospital is definitely a precursor to Network, with some of the same themes/character arcs. In TH, Scott was Holden, Rigg was Dunaway, and Hughes was Finch.

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All true. As I recall, between The Hospital in 1971 and Network in 1976, Paddy Chayefsky wrote no other movies -- they are really "back to back" stories told by the same man about the same themes. And told, effectively from the same viewpoint: of a late middle-aged man, beset by fading sexual prowess(Scott is flat-out impotent; Holden while capable of sex with Dunaway, clearly feels old), raging against the new younger world(in both films, the left wing political protest of young "enemies" is viewed with contempt and mockery by Chayefsky.)

Chafefsky won the "Best Original Screenplay" Oscar for both movies, and in both cases, it was as if the dazzling, page long speeches he gave his characters to speak(complete with the difficult technical jargon of medicine and corporate broadcast television)he rather bullied the Academy with his brilliance -- smart scripts like these simply weren't filmed very often.

Because Chafefsky couldn't be forced to edit his own scripts, both scripts for both movies sometimes "goe off the rails" -- too much old-male grouchiness; too much over-articulate speech-making(the characters stop talking like real people) a few embarrassingly bad lines (for me its "I have primal fears" from Holden in Network.)

If Network is better(and it is) , it is because Chayefsky built Network around four big star roles(Holden, Dunaway, Finch, and Duvall) whereas The Hospital is almost entirely Scott's show(Rigg gets sex appeal and a couple of speeches but that's it; Hughes gets a good speech near the end, but he's not a known star.) Network even has more room for great speeches for Ned Beatty and Beatrice Straight(she won an Oscar for hers, he SHOULD have won an Oscar for his.)

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Moreover: Arthur Hiller was sort of a journeyman director and The Hospital(which he made right after the megahit Love Story) is an early 70's artifact: documentary-style in look, grimy, gritty, not easy to look at. Sidney Lumet was more of a "stylistic auteur" and Network has more flash and grandeur(that dark room with the rich green-lit lamps that Beatty makes his CEO speech in, for instance, or the big corporate banquets.)

Perhaps what The Hospital has OVER Network and why its great to have both movies is this: The Hospital is about life and death matters, health care issues that persist to this very day -- and the idea of saddling human beings like George C. Scott's character with responsibility over the very lives of the people in their communities. The Hospital is, in short, a more scary and sobering film experience than Network, which is really only...about TV.

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ecarle, always a pleasure to read you...

Sydney Lumet, a "stylistic auteur" though? I don't know...
His filming style is rather quite subdued and unobtrusive in most of his films (except maybe in the mid sixties, with his more "European-style" films like The Pawnbroker which is all over the place stylistically, the way, say, Frankenheimer's Seconds is, both from '66 by the way...).
Which is perhaps why he never won an Oscar or was fairly overlooked by the critiques for most of his career. As he explains in his wonderful "Making Movies" book, style in his films is always at the service of the story and never for its own sake, therefore never obvious.
Which is why, for example, it can take several viewings to actually spot his fantastic mise-en-scene in films like Network (the photography gradually going from gritty low-light 70's style, to brightly-lit, TV commercial sanitized aesthetic...), Prince of the City (long single takes with slow gradual zoom, the gradual emptying of the frame as the film progresses.
..) Daniel (the blue and yellow filters of both temporal story lines slowly merging into the same neutral lighting...), etc.

I think Network is no exception. The acting style of most of the cast is indeed bigger-than-life and on the "loud" side (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxqkrmkhrjw) but I don't think the direction style itself is flashy at all.

Lumet is undoubtedly a greater director than Hiller though. No question.

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Thank you for reading!

And now, some discussion:

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Sydney Lumet, a "stylistic auteur" though? I don't know...

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Oh, I guess I just threw it out there. I, too, read his book "Making Movies" and I was impressed by the attnention to look that he gave disparate movies like 12 Angry Men(which has a rather Hitchcockian-emphasis on big close-ups and low camera angles, plus a general "tightening of the shots") and The Verdict(all granite and Gothic and Boston Regal) and Network(with the various lighting strategies -- and I DO think the visuals of the Ned Beatty scene feel like auteur-time.)

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His filming style is rather quite subdued and unobtrusive in most of his films (except maybe in the mid sixties, with his more "European-style" films like The Pawnbroker which is all over the place stylistically, the way, say, Frankenheimer's Seconds is, both from '66 by the way...).

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Hah...those two movies rather look and play alike, don't they? In black and white, as well. It was a time of Eurofilm-influenced "jump cuts" and flashbacks and flashforwards. Even Old Guy Edward Dymtryk's 1965 thriller "Mirage" plays this way.

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Which is perhaps why he never won an Oscar or was fairly overlooked by the critiques for most of his career.

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Well, the more I think about it, Lumet was a "journeyman," too. Though he rather did this on purpose, His "Murder on the Orient Express"(1974) is about as stylistically different from his other, grittier work as can be.

This may have hurt Lumet at the Oscars: he was found in some quarters to be the "quintessential New York City director" and look at the setting for these films: 12 Angry Men, The Pawnbroker, The Anderson Tapes, Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon, Network. Evidently -- and this hurt Scorsese at the Oscars too for awhile -- Hollywood movie making voters didn't much cotten to NYC based movie makers.

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As he explains in his wonderful "Making Movies" book,

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Its a great book that's really ABOUT making movies. I learned a lot -- not that I could do what he does, but now I know how(Roger Ebert liked that book too, and we know that HE had no talent for film direction.)

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style in his films is always at the service of the story and never for its own sake, therefore never obvious.

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And maybe that's "the dark side of auteurism." We know what a Hitchcock movie looks like; what a John Ford movie looks like; we know what a Tarantino movie SOUNDS like, and both Scorsese and Spielberg had/have visual styles that mark them.

But if you're Sidney Lumet, you can adjust style from film to film. That said, Anderson Tapes, Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon look rather the same.

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Which is why, for example, it can take several viewings to actually spot his fantastic mise-en-scene in films like Network (the photography gradually going from gritty low-light 70's style, to brightly-lit, TV commercial sanitized aesthetic...), Prince of the City (long single takes with slow gradual zoom, the gradual emptying of the frame as the film progresses.
..) Daniel (the blue and yellow filters of both temporal story lines slowly merging into the same neutral lighting...), etc.

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All great examples.

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I think Network is no exception. The acting style of most of the cast is indeed bigger-than-life and on the "loud" side (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxqkrmkhrjw)

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I LOVE that scene. Duvall's big moment. I think I posted on it somewhere on the Network board.

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but I don't think the direction style itself is flashy at all.

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Well, Network was meant to be "A Film By Paddy Chafefsky" -- HE was the auteur, with his words, much like Tarantino and Aaron Sorkin are today. But Lumet gave Paddy a much better looking and more dynamic film than Hiller did.

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Lumet is undoubtedly a greater director than Hiller though. No question.

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Yep. I'm sure Hiller got rich and was respected as a "man to do the job" and I expect that Love Story REALLY kept him in demand for a few years(he did the hit Silver Streak in 1976, totally "un-gritty" not like The Hospital at all.)

Lumet made his name with "the New York movies"(starting with 12 Angry Men) and with all the stars he worked with(Connery and Pacino really seemed to like him), all the classics he made and -- how he worked well into his 80's, when the Academy finally gave him an achievement award. His final film -- Before the Devil Knows You're Dead -- is rough and tough and New York(and,surprisignly for an "old man" very erotic.)

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And maybe that's "the dark side of auteurism." We know what a Hitchcock movie looks like; what a John Ford movie looks like; we know what a Tarantino movie SOUNDS like, and both Scorsese and Spielberg had/have visual styles that mark them.
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Indeed... or a Michael Mann, Brian De Palma or Kubrick film for that matter, all recognizable after a few shots only. Critiques seem to often have a hard time recognizing as "auteurs" directors who do not possess an easily/immediately recognizable style from film to film.
Also Lumet had a much larger output than most of the aforementioned directors (except for Hitchcock and his 53 films) with -fatally- quite a few duds in his filmography.

What was so great about many of Lumet's best films I think (especially 12 Angry Men, Dog Day Afternoon, Serpico, Prince of the City, The Verdict Q&A, Night Falls on Manhattan, Daniel, Running on Empty, Before the Devils Know You're Dead...) is that they constitute a cinema of "deliberation", so to speak. But you have to consider his filmography as a whole to see that. Watching these films in sequence, you can clearly see how Lumet's conception and understanding of justice evolves, becomes more complex, leaves room for doubt and the possibility of compromise (which is also why I think 'Prince of the City' is his great masterpiece and one of the best pieces of dialectical film-making about deliberation).

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Indeed... or a Michael Mann, Brian De Palma or Kubrick film for that matter, all recognizable after a few shots only. Critiques seem to often have a hard time recognizing as "auteurs" directors who do not possess an easily/immediately recognizable style from film to film.

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Its rather weird how auteurism "manifests." I can HEAR it in the scripts of Chayefsky, Tarantino, and Sorkin -- they repeat phrases and types of phrases. Woody in his prime had a recognizable joke style AND a visual style(not to mention those straight forward opening titles, always in the same typeface.)
I've recently seen a trailer for Wes Anderson's next film and - boy, does it look and sound like a Wes Anderson film.

So I guess, no, Sidney Lumet doesn't really have an auteur's style with the exception of two "content components": all those NYC stories AND a lot of "cop on the take" stories: Serpico, Prince of the City, Q and A, Night Falls on Manhattan. Lumet said somewhere that he thinks corrupt cops should be the most important topic out there -- "if your police force is corrupt, you're through."

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Also Lumet had a much larger output than most of the aforementioned directors (except for Hitchcock and his 53 films) with -fatally- quite a few duds in his filmography.

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Yes, Lumet's sheer survival over the decades brought him respect. Though things like that thriller with Don Johnson and...some woman(I can't remember who) was rather bad -- it had the interesting idea of the heroine falling through the air in Johnson's arms and turning him in mid-air so he would hit the pavement first, cushioning her fall and shattering his skull. It was unbelievable but...worked? For a bad movie.

Lumet also tried to avoid that NYC label by filming in LA(The Morning After), Boston(The Verdict..great movie), and on the Orient Express.

As to his duds, Lumet did a film interview once where he held up five fingers and said "You get one great movie(dropped on finger), two OK movies(dropped two fingers) and two bad ones(dropped all fingers.)" He saw it as the curse of the director who works a lot for hire.

I suppose for me, a key part of Lumet's long career is simply that -- he made a lot of my favorite movies. Off the top of my head: 12 Angry Men, The Anderson Tapes, Serpico, Orient Express, Dog Day, Network, The Verdict...that's plenty right there. And I recall really liking Night Falls on Manhattan, Q and A and Devil Knows Your Dead...though I can hardly remember a thing about them.

I'm "missing" a few Lumets: Daniel, Running on Empty..its like Scorsese with HIS non-crime films. I need to see these.



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What was so great about many of Lumet's best films I think (especially 12 Angry Men, Dog Day Afternoon, Serpico, Prince of the City, The Verdict Q&A, Night Falls on Manhattan, Daniel, Running on Empty, Before the Devils Know You're Dead...) is that they constitute a cinema of "deliberation", so to speak. But you have to consider his filmography as a whole to see that.

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I think what happens is that a director is drawn to material because he sees things he saw in earlier films, and wants to "go there again." With Hitchcock near the end, both Frenzy and Family Plot have structural similarities to Psycho -- I figure when Hitchcock read those later books, he "saw Psycho again in them," even though they were different stories(with a different psycho in one.)

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Watching these films in sequence, you can clearly see how Lumet's conception and understanding of justice evolves, becomes more complex, leaves room for doubt and the possibility of compromise (which is also why I think 'Prince of the City' is his great masterpiece and one of the best pieces of dialectical film-making about deliberation).

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Well, the first one(for which he was Oscar nommed right off the bat), "12 Angry Men" is all about doubt and the possibility of compromise isn't it? -- famously so! Shown in classrooms! So he made that same theme over and over.

Yikes! I've never seen Prince of the City all the way through. Something about my antipathy to Treat Williams(a star of short duration.) I will correct that!

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Well, the first one(for which he was Oscar nommed right off the bat), "12 Angry Men" is all about doubt and the possibility of compromise isn't it? -- famously so! Shown in classrooms! So he made that same theme over and over.
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Allow me to better rephrase my point and give examples.

Lumet started making films about singular “ideas” (of justice, etc.), i.e. where the ideas preceded the characters, and gradually went on to make films about the plurality of individuals, their complex moral choices and their relationship to those ideas, i.e. films where characters came first and deliberation about ideas was at the heart of the film.

Lumet, at the beginning of his career and in 12 Angry Men, believes absolutely in the idea of a justice system that "works", and that if there's at least a single virtuous man of some integrity (like Fonda’s juror number 9), then that is enough for the system to produce justice. Men doubt, but the justice system itself is by and large reliable, and accounts for the fallibility of men (reasonable doubt, etc.).

Serpico turns his corrupt colleagues in and there’s no doubt that his motivations are moral and that, even though he’s a (charismatic, because played by Pacino) asshole, he’s doing “the right thing” at great personal risk.

Then comes Prince of the City, about a (corrupt) cop turning in his corrupt buddies. But this time he’s played by Treat Williams, who is a competent but very bland actor (as you rightly pointed out) who precludes any a priori identification by the audience (a very deliberate choice Lumet talks about in “Making Movies”). The film leaves it up to the audience to decide for themselves whether he’s doing the right thing for the sake of justice, if he’s going for personal redemption, or if he wants to save his own corrupt arse.

In the Verdict -a film I adore (that backlit pinball opening sequence, that polaroid scene at the hospital…) as much as you seem to do- Paul Newman’s Frank Galvin has the epiphany that the justice system is not about “guaranteeing justice to the innocent” but about guaranteeing “a fair shake” at justice.

At the end of Night Falls on Manhattan, Andy Garcia’s Sean Casey tells the young aspiring ADAs about his own experience with the grey areas of the Law. How, sometimes, breaking the law is more just than upholding it (he withheld evidence in order to convict a suspect he knows is a felon and cop killer). That they shouldn’t prepare for a job where circumstances are black and white because they’re going to spend most of their times in the grey areas, which is where they’ll come face to face with who they really are, a frightening thing to do that might take a lifetime to figure out. He tells them how they’ll come about cases where they’ll have to make deals in order to produce the best approximation of justice. He explains how he still has complete faith in the law, but also knows he’s completely fallible.


I think Lumet's body of work is so invaluable precisely because, even though he's not the first "auteur" to recurrently come back to some themes of predilection (in his case, justice and corruption), one can clearly see his own thought on these themes evolving film after film, and becoming more nuanced, more complex, leaving room for doubt and deliberation, and asking the audience that they do "some work of their own".

At the end of 12 Angry Men and Serpico everything is solved. Justice was carried-out (at a price, but the system "worked").
At the end of Prince of the City, Night Falls on Manhattan, Running on Empty, Daniel, etc. it's much more arduous to be certain about who was right, and whose motivations were just or morally justifiable (then and now).

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Allow me to better rephrase my point and give examples.

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Absolutely. A pleasure to read...

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Lumet started making films about singular “ideas” (of justice, etc.), i.e. where the ideas preceded the characters, and gradually went on to make films about the plurality of individuals, their complex moral choices and their relationship to those ideas, i.e. films where characters came first and deliberation about ideas was at the heart of the film.

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Yes, perhaps with maturity, Lumet felt that characters should matter over "the plot and the theme." Or at least they could express the plot and the theme.

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Lumet, at the beginning of his career and in 12 Angry Men, believes absolutely in the idea of a justice system that "works", and that if there's at least a single virtuous man of some integrity (like Fonda’s juror number 9), then that is enough for the system to produce justice. Men doubt, but the justice system itself is by and large reliable, and accounts for the fallibility of men (reasonable doubt, etc.).

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Well, that jury and THAT juror are perhaps too representative of "compromise being earned, one man at a time" - but its a great concept. The joke that has emerged from that movie is that it created a lot of hung juries because there was "always somebody who thought they were Henry Fonda" on the jury. I have always like that Fonda's MAIN target for a vote change seems to be the methodical and fact-finding EG Marshall. Once HE switches...its over. Emotion alone doesn't take over.



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Serpico turns his corrupt colleagues in and there’s no doubt that his motivations are moral and that, even though he’s a (charismatic, because played by Pacino) asshole, he’s doing “the right thing” at great personal risk.

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Well oftimes, its the assholes who do the right thing, who don't take things lying down. That movie got into that. Scary movie, though.

Trivia: The Serpico story was pitched first to Newman and Redford, I think one of them as Serpico and the other as the fairly good cop played by Tony Roberts. Newman and Redford struck gold twice, to be sure, but they stayed elusive about trying a third one. They were also offered The Man Who Would Be King by John Huston. Newman had worked with Huston and was his friend but noted: "Its got to be Connery and Caine." And it was.

Am I correct that Serpico was Lumet''s FIRST "corrupt cop reform" movie?

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Then comes Prince of the City, about a (corrupt) cop turning in his corrupt buddies. But this time he’s played by Treat Williams, who is a competent but very bland actor (as you rightly pointed out) who precludes any a priori identification by the audience (a very deliberate choice Lumet talks about in “Making Movies”).

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I read(and loved) Lumet's book -- which seemed to offer all these great insights into how a director REALLY works -- but I don't remember his comments about Treat Williams.

I DO remember that Treat Williams rather kept me from seeing that movie while it was in theaters. I had not liked him in 1941.

When I think about, I suppose it was the STARS rather than Lumet himself who got me into many Lumet movies. Sean Connery(The Anderson Tapes, Orient Express.) Pacino(Serpico.) Holden(mainly) and everybody else in Network(Peter Finch was a revelataion, and Duvall was flamboyant for once, pre Apoc Now and The Great Santini.) Paul Newman in The Verdict. (BTW, Lumet offered Newman "any role" in Network, but I figure Newman saw that as a trap -- Howard Beale trumped the Holden character, but the Holden character WAS the lead.)

The film leaves it up to the audience to decide for themselves whether he’s doing the right thing for the sake of justice, if he’s going for personal redemption, or if he wants to save his own corrupt arse.

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I'd say with a corrupt cop...all of those options apply if they "turn."

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In the Verdict -a film I adore (that backlit pinball opening sequence, that polaroid scene at the hospital…) as much as you seem to do-

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Oh, I love The Verdict. Its great Boston look(purposely designed by Lumet among tones of Gothic and Granite.) Its mood. Its music. Jack Warden's fine performance as the crusty, not terribly prosperous lawyer who knows Newman got a raw deal and tries to help him. James Mason as a rich, powerful villain of opposing counsel. And everybody else.

But mainly Newman...fully reactivating his career in a role first taken by the now-bigger star, Redford(irony, eh?) But Redford wanted the character "cleaned up" and Newman was willing to play him all broken down. Newman says the character starts the movie "with his head in the toilet(symbolically); I say that Newman conjures up a vision of a broken man -- he plays the role like a scared rabbit. He should have won the Oscar that year, even with Gandhi and Tootsie in competish.

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Paul Newman’s Frank Galvin has the epiphany that the justice system is not about “guaranteeing justice to the innocent” but about guaranteeing “a fair shake” at justice.

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Its a tough tale -- things stack up against Newman, the other side cheats. (That's real, I suppose, in law.) Memorable: Paul Newman punches a woman in the face. She's a bad guy(or is she?), but...stars don't DO that. Its a movie that resonates -- and white-haired Newman looks great in a new way. (Trivia: an unknown Bruce Willis is int he gallery right behind Newman when the verdict is read.)

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At the end of Night Falls on Manhattan, Andy Garcia’s Sean Casey tells the young aspiring ADAs about his own experience with the grey areas of the Law. How, sometimes, breaking the law is more just than upholding it (he withheld evidence in order to convict a suspect he knows is a felon and cop killer).

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I remember seeing and liking Night Falls on Manhattan -- and knowing it was a Lumet film. Damned if I can remember the details of the film. I recall Richard Dreyfuss was in it(so rarely used since the 70's well; he was good). And I recall James Gandolfini making a good impression -- BEFORE the Sopranos.

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That they shouldn’t prepare for a job where circumstances are black and white because they’re going to spend most of their times in the grey areas, which is where they’ll come face to face with who they really are, a frightening thing to do that might take a lifetime to figure out.

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Ain't that the truth, says this writer right here, of a certain older age.

And that's what is good about Lumet's take on corruption and the law.

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He tells them how they’ll come about cases where they’ll have to make deals in order to produce the best approximation of justice. He explains how he still has complete faith in the law, but also knows he’s completely fallible.

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By now, I think many non-lawyers know how the criminal system works: let's make a deal. Plead guilty to a lesser offense, or go down for one murder but not five others. Justice gets done, but it isn't always fair or perfect or satisfying. And of course, Lord help the wrongly accused person...

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I think Lumet's body of work is so invaluable precisely because, even though he's not the first "auteur" to recurrently come back to some themes of predilection (in his case, justice and corruption), one can clearly see his own thought on these themes evolving film after film, and becoming more nuanced, more complex, leaving room for doubt and deliberation, and asking the audience that they do "some work of their own".

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Yes --its a long way from "12 Angry Men"(in which the possibility that the kid DID do it is rather cast away) to Night Falls on Manhattan. And Q and A(I remember Nolte's scary perf in that one). And Before the Devil Knows You're Dead.

Didn't Lumet do a courtroom drama with VIN DIESEL? I'll check imdb. I didn't see it.

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At the end of 12 Angry Men and Serpico everything is solved. Justice was carried-out (at a price, but the system "worked").
At the end of Prince of the City, Night Falls on Manhattan, Running on Empty, Daniel, etc. it's much more arduous to be certain about who was right, and whose motivations were just or morally justifiable (then and now).

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Well, Lumet "got it." In a more "fluffy" way, Sidney Pollack made a few films with that point of view -- The Way We Were(on the witchhunts and Redford's ambivalence about them), Three Days of the Condor(Max von Sydow's cool no-sides-taken hit man) Absence of Malice(Newman right before the Verdict, against a corrupt press/govt plot.)

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I'm "missing" a few Lumets: Daniel, Running on Empty..its like Scorsese with HIS non-crime films. I need to see these.
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Oh, please do treat yourself and watch these two films (and then tell us what you think)! Running on Empty is up there with Lumet's very best work, and Daniel is the film of his he's on record saying he was the most satisfied with.

Both are also ABSOLUTELY thematically on point with the other Lumet films we discussed and are very much about justice and corruption (more precisely about the parents' sins being visited upon their offspring, and the gradual corruption of the ideals the parents upheld during their youth). I think it would be a mistake to compare them to Scorsese's "non-crime films" as they are very much congruent with the core of Lumet's cinema.

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I'm "missing" a few Lumets: Daniel, Running on Empty..its like Scorsese with HIS non-crime films. I need to see these.
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Oh, please do treat yourself and watch these two films (and then tell us what you think)! Running on Empty is up there with Lumet's very best work, and Daniel is the film of his he's on record saying he was the most satisfied with.

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Well, I tell ya. A "self confrontation" with a lifetime of movie watching tells me that I wasn't really a "film buff." I was a thriller buff(first, from Hitchcock to Charade to Wait Until Dark), then an action buff(from Dirty Harry to Die Hard), and often a Western buff. In short: genre.

But really good dramas -- with really good stars and writing - could lure me in, too. Network is one. The Hospital(which has murder thriller overtones) is another.

And comedies, of course, though I rarely have found one with enough "meat on the bones" for true greatness. Animal House, maybe. MASH. Some Like It Hot Love and Death.

Stars are/were a draw, too. i don't recall the stars of Daniel and Running on Empty, so I guess they weren't big enough to bring me in.

BUT THIS: I have some later years left and I expect to "catch up" on a lot of unseen movies, read up on a lot of unread books. I'll put Daniel and Running On Empty on the list.

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Both are also ABSOLUTELY thematically on point with the other Lumet films we discussed and are very much about justice and corruption (more precisely about the parents' sins being visited upon their offspring, and the gradual corruption of the ideals the parents upheld during their youth). I think it would be a mistake to compare them to Scorsese's "non-crime films" as they are very much congruent with the core of Lumet's cinema.

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Well, that's important...a director's "themes" can manifest in different ways, crime Or non-crime. (Although as I recall, the protagonists of these Lumet films were accused of POLITICAL crimes.)

I'll take a look at them. I'll talk about them..someday. Sooner rather than later.

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Lumet said somewhere that he thinks corrupt cops should be the most important topic out there -- "if your police force is corrupt, you're through."
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True.
But he also frequently quoted one of his technical advisers and inspiration for Prince of the City's protagonist, who said "10% of all cops are absolutely corrupted and will always take a bribe. 10% of cops are absolutely incorruptible and will never break the law. 80% of cops fall somewhere between both ends of that spectrum."
Then Lumet added: "The cop who told me that was an outstanding cop, one of the most decorated of the NYPD. He was also absolutely corrupted."

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True.
But he also frequently quoted one of his technical advisers and inspiration for Prince of the City's protagonist, who said "10% of all cops are absolutely corrupted and will always take a bribe. 10% of cops are absolutely incorruptible and will never break the law. 80% of cops fall somewhere between both ends of that spectrum."
Then Lumet added: "The cop who told me that was an outstanding cop, one of the most decorated of the NYPD. He was also absolutely corrupted."

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Absolutely corrupted. You know, thematically all of this is at the heart of one of my favorite movies -- LA Confidential -- in which some very corrupt cops end up doing very noble things in opposition to even MORE corrupt cops.

Its interesting to see that evren if Lumet felt corrupt cops were a terrible thing in society -- he "got" that they came in degrees, and that even corrupt cops could be heroic.

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Hollywood movie making voters didn't much cotten to NYC based movie makers.
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Except maybe for Woody Allen, another quintessential NY filmmaker: best director '77 ('Annie Hall'), three times best original screenplay ('77 with 'Annie Hall', '86 with 'Hannah and her Sisters', 2011 with 'Midnight in Paris').

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Hollywood movie making voters didn't much cotten to NYC based movie makers.
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Except maybe for Woody Allen, another quintessential NY filmmaker: best director '77 ('Annie Hall'), three times best original screenplay ('77 with 'Annie Hall', '86 with 'Hannah and her Sisters', 2011 with 'Midnight in Paris').

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You got me!

Well, perhaps I read too much propaganda about Lumet and Scorsese not getting Oscars because of the NYC thing -- Scorsese's losses for Raging Bull and GoodFellas seemed to stoke that (his winner, The Departed, was Boston-set.)

And with Woody, maybe it was something like with George C. Scott: Woody didn't WANT the Oscars...so they gave them to him(and as a protest against Star Wars in 1977, a lot of old timers hated that movie, I met them at the time.)

Once Woody was "in the club," they kept awarding him, and he kept not showing up - until he came to the Oscars after 9/11 which gave me mixed feelings: (1) How wonderful that THIS is what brings him to the Oscars or (2) How ARROGANT that he made 9/11 all about him at the Oscars. I don't know the true answer.

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And now, some discussion:
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Yes. I miss the IMDb days of polite yet heated and opinionated film discussions with Franzkabuki (RIP), AskTheAges, TheReverendHarryPowell et al.

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and I DO think the visuals of the Ned Beatty scene feel like auteur-time.
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At least enough to have inspired several other sequences shot in corporate conference rooms in various films and TV series (i.e.Better Call Saul...).

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It was a time of Eurofilm-influenced "jump cuts" and flashbacks and flashforwards.
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Indeed. What a fascinating era sandwiched between the Classic Hollywood era and the New Hollywood, when the "real action" was in Italy, France, Japan and their respective New Waves.
An era that begat jewels like Frank Perry's 'The Swimmer', another film shot in '66 (though released in '68), also all over the place stylistically; and a bridge between classic and new Hollywood, technically a year before 'The Graduate' (Perry's curse was that he was often too early or too ahead of his time...).

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And now, some discussion:
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Yes. I miss the IMDb days of polite yet heated and opinionated film discussions with Franzkabuki (RIP), AskTheAges, TheReverendHarryPowell et al.

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I know those names, but I didn't interact much with them. I READ them all the time. I kind of work a limited little world of my own, I think.

Some have survived here to moviechat, but no, its not the same...but as Edmond O'Brien says in The Wild Bunch, "it'll do." And I mean that in a very positive way.

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and I DO think the visuals of the Ned Beatty scene feel like auteur-time.
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At least enough to have inspired several other sequences shot in corporate conference rooms in various films and TV series (i.e.Better Call Saul...).

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Yes, I think that's true. That's such a great standalone scene in Network. Another great speech -- set in a great visual setting(the major NYC library, I believe, when corporate boardrooms didn't give the same effect.)

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It was a time of Eurofilm-influenced "jump cuts" and flashbacks and flashforwards.
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Indeed. What a fascinating era sandwiched between the Classic Hollywood era and the New Hollywood, when the "real action" was in Italy, France, Japan and their respective New Waves.
An era that begat jewels like Frank Perry's 'The Swimmer', another film shot in '66 (though released in '68), also all over the place stylistically; and a bridge between classic and new Hollywood, technically a year before 'The Graduate'

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I grew up around those films -- my family actually took us kids to see some of them -- and then when I was older I gave them a "full sampling" in revival and on VHS.

Its pretty clear that a bunch of American studio directors saw foreign films as their muse -- they really used those techniques. The Swimmer is a perfect example(with a touch of "NYC" film even though it is in Cheever country.)

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(Perry's curse was that he was often too early or too ahead of his time...).

I recall the name; he had some prominence for awhile, but "ahead of one's time" can be a problem, can't it?

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The "Mad Men" series tried a little experiment as the series moved from its 1960 opening year on to its 1970 finale: the early episodes were filmed in classic "Hitchcock style"(with, in the second season, a Hitchcock reference in each episode; as when Don Draper was dressed like Cary Grant at the Glen Cove police station), and then as the series moved into 1966 and 1967, jump cuts and flashbacks and fantasy sequences were used more and more. A 1968 episode had an Ode to 2001 scene. Thus did Mad Men try to reflect the "cinematic styles of the 50s and 60's" as well as the historical events.

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