Just thinking about the end of Act I where Motel & Tzeitel's wedding was interrupted by the pogrom. It is really hard to believe that only a couple of hundred years ago, it was actually encouraged by governments of different countries to commit such acts of vandalism against different ethnic groups!!!
Amazing the evil we humans can do to one another!!!!
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Actually just a little over a hundred years ago. And the Holocaust was later than that.
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Yes, it is just so sad that it took a mass genocide like the Holocaust to open the eyes of the various governments in Europe how evil it was to persecute minorities in their own countries (with pogroms, etc).
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Christian churches were the main instigators of pogroms. Martin Luther hated Jews, and his attitudes influenced much of what happened later in Germany...a dark secret modern protestants don't like to talk about. The Catholic church forced Jews in Rome to live in a ghetto for centuries, their leader was forced to abase and humiliate himself in front of the Pope every year to retain the privilege of living there at all. Pogroms against Jews were carried out since the early middle ages in Europe, always with the blessings of religious leaders. The abuses in Russia in the late 19th-early 20th century were nothing new, just more shocking to some at the time, since open pogroms had ceased long since in Western Europe.
shareWow, from reading this and a couple of other posts you are really into the 'Christians are the main persecutor of Jews theme', that is very simplistic and untrue. I don't deny that Martin Luther had a very unenlightened and incorrect view of the Jews but both the Nazi and the Muslim Arab hatred of Jews is not Christian based at all.
shareWho is being simplistic? The Nazi hatred of Jews was based on the widespread and endemic anti-Semitism prevalent in Germany for centuries, MUCH of which derived from the attitudes of the Lutheran and Catholic churches. It WAS christian-based, because it was "christians" that fostered it in the first place, the Nazis just played it up for all it was worth. Anti-Semitism in the west has always been "christian-based", there is no other context for it since Jews are not a race.
The so-called "Muslim hatred" of Jews is way overstated. Muslim societies over the centuries generally treated Jews MUCH better than any "Christian" kingdom or nation did, Jews were generally allowed autonomy in their own affairs, and while not integrated into muslim society, they were not the victims of pogroms like they were in Europe. Jews fought on the side of the Muslims during the crusades and during the era of Muslim rule in Spain, among others. The supposed "hatred" of Jews in modern times centers around the modern political state of Israel, which has been in military conflict with much of the Arab world over land seizures and conquests dating to it's creation as a political state. This is a more complex situation than simple religious intolerance. Many Arabs view Israel as a political anachronism, not a religious intrusion, since Jews predate the presence of Islam in Palestine.
I have myself to blame because I brought up two rather different topics, the Holocaust and the quite obvious Muslim hatred of Jews. For now I will focus on the latter for the sake of clarity but I will address the former after this topic has run its course.
Muslims were rather tolerant of Jews as long as they knew their place as a minority. Muslims have a very strict and obnoxious requirement of laws that intrude on peoples personal beliefs such as the requirement to acknowledge Mohamed as a prophet as well as anti-blasphemy laws.
I have to ask you why the modern state of Israel should be such an affront as to require a new persecution and exodus of Jews from such far flung places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq. If Muslims are so much more tolerant than Christians then why are Arabs so infuriated by the presence of such a tiny state in the Mediterranean to the point where hundreds of thousands of Jews feel the need to leave Arab lands.
Put yourself in their place. Arabs had lived in and controlled Palestine politically for many centuries. Under the British Mandate the status quo was largely maintained. Then we have the Zionist movement and the calls for a "return" of Jews to a homeland the vast majority of Jews had no connection to. Then comes the Holocaust, and a quilty Europe needs a "place" for the Jews to call their own. Anti-Semitism remains a force in Europe, most Jews don't want to live in nations they feel betrayed them. They emigrate to Palestine in huge numbers, displacing the native populations. They declare the "state" of Israel when Arabs refuse to accede to it's existence. War breaks out, hundreds of thousands are displaced and end up outside the new state, or are pushed off their traditional land by Jewish settlers. Hundreds of thousands live in refugee camps, people without a country. Hundreds of thousands more live under what is essentially a state of occupation. This is not a debate of what religion is better, or morally superior (I detest them all equally). The current state of affairs is the result of a political compromise that nobody accepted. As for how Jews were treated historically, they fared no better in Europe than they did in the Islamic world, and often worse. Either way, two wrongs don't make a right. Naturally Jews will leave Arab countries where they are not particularly liked when they can go to a country with a much better standard of living, a fully developed welfare state, and a fairly free political system...who wouldn't?
shareThere is so much wrong with your post in how you are white washing the arab position, 'war breaks out' (all of the arab countries declare war), 'naturally Jews will leave arab countries where they are not particularly well liked' (but you just told us how well liked and treated they were by the Muslims, there was a surge of anti-Jewish violence driving them out of those countries). I could go on but I just couldn't resist revealing some of your rather obvious white washing of events.
There was no massive displacement of muslims arabs as a result of Jewish immigration prior to the 1948 war, that is a fact. There already was a large Jewish population before the holocaust survivors arrived as a result of immigration prior to WW2 to a mostly desolate region. After the war there was something on the order of 500k refugees. So this is where your theory breaks down.
1. The violence against Israel occurred before the refugees so the refugee problem cannot be the just cause of the modern Arab outrage against Jewry.
2. The Arab's don't act like they particularly care all that much about these refugees that this is a big motive for them. a) they don't let them resettle on their own lands, b) The U.S. has given them more financial aid then they have and most the of aid is in the form of weapons to fight proxy wars for them, c) when Iraq throws scuds at Israel to earn brownie points with his neighbors it has as much a chance of killing arabs as jews.
#2 here is not a debated on the justness of the war but an analysis of the motive of why all of the Muslim countries in the middle east demonstrate such an obvious hatred for Jews and showing that love for their brethren is not a serious consideration. Some may indeed really care about the Palestinians but it does not explain the systematic and universal state of war with such far flung countries like Iran and Iraq which don't even border Israel.
Btw I have a theory but I did not want to muddy the waters with it yet.
If you think I am condoning Arab actions against Jews you are wrong. I didn't say they were necessarily liked or respected, I said they were often treated better, which is a very different thing. Most Arab states historic and present have the Islamic religion as a large part of government, and give it precedence and legal standing that other religions do not have. Islam is not a tolerant religion in most Islamic states, as we would define it. I do not approve. But then, Israel is a state that gives precedence to the Jewish religion, to the exclusion of others, though I will grant that they are far more tolerant in general. I am also very aware that Israel is a modern democratic state founded by Europeans, with European political traditions, and quite different from the many Arab states around it, most of which evolved as post-colonial arbitrary divisions of land always ruled by some empire. Most of them have not made a transition to full democracy, nor do they have what we might call an "open" society. Many of them are ruled by regimes that have ruthlessly used the Israeli-Arab conflict to distract their populations from issues like political freedom, economic growth, etc. This does not excuse Israel's equally ruthless actions in grabbing land not traditionally theirs, evicting the Palestinian occupants, launching military attacks in civilian areas, bulldozing houses and orchards by the thousand, and generally making life miserable for the people forced to live around them. Building the giant wall around the country is another example...it's hard to imagine coexistence between nations that need a 25-foot concrete wall between them.
shareI have already responded to your theory, here is my theory on why the state of Israel is such an affront to the Muslim countries of the M.E. to the point of stirring up hatred, persecution, and a modern exodus of Jews from those countries. Basically, the Arab and even Persian Muslims are fine with Jews and even Christians living among them as long as they are a small cowering minority that sufficiently licks their boots and follows Sharia law much how they are fine with woman as long as they don't show their ankles or drive.
The state of Israel throws them over the edge because it forces them to see Jews living as peers in their own back yard and they will not accept them as neighbors or acknowledge their legitimacy. They will accept military coups and massacres among their own kind but not a Jewish state no matter how small. The Arabs can only accept the subservient kind of Jews.
Earthman gets a little under my skin because I am willing to acknowledge that Christians did the same thing but for some reason he wants to persist in telling the myth of the virtuous Muslim as if they are somehow free of human foibles.
What's offensive about your statement is that you say "Arabs" like they are some kind of homogenous group that moves and thinks as one. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have known many people from the middle east, including Palestine and Iran. Religion has never been a topic, and most of them have struck me as not particularly religious at all. They don't talk about Jews being bad. You know who does? Red blooded native-born Americans. I have heard more anti-Semitic ranting coming from born-and-bred US citizens than I have ever heard coming from any Muslim, either here or in the middle east, and I still hear it. Prejudice flourishes among the ignorant, no matter where they live. And let's not forget that the messages of tolerance and brotherhood flowing from Christian leaders are largely a phenomenon of recent decades, the decades of liberalization and civil rights movements. Formal Christianity is just jumping on the bandwagon before it passes them by, which is not hard to understand considering how real religion is fading away as a force that can control people's lives.
And if you want to discuss cowering minorities, this would be the perfect country to do it in, with our sad history of racial intolerance.
You are very being very disingenuous with your latest post complaining about ME talking about the Arabs as if they are a monolithic group after your tome on how the modern state of Israel justifies hostility in the M.E. and giving a list of grievances as if they were a monolith. In fact, I believe you used the phrase, 'look at if from their perspective ...' talk about treating them like a monolith. In the context of my post I was specifically talking about the Muslim Arab (and Persian) countries in the Middle East and you know that. There is vicious anti-Jewish hatred in the M.E., as bad as the stuff that was coming out of Europe. You can try to deflect that all you can but it is true. Did I say all Arabs everywhere hate Jews with a passion, of course I did not.
Regarding what you are calling the recent Christian tolerance towards Jews, as a different poster pointed out, after the Holocaust, many Christians decided it was time to take a strong stand against anti-semitism and to root out such false teachings that encourage it. Unfortunately the Muslim Arab (and Persian) countries of the M.E. chose to embrace Anti-Jewish hatred with the establishment of Israel for the basest of human reasons and I will repeat my theory. They do not want to embrace Jews as peers and equals in their back yard, this is the primary reason they hate Israel and it does not matter how small or how little land they have. Their presence is an anathema.
I'm not "justifying" anything. I do not approve of violence or warfare, but it would be naive to think that violence and warfare could not but be the result of political events in the middle east that resulted in the creation of Israel. If Israel and the Palestinians left each other alone and coexisted peacefully, nothing would make me happier. That cannot happen when the situation is as manifestly unjust as what has been taking place there for decades. I am a great admirer of Israel. I think they are an amazing nation in many respects. That does not excuse the bad things they do. They are not saints. I feel the same way about this country (the US). We are an amazing country that has changed history. We are also very foolish and naive in the way we approach our relations with the rest of the world, we act irresponsibly. I don't hesitate to point that out when I see it. Modern "evangelicals" are always quick to jump on the Jewish "bandwagon" as it were, because of the ancient religious connection between Judaism and Christianity, while writing Islam off as a religion of war, conquest, and intolerance...ignoring the fact that for centuries Christianity was a religion of war, conquest, and intolerance. Don't confuse anti-Israeli feeling with anti-Jewish feeling, it's not the same thing. I've been accused of hating Christianity because of my criticisms. I don't dislike Christianity, I dislike the things people do in it's name, or for it's sake. There is a difference.
As far as the middle east situation goes, it's easy for us here in America to criticize and pontificate about events there and other places. We have never experienced occupation, repression, having our borders arbitrarily moved around, or having our very country mapped out of existence. The people of the middle east have.
it would be naive to think that violence and warfare could not but be the result of political events in the middle east that resulted in the creation of Israel.
What kind of sick mentality was it that forced millions of Poles out of Polish territory, and millions of Germans out of German territory? Those were things we signed off on after WW2 as well. Millions of people had to move because borders were arbitrarily redrawn. What kind of sick mentality was it that forced the American Indian off his land and on to reservations? I don't see anybody complaining about that, much less offering to fix it. Apparently the artificial transplantation of millions of people where they didn't live and were not wanted doesn't count? I get the feeling if 800,000 Arabs were forced out of their homes, you would have little to say on the subject. Oh wait, that already happened. It's interesting how, religion aside, the Arabs are somehow always wrong, always on the wrong side, always disreputable in some way, to certain viewpoints.
shareArabs were forced out of their homes, you would have little to say on the subject. Oh wait, that already happened.
let us accept the premise that the Arabs are correct what kind of sick mentality is it that would punish Jews living peacefully in those countries because of what Jews did in the state of Israel?
If you really think that the only Arab displacement happened in 1948, I can only describe that as naive, to say the least. Arabs have been displaced with every new Israeli settlement. Many were also displaced in the subsequent wars, especially in 1967. Arabs were and are being displaced right up to the present, including with the building of the outrageous wall around the country. I find it stunningly hypocritical that so many "Christians" defend these activities.
I never would defend the punishing or persecution of any people, nor their eviction from their property or nation. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's unfortunate if you somehow thought I was an apologist for the actions of those who have persecuted and expelled Jews from any country, I am not, and I condemn it. Trying to paint it as a purely religious or cultural issue ignores the political reality that is really at the root of it.
Thank you for your eloquence. I have enjoyed your contributions to this thread. It is high time the situation changed in the Middle East. Unfortunately, with the arrival of this new U.S. president, it won't change for the better any time soon.
Just think of the many citizens *from either side*, first and foremost the children, who will be victims of this new reality - but are not aware of it yet.
With all their oil money why didn't the Arabs set up
a Palestinian state?
The thread - with the subject 'My theory'
was on the topic of why the the Muslim Arabs of the Middle East could not accept the state of Israel. You never condemned the persecution of Jews living in Arab countries as an act of anti-Jewish hatred. I enjoyed how many times you danced around this topic and tried to change the subject and I am still baffled as to why you were incapable of criticizing even the most backwards thinking of Muslim theology but in any case, I encourage people to read that thread, 'My Theory', for themselves and to draw their own conclusions.
However, I promised to provide a non-simplistic explanation for the the Holocaust.
1. The Nazis were not Christians, they were pagans and racists, a Jew could not convert to Aryan.
2. The anti-Jewish hatred was a result of the fact that Jews tended to be both a visible and prosperous minority and simple minded people will scapegoat them for their troubles. They would scornfully look over the hill and blame the rich people for their problems. No less then Nietzsche, no friend of Christianity, made this observation.
I do not exonerate Christianity for the Holocaust because the 'Christian' nations of Great Britain and the United States would not give German Jews refuge while atheists like H.L. Mencken were encouraging asylum.
In Turkey rich Muslims were known to hire Jewish clerical workers up until World War I.
shareMany years ago I asked my Bubbe (grandmother) about pogroms. She said they happened more in the big cities than in small towns and rural areas. But she was from Lithuania, not Russia.
shareThat was by NO means a pogrom!! Awful as it was--looting, burning, destroying the wedding party--there was not a single moment where you saw anyone getting killed, raped or badly injured, no blood at all. It had to be violent enough to ease the authorities, to let them see that "these Christ-killers" were not being coddled, but it was most definitely NOT a pogrom!
shareYeah, that was a 19th century Russian version of fraternity pranks! Nobody got killed, and the shtetl was still standing when the assholes got tired of smashing things and wandered off.
No, the organized, government-sponsored persecution came at the end, when everyone in the shtetl was thrown out at once. Believe me, if they hadn't gone, a full-scale tacit-legal pogrom would have followed, with the kind of organized, serious destruction that didn't happen at the end of act 1.
Neat hill to die on.
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