MovieChat Forums > Ryan's Daughter (1970) Discussion > Ambiguous Ending ***Possible Spoiler***

Ambiguous Ending Possible Spoiler

posted 18 years ago by Harold_Robbins
23 replies | jump to latest

If you haven't seen the film, then please skip this post, as we don't want to endanger your enjoyment of it.

*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************

I was actually a little surprised that the film ended where it did and as it did, with the future of Rosy and Charles somewhat uncertain. I also expected some resolution concerning Rosy's father, but I think that might have been left up to the viewer's imagination (I personally think he would have commmitted suicide after Rosy and Charles left, and was almost expecting an off-screen gunshot - then again, two suicides in one film might have been a lit-tle too much - hence letting the audience decide).

Those of you who think you know everything should politely defer to those of us who actually do!

[–] rmoore66-1 18 years ago

Actually you make a good point. A great deal was left hanging. But the film was already 3.5 hr long as it was. There is a great deal more of the story left to tell. The stories of these characters could make a whole series of films. I am sorry they will never be made. So like you say, it will all be left up to the viewer's imagination. I enjoy thinking about what I would do with these characters if they were my intellectual property.

[–] Harold_Robbins 18 years ago

You make a very good point as well, and only now does it occur to me that RYAN'S DAUGHTER might actually have done better plot-wise as a mini-series on Masterpiece Theater - however, the scale of the production would no doubt have been considerably reduced.

Despite his skills as a film editor, Lean actually says in one of the vintage documentaries that he liked sequences with long silences and no dialog, of which RYAN'S DAUGHTER has several of, but somebody forgot to mention to him that, pretty as they may be (as is the endless sequence in the woods, with the bluebells...), such sequences often do nothing more than call attention to themselves rather than advance a film's plot, and can slow the pace to a crawl, which can severely try the audience's patience.

Those of you who think you know everything should politely defer to those of us who actually do!

[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 18 years ago

It depends on how deeply engrossed that audience is, n'est ce pas?

I didn't think one minute was too much.

The sequences were, to me, all a reflection of a state of mind and as such, they conveyed more than many dialogues could.

The bluebells sequence, for example: in my mind, this is in dialogue with one of Monet's picure of bluebells (named The Artist's Garden, if I'm not mistaken) and the sense I got from it is that something hopelessly fantastic - both in beauty, in experience and in not being remotely real - is about to happen. I'd cut off David Lean's arms if he took it out! It was one of the more perfect moments I've seen on film, when a movie is more than a medium. It's pure art.

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

[–] rmoore66-1 18 years ago

I agree. This film is not only one of the finest examples of the filmmakers art, I believe it is one of the great works of art ever. I hope more people come to agree with me this time around. Now that it is out on DVD, I hope new interest is generated in this film and it gets the attention it deserves and so lacked upon its initial release.

[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 18 years ago

Agreed. :)

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] christieg2 18 years ago

It appeared to me that his character was a despicable coward, who would have saved his own neck at all costs. See how he abandoned Rose to the villagers when he could have saved her with the truth. I think he probably lived on in the village scraping together whatever esteem he could until the end of his days. I have asked this before and I'm not certain yet, if Rose knew that he was responsible for betraying the villagers and allowing her to be blamed. I have never understood the critics describing Ryan's Daughter as a "little" story. I think it has many dimensions, not the least is the relationship between Rose and her father. (And I think that Rose and Charles lived happily everafter)

[–] rmoore66-1 18 years ago

I did not feel like she had any idea that he was the one who betrayed O'Leary and his men. I think she was totally clueless. I agree the relationship of the two is a story of its own. (The people who say this is a "little story" are folks with no imagination and who have to be hit over the head with something before they can become aware of it.) Due to Charles' being so much older than Rose, I wonder how long "everafter" would be. He may have died in he influenza pandemic. She may have returned to the village. Perhaps Doryan did not really die. Could he have staged his death so that he could disappear and avoid having to deal with myriad issues? Could he show up again in the future? Who else did he leave behind? Gosh, I could go on and on.

[–] christieg2 18 years ago

Hi rmoore! Happily everafter did not include the "influenza pandemic", that is being far too realistic! I don't think Doryan staged his death, with his physical disability, I think it would have been impossible for him to disappear from the scene unnoticed, as much as we all would prefer him to have lived. These days, he, and the many thousands who suffered so terribly from shell shock, would be treated for post-traumatic stress disorder with a strong possibility of recovery. It is Robert Mitchum's birthday today, and I am going to indulge myself with a viewing of Ryan's Daughter and I will ponder on all these issues. BTW I think you are right about Rose being clueless regarding her father's involvement.

[–] rmoore66-1 18 years ago

>These days, he, and the many thousands who suffered so terribly from shell shock, would be treated for post-traumatic stress disorder with a strong possibility of recovery.

This is very true. If you read much about WWI you have to wonder how anyone came out of the trenches in his right mind. It was very gruesome and what the soldiers experienced is almost beyond comprehension. Furthermore, the men who suffered what today we would call PTSD were treated with no understanding. They were treated as cowards and worse. Very sad. There was one hospital, Craiglockhart, that attempted to treat them, but it was very cutting edge at the time and only a few people, mainly officers, were treated at all.

[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 18 years ago

I'm certain she figured it out. There's this look she gives him that makes you realize she knows and she doesn't tell on him, even though she could. It's part of what makes her character quite amazing. Shows you how much stronger she is than her father and what she's capable of going through by choice. Her parting with her father, knowing this, not saying a thing, knowing that he's aware of the fact that she knows and him not saying a thing...

Wow. I just love this movie so much.

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

[–] jim-1031 18 years ago

Rosie knew her father was the double-crosser - You can tell this by the look she gives him as the mob are about to attack her.

Ryan would never have committed suicide - Too cowardly.

And its made pretty clear that when Rosie and Shaughnessy get to Dublin they will go their seperate ways.

[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 18 years ago

Agreed on everything...

... but the last count. I think that's the intention they both have when they leave, but the priest makes Charles doubt this is the right decision, and, well... I think when you see Charles' expression at the very ending you know that he doesn't know and that we have no real way of knowing.

I love that part because not only do I not know what's going to happen, I don't even know what I'd want to see happen. So incredibly awesome.

Man, I love this movie.

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

[–] rmoore66-1 18 years ago

I read somewhere that Sarah Miles has written her own sequel to this film and she would like to have it made. I have not read anything further and I do not know what, if any, her immediate plans are. It would be hard to imagine such a film even approaching the original for artistry. However, it would be interesting to see what she would do with the characters.

And I also really love this film.

[–] SheWillRememberYourHeart 17 years ago

From her comments on the DVD documentaries, I believe she would have had our heroine and her husband get back together, but to be truthful, I'm not sure I want things decided one way or another. Part of the movie's charm is how much it grips your imagination and how you're left pondering the different options in which things might have developed, without knowing anything for sure.

I think the priest at the end is meant to be voicing the audience's thoughts and to let us know it's alright that we have no clue what will happen, since neither do the characters themselves... :)

I used to have a , but damnit do I want a !

[–] angelosdaughter 9 years ago

Rosie knew. When the villager asked her father if he had cut the wires, the look on her face said it all. She had noted the expression on his face. Because he was her father, and would probably been lynched if he had been discovered or confessed to being the traitor, she said nothing. In a way she was the sacrificial lamb.
I agree; I think Rosie and Charles stayed together. The priest kept reminding Charles that he loves Rosie 'sorely', and he always agrees. And as they leave the village forever, Charles offers Rosie his arm as protection and comfort against the derision of the villagers. At send-off the priest tells Charles that his parting gift to him is that he knows that Rosie and Charles have the intention to part, but that he doubts that it is a good idea.

I could be a morning person if morning happened at noon.

[–] maveltre 16 years ago

I remember thinking it was not ambiguous. In a scene farther back, when Rosy told Charles "It's over.", I felt she was also saying her "romance" with passion was over, too, and not in a bad way. I did not think of it as being resigned, but that she was ready to find pleasure in the ordinary. I thought they would stay together. Life in the city would automatically have richer possibilities, and I assumed-maybe just wanted to believe-that things would balance out.

[–] shinock 16 years ago

I think the ending of the film served it's purpose: we're still talking about it almost forty years later! What I always wondered about Ryan was why was he an informer? He was very well off compared to the rest of the local people and by being an informer he was not only endangering himself but he was also putting Rosy's life in jeopardy and for what? His accent was also far from local and this was never explained. On the whole all these problems can be blamed on Robert Bolt and his screenplay which left us with a whole load of unanswered questions all the way through the film and, in a film of such length there was plenty of time to flesh out the charactors and fill in their backgrounds far better than was actually achieved.

[–] bagelbacherjerome 16 years ago

I remember reading a review that approached this. However, maybe this was just the reviewer's opinion. It is explained that Ryan views his fellow villagers as fools (this is the reason at the beginning of the film he doesn't want his daughter to marry one. This is also the reason Rosy marries the older teacher). Ryan fears that these ignorant villagers will try to use the munitions they have collected from the beach
on the British who are in their village. He fears that it will result in the deaths of many of the villagers. By informing on the new man in town (the one who tells the villagers to help him collect the crates of munitions), this man and his chums are the only ones who are killed.

Ryan doesn't admit to being the informer because he will be killed. Rosy gets punished, but she's not killed. In fact, right before they drag Rosy to the town square, one of the women who seems joyous at what is about to be done to Rosy says, "If it were a man, he'd be shot". Perhaps this explains her father's unwillingness to confess to being the informer. He's a coward, but it prevents him from being killed.

Where do they drag Rosy? Is it the town square? I say that because it seems the whole town is there to witness her punishment. The women in the town seem to have been waiting for the punishment of Rosy. They drag her outside and hold her down with glee. The young men seem to enjoy it most of all. They even follow her as she makes a quick getaway. They even yell at her when she's gotten inside. Why don't they just let her get away. She has gotten her punishment.

[–] shinock 16 years ago

To bagelbtheacherjerome, You know, the problem I and other Irish people of my generation have with this film, which is one of my favourites movies, is that all our lives we have been so immersed in the actual history of Ireland during the period in which the movie is set, that we find ourselves finding fault with various charactors and subplots which would exist in reality, but not of course in a work of fiction. I agree with most of what you have written, but I don't see how you can see such humanity in Ryans motives for being an informer, to save the lives of villagers?.. I hardly think so! From the very start of the movie his opinion of the "natives" is made very clear and, is there even one scene in the entire movie where the locals are seen enjoying themselves in Ryans pub? There seems to be very little interaction of any kind between Ryan and the villagers. The scene where the crowd punishes Rosy in the end of the movie is a further example of a fault which runs throughout the entire length of the film, i.e. badly handled crowd secnes. All the crowd scenes without exception were very poorly handled and it's hard to comprehend how a director as great as David Lean could possibly oversee such work. A famous playwright here in Ireland, Hugh Leonard, a man for whom I have no liking whatever, made one very telling comment regarding the crowd scenes in Ryans Daughter. Leonard said the crowd scenes were "deeply embarrassing" and I think he was perfectly correct in describing them in this way. This in my opinion is just as true for that scene invloving Rosy's punishment as it is for the village crowd scenes early in the film. I'm also not so sure that Ryan was such a coward: he came near to drowning trying to salvage the munitions during the storm but, I suppose he was driven by the guilt of being an informer on that occasion.

[–] bagelbacherjerome 16 years ago

It interests me that you and the playwright you mention don't see the crowd scenes as realistic. After being occupied, the French used to punish girls who collaborated with German soldiers by shaving their heads and marching them through the streets before hostile crowds who mocked them, shouted at them, and spat on them. The photos were taken during the daytime, and the crowds seem raucous, similar to the villagers in "Ryan's Daughter". The photos of the French women show that they have had their hair shorn, but they are wearing clothes. I get the impression that the French shaming didn't involve stripping.

From your description, in Ireland, the shamings were done at night by a small number of men. I understand you to say the excitement and joyfulness at how the women were to be punished wasn't what actually happened in Ireland during the era that "Ryan's Daughter" seeks to depict.

[–] Hecate-3 8 years ago

I got the impression that Rosy had been a focus of jealousy for the village women for most of her life. She was prettier then the rest of them, better educated than the rest of them, better off financially than the rest of them, and married to the best man in the village. She also had an affair with a foreign, enemy officer which gave everyone another reason to resent her.

They all knew darn well that they had no proof that Rosy was guilty of betraying anyone, but they were eager for the excuse to let loose with a lifetime of jealousy and resentment.

_____
Strip away the phony tinsel of Hollywood and you find the real tinsel underneath.

[–] moosefeathers 9 years ago

I was actually a little surprised that the film ended where it did and as it did, with the future of Rosy and Charles somewhat uncertain.

The priest gave the parting gift of Doubt...for all of us.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...