MovieChat Forums > Kelly's Heroes (1970) Discussion > Military buffs - point out all the error...

Military buffs - point out all the errors


I love this movie just as much as the next person - it's turn off brain, sit back, and enjoy. It still holds up after almost 40 years, and is a great way to spend 2 1/2 hours. But I'll bet there are absolutely a ton of errors, and I'm not even talking about the weight of the gold, the amount of boxes, the value of the gold, Oddball's non-existence in 1944, etc. Just military stuff.

I'll start us off:

There is no way a platoon (or two squads, whatever) of soldiers would have all been in their 30s and 40s in WW II, like all of these guys were. If you check the ages of the main actors, they are all oooollllldddd.




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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I just saw for the first time in at least 30 years. Obviously, the appearance and demeanor of Sutherland and the tank squad was definitely 1969, not 1944. And the "hippie" looks of their female companions and many of the town extras were also 1969-ish. I guess that went with "whatever goes" attitude of the era. Now, it looks cheesy and dated. Yeah, I know it's supposed to be tongue-and-cheek, but it just rings badly nowadays. Wonder if any critics commented an the anachronisms when the flick was released?

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Oddball may not have been out seriously out of place (and time) as one thinks. Notice who his men have sort of a gypsy look to them. Back then they called them Bohemians.

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coxm is dead on correct. My parents, who are from that era, had NO problem with Oddball's character - he and his men are classic bohemians. Bohemians, jazz hipsters, beats, and other counter culture types didn't start in the 60's, but way way earlier. Obviously they were trying to appeal to the youth market with the character of Oddball, but he wasn't a stretch.

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Not to mention, that *someone* had to "invent" that "California Surfer Dude" personality so common in the late 1960s. Why couldn't it have been someone like Oddball?

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The crew tank must have been on Ecstasy (hah-hah) Of course along with the wine and cheese.

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There are zero "errors" of realism.

1. It's a dramedy movie, not newsreel footage. Movie budgets are hard enough to manage without worrying about producing a factually perfect representation of a moment in time. Ever see a stage play? They paint stone walls on canvas, and make trees out of plaster. They aren't perfect, and they don't need to be.

2. It's an action adventure comedy, so there was NO intent of any presumed accuracy.

So your premise is shot in the ass to start with. Would you expect a fine art painting of a building, landscape, or vehicles to be dimensionally correct, or perfectly accurate in details? I would hope not, the point is to generate an entertaining emotional response, not document history.

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Dude, I stated first thing that I know it's only a movie and that I know exactly what kind of movie this is. I'm looking for some information here. Since you don't have anything interesting to contribute, why don't you go off and play with yourself somehwere else, and not bother us grownups.




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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The average age of a US soldier in WWII was 26. In Vietnam, 19.

So why would there "no way" be whole squads of guys in their 30s and 40s? You know this exactly how???

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That's a frequently cited stat that's wrong. The average age of a US serviceman in Vietnam was in fact twenty-two.

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

The minimum age for a draftee to get sent to Vietnam was nineteen. They were there for a year so all the nineteen year-olds would be twenty when they left. The NCO's, officers would be over nineteen by some years. NCO's would be guys who had been in the army for longer than most conscripts and officers needed to graduate university before being commissioned. That means Second Lieutenants who were at least twenty-two year-old. The more senior an NCO or officer, the older he would be. As well, quite a few soldiers were older than nineteen when they were inducted or volunteered.

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Mr. Smokestoomuch-

You don't by chance know Mr. & Mrs. Concrete? I have a bit of sheep problem in my house as well....

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[deleted]

Why don't you go get yourself a bucket of grits.

"Spock is the shiz-nit!"

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"You smell like a dung heap!"

"Kind of reminds you of home doesn't it?"

"Kinda does, huh, good buddy?"

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You boys smell like you fell into a dung heap.

Kinda makes you homesick, doesn't it?

It does, kinda, ole buddy.

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True, but the 35th was "blown all to hell" during operation Cobra (the break out) due to radio silence and bad briefings. Many of them were killed by our own AAC. Thank goodness it was "too lousy to fly!"

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-I think the Tiger tank commanders, particularly Karl Otto Alberty's character, seem to be missing the pink trim on their epaulets and jacket collars that I always see in WWII artwork depicting Panzer uniforms.

-The German troop carriers are TAM Pionirs, Yugoslavian trucks that weren't made until after the war. They're obviously standing in for Opel Blitzes. Considering the scarcity of Opel Blitzes and the fact the movie was made in Yugoslavia, I guess they just grabbed whatever "German-looking" trucks were available. I for one never noticed until someone else pointed it out.

-More an error on Cowboy's part than on the movie's, but Cowboy refers to a Volkswagen Kubelwagen as "a jeep." I guess US soldiers would consider Kubelwagens the equivalent to the Willys MB, but it still seems odd (and is part of a larger conceit now and then to call any vaguely Jeep-like offroad vehicle, from Land Rovers to Toyota Land Cruisers, "jeeps," when Jeep is a vehicle make, not a vehicle type).

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[deleted]

Cowboy referring to the Kubelwagen as a Jeep doesn't bother me at all. He sees a small 4 wheel drive vehicle, so he calls it a Jeep.

works for me.








"Whenever Mrs. Kissell breaks wind, we beat the dog."

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Kubelwagens were (almost) rebodied VWs so they were, except for a very few prototypes, rear-wheel drive, not four-wheel drive. Modern equivalent with no common parts was the VW "Thing" in the US.

According to Wikipedia, they did better than the reference 4wd vehicles the German army tested them against in snow, ice and deep mud.

But they do look a bit like 'Jeeps.'

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The BARs had 'pistol grips' instead of the USUAL trigger guard; maybe they could only find the FN version of the BAR rather than the 'classic' version?

NM

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Wow. I'm a big gun fan, and Browning's first and foremost. I didn't even know there was an FN model! Please shoot me a link on that model. And I thought I knew my guns; always something new to learn. thanks.

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Like Tony Montana would say, "Here choo are, meng":

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/fn-model-d-bar/

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Cowboy wasn't the sharpest knife in the hunting kit, but he knew when to bug out. As well, I doubt there were the same type of 'plane spotter playing cards' that were used the Pacific theater for German vehicles. He was a Texan, I've been there, and whatever soda you get is called a 'Coke'. Its just military short hand. A tank is tank, but a King Tiger is way more tank! (smile)

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I think there's no way the *beep* tank commander would have gone along with the plan in the first place but then it's just a movie and a darn good one! :)

Editing this to add that I am amazed the IMDb beeps out the old nickname we had for Germans in WW2 (the one that begins with the letter K and rhymes with route.) In fact you can't even spell it like I did Limey below with the dashes because that gets beeped too!

Does it beep Limey too? That's 'L-i-m-e-y' if it gets beeped. So how come Limey, Frog, Russki and Yank aren't beeped?

When you think of the offensive trolls running rampant on this site and never banned how do the IMDb admins justify beeping a few lame nicknames?

Anyhoo back to the show.

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Speaking personally. I never get offended at being called a Limey. I actually think that's a harmless name but yes it is weird that the K word that rhymes with route is blanked out here.

Frog gets a pass because it's the name of an animal so there isn't much they can do about that.

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-More an error on Cowboy's part than on the movie's, but Cowboy refers to a Volkswagen Kubelwagen as "a jeep." I guess US soldiers would consider Kubelwagens the equivalent to the Willys MB, but it still seems odd (and is part of a larger conceit now and then to call any vaguely Jeep-like offroad vehicle, from Land Rovers to Toyota Land Cruisers, "jeeps," when Jeep is a vehicle make, not a vehicle type).

Not so: the actual make of the vehicle is Willys and the term Jeep is the soldier slang defining this kind of transport, coming from General Purpose Vehicle (GPV)

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Yes, but now Jeep is a make. Willys doesn't exist anymore. I was speaking to the modern trend of people calling all offroad vehicles "Jeeps" when Jeep is a make and not a type.

I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?

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when the townspeople are all celebrating at the end,i'ts supposed to be in france, but there is a little boy waving a little nazi flag! oops!

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Maybe he was just happy the Tiger commander helped the allies (OK, bank robbers), but yeah, it was a huge goof.

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People here keep saying it's a 'goof' but its obviously done deliberately by the film makers to show the townsfolk celebrating and waving whatever was available, however inappropriate the flag was-a commentary on hyped up patriotism perhaps, as the film is pretty cynical about such things...as to military equipment/organization etc, the errors are too numerous to mention, as they usually are in most large scale war films made long after the event.

'What is an Oprah?'-Teal'c.

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There is no way a platoon (or two squads, whatever) of soldiers would have all been in their 30s and 40s in WW II, like all of these guys were. If you check the ages of the main actors, they are all oooollllldddd.


Kelly was formerly a Lieutenant, busted to Private because his platoon was ordered to attack the wrong hill, whiping out half a company of US soldiers, and there needed to be a fall guy, so it is understandable that he was over 30, having reached the rank of Lieutenant.

Some of them were Sergeants, so being a bit older is almost guarenteed.

Most of them were from a National Guard division, which are basically reserve units, so it should not be expected for them to all be young.

On a side note, I have always found it interesting that, despite being five years older, Clint Eastwood somehow looks younger in this film and in Dirty Harry (1971) than he does in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966).

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"On a side note, I have always found it interesting that, despite being five years older, Clint Eastwood somehow looks younger in this film and in Dirty Harry (1971) than he does in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966)."

Yes the Clint looks rather leathery in TGTBATU.

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I don't recall them mentioning the ages of any of the characters.

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So true. And I often see wrinkles and jowls on 22 year olds.




I asked the doctor to take your picture so I can look at you from inside as well.

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[deleted]

K rations were akin to dog food (So my late Grandfather said) but full of protean. And war can make you look old beyond your years. I used to booze it up a lot, and I have whiskey lines around my eyes. 1,000 yard stare anyone?

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One of the less noticed "errors" is that the Shermans are a post-war version. They're "E4" models.

The 76 mm armed Shermans the US produced during the war had the turret that was designed for the T23 tank. Post-war, they upgunned some VVS suspension Shermans using the original 75 mm turrets. They exported some of those to Yugoslavia in the 1950's.

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If the only reason it was filmed in Yugoslavia is the fact that they had the largest supply of Shermans, then why didn't they film in Ontario? The Ontario Regiment, RCAC, had Shermans until 1971, when it was forced to adapt the Centurion, making it the last armoured unit to use the Sherman.

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I think it was a combination of the geography of Yugoslavia looked adequately 'Somewhere in Central Europe' to pass for France; the ample supply of German Kit & Hardware & the ample supply of Allied Kit & Hardware---that and the Yugoslavs had lotsa multilingual extras & really brave stuntmen.

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I don't believe that was the only reason, or necessarily a reason at all. They could have got three Shermans in California as well. I don't think there were any vismod Tigers in North America at the time, though. Canada doesn't look much more like like Europe than Southern California and we didn't have much of a large-scale film infrastructure at that time anyway. They'd be paying close to American wages to make something that looked wrong. That's even leaving aside the fact that an E4 Sherman is a lot closer to what was used in 1944 than Canada's E8's.

By the way, the Militia never had Centurions. Indeed, I'm pretty sure by 1971 even the Regs had Cents only in Germany and Gagetown. Reserve units converted from tank to recce, first in three-quads then in jeeps.

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Rewatched it last night. I'm sure many of the folks who are still alive WISH they looked as good as they do here! Even Harry Dean Stanton looks kinda young.

"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."

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Well, a lot of "errors" were due to budget constraints. We see Germans holding Springfields and Americans holding Mosin-Nagants and Lee-Enfields, mostly for crowd scenes where you'd have to really look closely. A few prop guns are European stand-ins, like the Polish WZ. 35 VIS being used instead of the M1911A1, or the Belgian FN BAR Type D instead of the American BAR.

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First i love this movie and i am aware that it is a movie and not a documentary.

-How about the fact that no one in their right mind is going to use tigers to escort trucks trough France. Tigers where big heavy tanks, that are much slower then trucks. Also they where at that stage of the war extreme air raid magnets. Any German commander would just have used the trucks maybe with some half tracks for punch.

-The tigers are marked with the key logo of the liebstandarte, highly experienced veterans by that time no way would they park in the middle of town, for the very reason that Kelly states. (also their camouflage was pathetic). If I was to place the tigers to cover the town I would use the very spot that Kelly and the boys use for the little conference before the assault. Tree's and high ground with excellent views.

-Crack liebstandarte troops would have posted guards in the tower, no one is going to allow the enemy the high ground right next to that bank.

-around the town there would be patrols and more guards. Having fought in the east they would know there was no real safety anywhere, rear area or not.

-Why would there still be this much gold in France at this stage of the war, the Nazi's cleared out the banks back in 1940.

-No liebstandarte cuffs on the uniform sleeves. (mark of pride for Liebstandarte troops)

-Officers who just shrug when church bells start ringing, where very few and far between. Most likely the ringing would have been made illegal as soon as the Germans moved into town. Church bells ring for a few explicit reasons all of which would have raised serious concerns with the officers.

-MG42(German machine gun shooting at Kelly) makes the wrong sound.

-321th Engineers was in the Pacific theather not Europe (named during the discussion just before the game is on scene)

-the 35th was a NG unit which recuited troops from Kansas and Missouri, so what was a New York like Crapgame doing there.

-PS the fact that the heroes are somewhat long in the tooth fits with fact that they are a scout unit. Scout units would get the more steady troops.



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Seeing as everyone is being nitpicky it's odd that the 'Tiger' in autumn 1944 has early model features such as old type dustbin commander's cuppola, Feifel air pre-cleaners and smoke candle dischargers.....features never seen on any SS 101 (formerly Leibstandarte) Tigers in France 1944.

All Tiger Is in France 1944 had the newer commander's cuppola, no Feifels and no smoke candle dischargers. They were all mid production and late production models. Earliest model Tiger Is in France 1944 were from the October 1943 production and none had the old features mentioned. These old features were discontinued by October 1943.*

SS 101 lost almost all it's Tiger Is in Normandy by the end of August 1944.

Only 8 of their Tiger Is managed to get much further east than the River Seine. 3 were abandoned at Songeons (around 50 miles north of Paris), 1 was knocked out near Vernon (around 40 miles northwest of Paris), 2 were self destroyed at Brunehamel (about 100 miles northeast of Paris near the Belgian border), 1 was set on fire at St Quentin (about 90 miles northeast of Paris also near the Belgian border)and the last one was left behind at Marle (about 20 miles southeast of St Quentin).

By August 1944 all new Tigers delivered to the unit were King Tigers.

In early September 1944 (when Kelly's Heroes is set)SS 101 (formerly Leibstandarte) no longer had any Tiger Is and were instead getting ready to completely re-fit on the King Tiger in Germany. Gawd knows what 3 Tiger Is would have been doing east of Nancy.

*Saving Private Ryan oddly also has a SS 101 Tiger in France with the same features of an old model 1943 Tiger I. It's as if SPR looked at the 'Tiger' in Kelly's Heroes and copied them instead of the real photos of Tigers in France in 1944, none of which had these old outdated features.



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Crack liebstandarte troops would have posted guards in the tower, no one is going to allow the enemy the high ground right next to that bank.


The easy explanation for this is that apart from the Panzer crews, the troops in the town were regular Heer soldiers, judging by their uniforms. The only SS men present are the two officers, the NCO who blows the whistle, and the crews of the three Tigers.

I mean, really, how many times will you look under Jabba's manboobs?

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