Right, the Old Ones actualy invaded earth and made war on the Elder things. So that was Yog-Sototh, the Outer God who impregnates Lavinia? And Cthulhu and his race worship Yog-Sothoth? Cool! I haven't seen this film in years so my memory of it is a bit fuzzy. However, from what I know of the writings of Lovecraft and the Cthulhu mythos/religion and my memories of the film I will try to put togeather a picture of who the Old Ones are in the film, how they make themselves known and felt, and what they want with humanity (and all this business of human women mateing with non-corporial incubi). My personal interpretation is that the human Cthulhu cult members (specificaly the Wateley family) depicted in the film have, over generations, interbred with Yog-Sothoth in order to create a new race as well as use the Necronomicon (the central book of the Cthulhu cultus) to open up the gateways or bariers between worlds so that the Old Ones can cross over at times when the astrological alignments are just right. Yog-Sothoth is known in the Mythos as THE KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY. It's possible that Wilber's twin brother raped (and either murdered or impregnated; we don't know which...) Elizathen Hamilton and Wilber himself also caried the blood of Yog-Sothoth in his veins but, both these individuals were only half breed sons of Yog-Sothoth and a human woman (Lavinia Whately). When Yog-Sothoth mates with human femails the 'unholy' sponn of such unions can range from completely human in appearance, simi-human, or (like Wilbur's brother) almost non-corporial and often beyond the range of human perception to detect (much like the Old Ones themselves). Further, it isn't enough to allow these hybrids to purpetuate Yog-Sothoth's line as this would, eventuly, delute the bloodline (which is so essential to purpetuating the cult and working its magic). So, to keep the bloodlines of Yog-Sothoth strong in the cultish community it was necessary-once every generation, to bring in a new woman (young, healthy) to breed with Yog-Sothoth directly (such as was the fate aparenlty planned for Nancy Wagoner [as had happend to Lavinia Wately a generation before her]). The Old Ones defeated the Elder Things (mentioned in THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS)in primordial times before humanity had evolved into a seperate species let alone had learned to walk upright. Over the aions, however, the stars grew out of alighnment and forced the Old Ones (who were magical beings after all and thus dependent upon the alighnment of the stars in order to maintain their forms and wield their power)to retreate to relms beyond our diminsions of space and time. However, the Old Ones wish to return to our world; wish to rule again but need their human followers in this world (organized into cults) to help them cross over with the use of the NECRONOMICON. The old white haired witches (interesting that Lavinia's hair also turned white)in Nancy's dream may represent these cult members (many of whom have interbred with Yog-Sothoth). However, It's also possible that the Old Ones might have appeared as old naked white-haird witches in Nancy Wagoners dream simply because she had not the common frame of reference that would have allowed her sub-conscious to represent the Old Ones in their true cyclopian form (which I would suspect resembles Cthulhu; a sea monster like appearance. Legend has it that Great Cthulu the wizard is a veritable giant perhaps sixty feet tall or taller. A reptilian yet bipedal body, great membramous wings [like a bat]and a head shapped like a giant octopus with many long tinticles! He is essentialy a spiritual being whos body is created out of the mists and moon-beams, and molecules or the surrounding elements of this world and held together by shear force of will. But millions of years ago the stars grew out of alignment and the great race of Cthulh grew week and unable to maintain their colosal forms or weild their magic. So they retreated beyond our dimension through the gate that is their god Yog-Sothoth. Yog-Sothoth is the interdiminsional gateway. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gateway. Yog-Sothoth is the Gardian of the gateway and, for that reason is worshiped by Great Cthulhu and his race. Their are many deminsions, many alternative worlds. The NECRONOMICON described these worlds as akin to great spheares. These spheares occationaly touch tangentialy and thus, when the stars are right and correspond to the proper seasons, the barier breaks down between these worlds (where the two spherical worlds meet) and, at their weakest point, the Old Ones can break through (provided they are permited by Yog-Sothoth who, in turn, must be aided by human cult members in our own world as they,in turn, perform ritual magic and howel incantations as outlined in such arcane and occult books as THE NECRONOMICON). Yog-Sothoth is aware of all interdiminsional travel between all the spearical alternate worlds. He can permit or denie such interdiminsional travel and, for this reason, is worshiped by both the Old Ones and thier human benifactors. When the stars grew out of alienment eons ago, and as the race of Cthulhu retreated beyond our dimisnions of space and time (to preserve their streangth), Cthulhu remined behind in the great cyclopean city of R'lyeh and slept...and waited. Cthulhu survived the stars lack of alignment through his sleep. Rylyeh was a fortress and protected him. This great city of the Old Ones eventualy sank beneath the ocean yet remained intact and still protects him. He contintued to manipulate humanity telipathicaly so as to prepare and one day use said humanity to open the gateway and allow the race of Cthulhu to re-emerge back into our world (one day many eons later); when the stars were in the proper alignment once again. But the great city of R'lyeh and the island upon which it rests sank beneath the ocean waves eons ago. Yet Great Cthulhu still remains, dreaming, and influencing humanity via his telipathic abilities; and prepareing the way for the Old Ones eventual return!). Thus, The OLD ONES communicated with Nancy (who must have been psychicaly atuned to the Old Ones influence and thus explains Wilbur's interest in her) via dream and Wilburs company and made their presence known to her in dream by selecting symbols or archytpes from Nancy's sub-conscious that best represented who and what the OLD ONES were. That is, the OLD ONES were impossibly ancient beings with occult wisdom and great power from ages past. In order to convey this reality to Nancy via dream emegery the OLD ONES selected the only emage in Nancy's sub-conscious that came closest to symbolizing these atributes of the old ones. Hince Nancy's subconscious represented the OLD ONES to her as ancient chrones who were witches. Their age symbolizes the advanced and remote age of the OLD ONES. The fact they were witches symbolizes the OLD ONES 'occult knowlege' which they wish to communicate to Nancy. Their nakedness symbolizes they are of the old nature religion and thus one with the primal universal and elemental forces of nature. Think of Nancy's dream as similar to a TAROT deck spread out and needing to be interpreted within the context of what the emagery symbolizes or represents to the subject rather then interpreting the emagery literaly. Dreams are symbolic; not litteral, and thus reqire interpretation. The Old ones are not completely 'material' as we understand the word. Rather they are spiritual beings who, at the hight of their powers, can re-arrange molicules and the elements of nature in order to form bodies for themselves. However, due to the fact that the Old Ones have withdrawn into other deminsions beyond our own (due to the current astrological alignments in the heavens)they control and manipulate their cult members only through telipathy and dreams. The 'insane' are highly subseptible to their 'dream'influence as are those with psychic ability. Such dreams or revelations were set down in fragments which were, in turn, collected and codified into THE al-AZIF (Arabic) or NECRONOMICON (Greek) by the Mad Arab Abdule Alhazred around 730AD. People hightly subseptible to the Old Ones psychic influence in turn seek out this forbiden book and have, over the centuries, even organized secret cults and religions around this tome. The Waitly family represent one such cult (persecuted for their beliefs by the surrounding Christian culture).
Cult members typicaly feel alianated from this Christain culture (which doesn't understand or accept them and thus fears them and discriminates against them) and drawn toward the race of Cthulhu and their master, Yog-Sothoth. Cult members long for the day when 'the stars are right' and the race of Cthulhu can cross over across the barier once again. Yog-Sothoth controls 'the gateway' between worlds (which might explain why human members of the cult on earth have seen fit to use the Necronomicon to summon Yog-Sothoth and have him impregnate human female cult members. Thus, Yog-Sothoth's blood will run through the vains of the humans and thus sanctify them in some way that permits them to, one day, when the stars are right, conspire with Yog-Sothoth himself and help him to open the gateways between diminsions sufficiently enough to allow the race of Cthulhu to emerge into our world permanetnly). My theory is that while Yog-Sothoth can emerge into our world-with help of humans useing the Necronomicon and observing the proper astrological alienments-he can only do so just long enought to impregnate a human female [before haveing to withdrawl from our deminsion back to wence he came]. That is, the gateway cannot be opened long enough to allow the race of Cthulhu to emerge into our world permenately. At least not yet. That won't happen until, as the Necronomicon indicates: "when the stars are right". As for the great Sea Monster/Wizard Cthulhu, he lays dreaming in the sunken city of R'lyeh somewhere beneath the Pacific Ocean (helping to direct the human cult members on earth via his telipathic abilities. Mad poets like Alhazred were inspired by telipathicaly induced dreams sent by Cthulhu to compile the NECRONOMICON. Dreams telipathicaly planted in their minds my GREAT CTHULHU who lays dreaming in his sunken temple deep beneath the Ocean waves.). In many ways the Cthulhu cult resembles Gnostosism (but not Christian Gnostism. Gnostism included Pagan as well as Christian sects). The Gnostics would have still been active about the time Alhazred suposedly wrote his NECRONOMICON. Could Alhazred have based the Necronomicon on a Pagan Gnostic sect of the eigth century (well, no, as Alhazred never existed and neither did his Necronomicon. However, for the moment, lets pretetend that he did...)? Interesting parallels. The Gnostics believed that gods and avatars 'emenated' from a single all powerful 'God-Head' such that all the gods were seperate while, at the same time, linked to one another (similar to the Christian concept of 'the trinity': three persons as one being.). The Necronomicon makes reference to its most powerful deity: AZATHOTH: the blind idiot GOD of CHAOS. AZATHOTH pipes his 'mad' idiot music on this flute and the insane music he creates crystalizes into the reality that is our material universe! GNOSTICS believed that spirit was good and matter evil. Our material universe it evil and the creation of a God that is at once all powerful and an insane idiot! This concept of the material universe as an accident or the result of chaos or 'insanity/idiocy' reflects H.P. Lovecrafts personal philosophy of 'material atheism'. Azathoth exists beyond the stars in the realm of chaos. Closer to home are the lesser deities. Yog-SoThoth who controlls all interdiminsional gateways is the most powerful of these lesser deities of the Cthulhu mythos. Many think Yog-Sothoth is reminesent of the Egytian god Thoth (who's name is similar); a god of Sorcery and magic. Cthulhu and his race worship Yog-Sothoth and are dependent upon him for their survival (due to their need for interdiminsional travel-as heretofor explained). When the stars grow out of alignment every so many thousands of years the race of Cthulhu must travel to other diminions or alternative realities in order to preserve their power until such time as the stars right themselves and they can return to earth. Hince the race of Cthulhu worships Yog-Sothoth who controls the gate-ways between worlds. Still other deities of the Cthulhu mythos are named in the NECRONOMICON. Great Cthulhu himself a giant sea-monster/wizard (he lays dreaming in the sunken city of Rylyeh-beneath the ocean depths)who manipulates and controls humanity via his psychic powers (even while he's dreaming in a live/dead state) and prepares a way for the Old Ones' return to our world once the stars have righted themselves. There is Nyarlathotep who is described as the 'messenger' of 'the Old Ones' and acts as something of a 'familier' to wizards and witches who serve the Old Ones. According to Tyson's version of THE NECRONOMICON it is Nyarlathotep who teaches the Mad Arab Abdule Alhazred about THE OLD ONES and the Cthulhu cult (while Nyarlathotep befreinds and serves and is, in fact, one of THE OLD ONES he is not one of THE RACE OF CTHULHU. He may be human or an accomplished wizard who has the blood of Yog-Sothoth running through his veins. I don't know. Whatever he is, he's powerful and more then human but may have a human form [more or less]. I think of him as something of a demigod like Wilber Whately in TDH). He is more or less am inhuman but perhaps humanoid and imortal being. Shub-Niggurath is yet another one of the Old Ones who is, however, not of the race of C'thulh but may be related to Yog-Sothoth and humanity (perhaps another hybrid of the two). Shub-Niggurath, also discribed as THE BLACK GOAT OF THE FOREST or THE GOAT OF A THOUSAND YOUNG. seems to be possibly based on a Male or Female Fertility god, or goddess, respecfuly. Shub-Niggurath is reminesent of the pagan Satyr or the pagan god Pan (who provided inspiration to medivel artists and writers who in turn sought to depict the Christian devil). Azathoth seems oblivous to the cosmology he has created out of chaos but Yog-Sothoth, Cthulhu and his race, as well as beings such as Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath, all seem to have more or less the same agenda and can be discribled collectively as THE OLD ONES. The ELDER THINGS, on the other hand, are not THE OLD ONES and do not serve Yog-Sothoth and are large star-fished shapped beings who practice 'astro-projection' such that they can project their astro-selves out of their bodies and into the bodies of various races who rule the earth at various times in earths history, post-history, or pre-history. Thus the ELDER THINGS have traveled from world to world, useing astro-projection. When the OLD ONES came from the stars and conquered the ELDERTHINGS, the latter escaped either into earths future (to inhabit humans or the bodies of still more remote races who are distant successors to humanity on earth) or to an entirely different world beyond our sun. It is said that THE ELDER THINGS may even have influenced human evolution such that they themselves may actualy be our creators (something Abdule Alhazred seemed to regard as 'blashemy' despite the fact he had betrayed his Islamic faith to serve THE OLD ONES). More disturbing still is that THE ELDER THINGS may have created us as a 'joke' or some wierd experiment for, acording to Alhazred's NECRONOMICON, certain wizards (who have practiced astro-projection, and traveled back in time to a romote primordial past earth, and have inhabited the bodies of THE ELDERTHINGS for short periods) have been disturbed to discover that said ELDER THINGS are not only aware of their presence but joke amsongst themselves about our race and the cruel trick they played on us by creating us such that our organs of 'illimination' are synomimous to our organ's of 'reproduction'! Something which, aparently, is not the case with the bodies of THE ELDER THINGS. If this is true, it would appear that when THE OLD ONES defeated THE ELDER THINGS the latter created and left humanity behind to serve the former (Perhaps as a cruel and sadistic joke upon both the Old Ones and humanity!). Thus, even today, human members of the Cthulhu cultus look foward to bringing back The OLD ONES to rule the world and to turn our contemperary human systems of morality upside down. Because the cult members have interbreed with Yog-Sothoth (whom the race of Cthulhu revears) and have his blood running thought their viens, they know they need not fear the Old Ones return but will instead find an acceptance in the NEW ORDER that they haven't been able to find in the world of men (or among the Christain, Islamic, and Jewish peoples).
There's a new book out by occultist Donald Tyson which perports to be THE NECRONOMICON and is so titled. Onlike earlier NECRONOMICONS (such as the Simon Necronomicon) Tyson's book incorporates the NECRONOMICON fragments quoted in the origional Cthulhu mythos stories penned by H.P.Lovecraft. I'm in the process of reading it now. I'm singulary impressed. It's like something Wilbur Whately would have stollen from Miskatonic University!LOL! However, I hasten to add, despite what many people beleive, the NECRONOMICON was merely a plot prop or devise invented by Lovecraft. It never existed in our world. However, Lovecraft didn't consciously invent the name "NECRONOMICON". Rather, it came to him in a dream. Some occultists speculate that the book really does exist but in the AKASHAN RECORD on the Astral Plane. In other words the book and its knowlege of Cthulhu and the other Old Ones and Elder Things is written in our DNA memory or memories of THE RACE MIND. Who knows. Fun to think about however! I don't think its any crazyer then a lot of other so called religions (sad to say!).
"AM I MAKING YOU RANDY?"-Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.
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n00bzrus
18 years ago
TX-9 you seem to have the gist of the mythos down but I would have to disagree with a few of your statements.
You said:
1} "Yog-Sothoth is known in the Mythos as THE KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY"
- Lovecraft describes Yog-Sothoth as the gate and the key, not the keeper of the gateway. Which means Yog-Sothoth, the gate and the key are all the same entity, what you describe is 2 seperate entities.
2} "The Old Ones defeated the Elder Things"
- The Elder Things were defeated by the the cooling of the planet from the last ice age where they retreated to thier undersea cities deep in the ocean. A lot later they were defeted by thier slaves the shoggoths. Re-read At the Mountains of Madness.
3) "the Old Ones (magical beings after all and thus dependent upon the alighnment of the stars in order to maintain their forms and wield their power)"
- The Great Old Ones are alien beings from a dimension beyond time and space not magical beings, and I don't recall Lovecraft ever stating that thier forms were maintained by the alignment of the stars, it was that the alignment had to be right for thier return.
4) "Legend has it that Great Cthulu the wizard is a veritable giant perhaps sixty feet tall or taller."
- Taller, Cthulhu is described as being miles high, although exact size is never given. Cthulhu is also described as "a mountain moved, or stumbled" 60 feet would be more like a small hill not a mountain. Cthulhu is a priest of Yog-Sothoth not a wizard. Re-read The Call of Cthulhu.
5) "He is essentialy a spiritual being whos body is created out of the mists and moon-beams"
- Cthulhu is not a spiritual being (see #3 above). Many of the Great Old Ones are made of an unearthly material with properties unlike normal matter. Not mists and moonbeams (where does that even come from, that just sounds so unlike Lovecraft)
6) "But millions of years ago the stars grew out of alignment and the great race of Cthulh grew week and unable to maintain their colosal forms or weild their magic. So they retreated beyond our dimension through the gate that is their god Yog-Sothoth. "
- I'm not sure what you mean by the great race of Cthulhu, (the only race described as great is the Great Race of Yith, because of thier ability to conquer time read The Shadow Out of Time) if you mean the Star-spawn of Cthulhu, they came with Cthulhu to Earth and MAY or MAY NOT be it's progeny, but it never stated. Also the reason for thier current state is unknown. Lovecraft never stated that they grew weak and were unable to maintain thier forms all that is known is that they are imprisoned and are awaiting thier return. Why they were imprisoned is unknown.
7) "In many ways the Cthulhu cult resembles Gnostosism (but not Christian Gnostism. Gnostism included Pagan as well as Christian sects)."
- Gnos·tic: (adj.)
1. Gnostic: Of, relating to, or possessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge.
2. Of or relating to Gnosticism.
Any religion or sect could be gnostic not just christian or pagan but this point is moot as it really doesn't apply to the mythos.
8} "The ELDER THINGS, on the other hand, are not THE OLD ONES and do not serve Yog-Sothoth and are large star-fished shapped beings who practice 'astro-projection' such that they can project their astro-selves out of their bodies and into the bodies of various races who rule the earth at various times in earths history, post-history, or pre-history. Thus the ELDER THINGS have traveled from world to world, useing astro-projection. When the OLD ONES came from the stars and conquered the ELDERTHINGS, the latter escaped either into earths future (to inhabit humans or the bodies of still more remote races who are distant successors to humanity on earth) or to an entirely different world beyond our sun."
- You are correct that the Elder Things are not the Great Old Ones but you are confusing the Elder Things with the Great Race of Yith. The Great Old Ones did not conquer the Elder Things (see #2 above) The Great Race of Yith escaped to earths future to inhabit the insect bodies of the dominate race after man.
The Elder Things were the first alien species to come to the Earth, colonizing the planet about one billion years ago. They stood roughly eight feet tall and had the appearance of a huge, oval-shaped barrel with starfish-like appendage at both ends. The top appendage was a head adorned with five eyes, five eating tubes, and a set of cilia for "seeing" without light. The bottom appendage was five-limbed and was used for walking and other forms of locomotion. The beings also had five leathery, retractable wings and five sets of tentacles that sprouted from their torsos. Both their tentacles and the slits housing their folded wings were spaced at regular intervals about their bodies. The Elder Things were vegetable-like in shape, having radial symmetry instead of the bilateral symmetry of bipeds. They also differed in that they had a five-lobed brain. In terms of nutrition and reproduction, the Elder Things exhibited vegetal as well as animal characteristics. Though they could make use of both organic and inorganic substances, the Elder Things were preferably carnivorous. They were also amphibious. The bodies of the Elder Things were incredibly tough, capable of withstanding the pressures of the deepest ocean. Few died except by accident or violence. The beings were also capable of hibernating for vast epochs of time. Nonetheless, unlike other beings of the mythos, the Elder Things were made of normal, terrestrial matter. Re-read At the Mountains of Madness.
The Great Race of Yith are beings of enormous intellectual and psychic powers that once dwelt on the dying world of Yith. They escaped the destruction of their home planet by transferring their minds to the bodies of a species native to the Earth in the far distant past. In the bodies they inhabited on the Earth, they were tall and cone-shaped, rising to a point with four strange appendages – two terminating in claws, a third in a "trumpet", and the fourth, a yellow globe which functioned as a sensory organ. Re-read The Shadow out of Time.
"Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs, I see through you." - Bill Hicks
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TX-9
18 years ago
Thanks, I am in the process of re-reading Lovecraft. I read the entire mythos but that was almost twenty years ago (and I only read it once. So I don't think I had all the mythos completely straight even way back then!). Still, dispite my ignorance, I remember the advernture of reading Lovecraft fondly and was anxious to discuss the mythos and my impressions of it. I apreciate you correcting my plethera of errors (this will be helpful in my current attempts to re-read Lovecraft and, perhaps, aquire a much better grasp of the Cthulhu mythos in the process.). What you have written here is of invaluable help to me. I'm tempted to delete my last post (due to all the errors) but have decided to keep it up merely because it provides the proper context for your superior and more acurate observations. Your a good teacher (and Defender of the Faith from my coruptive influence!).
As for the Cthulhu mythos being based on Gnostisim, I think I meant, specificaly Neo-platonism. I've read a book of articles and esseys on Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. One such essay claimed Gnostism was heavily influenced by NeoPlatonism which, in turn, tought the notion of various deities and avatars 'emenating' from a single all powerful God-head. Gnostisism also taught that Matter was evil and spirit was good. Lovecrafts notion of the material universe being created by the blind idiot god named Azathoth; the 'blind god of chaos' seems, in the writers opinion, to have possibly been influenced by this Gnostic doctrine (that matter is evil and that, therefore, the creator of the material universe is evil). Azathoth is believed to be a 'lower avatar' or emination or 'aion' of the 'Great God-Head'which transends all lesser gods, dimigods, and deities (and unites them such that all are one in much the same way the Christian doctrine of the trinity unites THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST as three in one). I don't know if you looked 'gnostism' up in a dictionary or used 'word analisis' or 'etymology' to break the word down into its component root words and sufixes (thus leading you to the opinion that Gnostism describes 'any religion') but you really need to look up Gnostism and Neo-Platonism on Wikipedia or in a good encyclopedia or something. It was a specific, albeit unorganized and uncentralized, movement in the middle east composed of many sects, cults, and schools durring the early centuries of Christianity. The early Christian church refered to it as 'the Hydra Heresy' because it had 'many heads' (pagan, christain, Neo-Platonic, etc.). However, in all its many permutaions, it did have as its basic tenent the notion that only spirit is truth and matter is evil or is a prison for spirit (which lead Carl Jung, the Swiss Analytical psychologist to speculate that the contemperary Christian Science movement-which tought that 'matter' is a 'lie' is a form of 'revived Gnostism'). But, at any rate, that was just my opinion based on esseys not written by Lovecraft (speculation about Lovecrafts mythos by others other than Lovecraft himself). Your point that this is not relavent is well taken in the sense that such beleifs are (to my knowlege) not representative of Lovecrafts views about his own mythos; only of writers who have writen and speculated on the universe of THE MYTHOS. I hope this explains where I was coming from. At first I wasn't going to explain this for fear of muddying the proverbial waters but, hell, you were so kind to read my long post and comment in such detail on it that its the least I can do to try to explain what I was writting about!LOL!
About the Old Ones being 'spiritual beings' and forming their terestrial bodies (via telikenetic ability or magic) out of 'moon-beams' and 'mist', well, you got me. Upon further reflection I think this concept owes more to Bram Stoker's discription of how Dracula can apppear and re-appear then to Lovecraft's "Cthulhu" Mythos. I was confusing my authors there! I thank you again. Now I understand that the Old Ones are composed of celestial or otherworldly substance unlike terrestrial matter but are not spiritual beings. It's interesting that my understanding of the mythos is more magical and superstitious while yours seems more materialistic and scientific. However, given that Lovecraft was himself a Materialistic Atheist, I'm sure he would have had nothing but distane for my more supernatural take on his creation.LOL!
I will defend one statement I made. When I said Yog-Sothoth was 'THE KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY' this doesn't contradict H.P. Lovecraft's statement to the effect that Yog-Sothoth is both "THE KEY TO THE GATEWAY" and "THE GATEWAY". Perhaps Lovecraft didn't come right out and use the expression "KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY" but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. When I wrote this I meant that Yog-Sothoth was the KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY in the same way that a man can be THE KEEPER OF HIS OWN COUNSCEIENCE. By your reasoning a man would have to be a 'seperate entity' from his own conscience (and vice versa) in order to be keeper of it. I respectfully disagree. However, if you say the expression can't be atributed to Lovecraft I'll take your word for it. I merely maintain that just because Lovecraft didn't mention something it doesn't mean it isn't a plausable possibility.
Your right, I was confusing the Great Race of Yith with The Elder Things! It will delight you to no end to know I am totaly embaraced by this rather silly error on my part!LOL! Good call! Thankyou for reading my long and complicated post closely enough to guess the problem and correct my error (lest I embarass myself further!LOL!). Thanks yet again!
As for the film version of "THE DUNWITCH HORROR" it may have been filed with errors and plot wholes big enough for an army of interdiminsional beings to pass through but it has great apocolyptic 'atmosphere' and 'ambiance' and can become a springboard for discussing (or in my case, learning more about)the Cthulhu mythos (as our wonderful exchange demonstrates). But thats just my opinion.
"AM I MAKING YOU RANDY?"-Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.
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n00bzrus
18 years ago
WOW Thank you for the reply! I myself have recently gotten a bug to reread Lovecrafts stuff. It has to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 years since I have really read any of the mythos as well, perhaps we are being driven to by forces we don't understand! LOL! I had just recently read all of the stories I refered to in my post so I knew a lot of it wasn't accurate. There is no need to delete your post it may help people new to Lovecraft and his mythos to understand it better. You could edit it to reflect my changes and I would have no problem deleting my previous post, but that is up to you. I also like discussing the mythos and getting other peoples impressions of it. I am glad to be of help and to help spread the word of Lovecraft. Ia Cthulhu Ia!!
I am glad you took the time to muddy the proverbial waters, it does help me to understand where you are coming from. In fact it was such a moot point I considered not even mentioning it, seeing as it really wasn't mythos related. You were also correct that I did just look-up the word gnostic in the dictionary (I would have thought that they way I presented it would have given that very idea LOL). I think I mentioned it to understand what you meant by it. I have taken your advice and looked up Gnosticism and Neoplatonism on Wikipedia. I would have to agree and disagree with you at the same time.
There are two stages to the mythos, the first by Lovecraft and his circle of correspondents. This is the Lovecraft mythos. The second stage began with August Derleth, who made massive changes to the mythos and expanded it after Lovecrafts death. This is the Cthulhu mythos. I make this distinction because what you describe is more like the second stage of the mythos which is completly different from Lovecrafts mythos as you pointed out.
Lovecraft recognized that each writer had his own story-cycle and that an element from one cycle would not necessarily become part of another simply because a writer used it in one of his stories. For example, although Smith might mention "Kthulhut" (Cthulhu) in one of his Hyperborean tales, this does not mean that Cthulhu is part of the Hyperborean cycle. Lovecraft never meant to create a canonical mythos but rather intended his imaginary pseudomythology (or "Arkham cycle" or "Yog-Sothothery" as Lovecraft refered to his work) to serve merely as a background element. Furthermore, Lovecraft may not have been serious when he spoke of developing a myth-cycle and probably would have had no need to give it a name anyway. Since he used his mythos simply as background material, he probably had this in mind when he allowed other writers to use it in their own stories. Moreover, it could be said that Lovecraft's mythos was a kind of elaborate inside joke, propagating among the writers of his circle and wearing thin upon his death.
Derleth seems to have not understood this and believed that Lovecraft wanted other authors to actively write about the myth-cycle rather than to simply allude to it in their stories. Derleth had his own take on the mythos and tried to make it conform to his own Catholic values and dualism. Instead of a universe of meaninglessness and chaos, Derleth's mythos is a struggle of good versus evil.
Lovecrafts vision could be more described as Cosmicism or Cosmic Indifferentism. The philosophy of cosmicism states that there is no God of any kind in the universe, and that humans are particularly insignificant in the larger scheme of intergalactic existence, and perhaps are just a small species projecting their own mental idolatries onto the vast cosmos, ever susceptible to be wiped from existence at any moment. This also suggested that the majority of undiscerning humanity are insectoid creatures in a much greater struggle between greater forces than itself, which, due to humanity's small, visionless and unimportant nature, it does not recognize. This is really what really makes his work so terrifying and frightening to me. Reducing it to a struggle of good versus evil really cheapens the whole effect in my opion.
When Lovecraft conceived his "Yog-Sothothery", he never followed a definitive plan. He simply wrote his stories, changing the mythos elements as needed to serve the plot. By recreating the mythos with each story he wrote, Lovecraft added to the deepening mystery of the myth cycle and illustrated the inability of the human mind to fully comprehend it.
However by carefully scrutinizing Lovecraft's writings a workable framework emerges for a pantheon of beings. Lovecraft's central deities are Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth, both representing opposing cosmic principles. Azathoth, the "blind", "idiotic" ruler of the pantheon, occupies the literal center of the universe piping on it's demonic flute whose music becomes reality, whereas Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth's co-ruler, embodies the infinite, existing in all places and in all times. More like a dualistic body/mind approach. However I doubt Lovecraft had this in mind.
Next in the hierarchy is Shub-Niggurath (whom Lovecraft mentions but never describes in his stories), representing some sort of pagan fertility god.
Attending Azathoth at his court are the Other Gods, mysterious beings that dance mindlessly around Azathoth's throne in cadence to the piping.
Nyarlathotep, the avatar and messenger of Azathoth and the Other Gods. Nyarlathotep is the only being that can interact intelligibly with human beings, though he often manifests himself in human form to disguise his true appearance.
The topmost tier of deities is served by terrestrial, non-human beings. Cthulhu is regarded as the priest of the gods, while Dagon and Hydra appear to be his subordinates.
The lowest tier consists of a race of ocean-dwelling humanoids, the Deep Ones, serving Cthulhu, Dagon and Hydra, and a pair of extraterrestrial races, the Elder Things (along with their slaves, the shoggoths) and the Mi-go (The Fungi from Yuggoth).
There is something of 'the Hydra Heresy' in Lovecrafts work, from the end of "The Horror at Red Hook" :
"Age-old horror is a hydra with a thousand heads, and the cults of darkness are rooted in blasphemies deeper than the well of Democritus, The soul of the beast is omnipresent and triumphant, and Red Hook's legions of blear-eyed, pockmarked youths still chant and curse and howl as they file from abyss to abyss, none knows whence or whither, pushed on by blind laws of biology which they may never understand."
But looking at it as Lovecraft did a Gnostic / Neoplaton / Monistic model doesn't seem appropriate to me.
You said:
"It's interesting that my understanding of the mythos is more magical and superstitious while yours seems more materialistic and scientific. However, given that Lovecraft was himself a Materialistic Atheist, I'm sure he would have had nothing but distane for my more supernatural take on his creation.LOL!"
If by materialist you mean physicalist I might be inclined to agree but I am definitely more logical/scientific minded than magical/superstious minded. I think that is what attracts me so much to his work, and you are probably correct he probably would have nothing but disdain for your take on it. LOL!
You said:
"I will defend one statement I made. When I said Yog-Sothoth was 'THE KEEPER OF THE GATEWAY' this doesn't contradict H.P. Lovecraft's statement to the effect that Yog-Sothoth is both "THE KEY TO THE GATEWAY" and "THE GATEWAY"."
I never said it contradicted it. You also said in the post I originally responded to:
"So they retreated beyond our dimension through the gate that is their god Yog-Sothoth. Yog-Sothoth is the interdiminsional gateway. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gateway. Yog-Sothoth is the Gardian of the gateway and, for that reason is worshiped by Great Cthulhu and his race."
I should have quoted that as well and shown that you did have it correct. I also should have phrased my response better. Instead of saying "what you describe is 2 seperate entities" I should have said that the way you phrased it could be taken as 2 seperate entities by people unfamiliar with the mythos. Since it seemed to me that the point of your post was to enlighten people on the mythos I just think you should have introduced Yog-Sothoth this way to begin with. :) Although I'm not sure they retreated as I said they were imprisioned, whether by choice or not is unknown, and I don't recall Lovecraft ever stating why they worship Yog-Sothoth but I may be incorrect on that point. If you recall reading this please tell me where I can find it so I can increase my own knowledge of the mythos. :)
You said:
"Your right, I was confusing the Great Race of Yith with The Elder Things! It will delight you to no end to know I am totaly embaraced by this rather silly error on my part!LOL! Good call! Thankyou for reading my long and complicated post closely enough to guess the problem and correct my error (lest I embarass myself further!LOL!). Thanks yet again!"
LOL It will delight you to know that I myself had them confused when I first started my post! Like I said I had just recently re-read many of the stories and some of the details get jumbled sometimes. It wasn't untill I went to wikipedia (faster than rereading the stories ;) and looked up both Elder Things and The Great Race of Yith and sorted it out for myself. Also I was mistaken with the defeat of the Elder Things they were finally done in by thier slaves, the Shoggoth, however that was MUCH later. I want to thank you as well for helping strengthen and deepen my own knowledge and understanding of the mythos. I found reading your entire post entertaining and helping you helped myself.
May I recomend that you visit wikipedia and check out: Cthulhu Mythos, Lovecraft Mythos and Cosmicism Also much information on the various entities may be found there as well. If you do visit you will see that large parts of this post are directly plagerized from there. LOL!!
Lastly you said:
"As for the film version of "THE DUNWITCH HORROR" it may have been filed with errors and plot wholes big enough for an army of interdiminsional beings to pass through but it has great apocolyptic 'atmosphere' and 'ambiance' and can become a springboard for discussing (or in my case, learning more about)the Cthulhu mythos (as our wonderful exchange demonstrates). But thats just my opinion. "
I havn't seen the movie in probably thirty years, so my memory of it is a bit foggy at the moment. LOL! I am doing my best to get a copy now. My Lovecraft bug also includes getting as many movie/tv adaptions of his work as I can, no matter how bad/cheesy/unfaithful to his work etc. Don't ask me why I like to torture myself this way I don't think I could explain it to myself let alone anyone else! LOL! Discussing/learning two sides of the same coin this exchange has helped me as well as you I'm not sure my motives were entirely alturistic. LOL!
Have you seen The Call of Cthulhu? The movie done by the HPLHS, its done in the style of a silent film from 1926 and is a pretty faithful adaption. Also have heard about a movie that is supposed to be released soon called Cthulhu with Tori Spelling in it?
"Your denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you" - Bill Hicks
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TX-9
18 years ago
Wow! Thanks for all the info. Sounds like Wikipedia is a great source for info on 'Yog-Sothothery'!LOL!
I've heard about the new Torri Spelling production but Haven't seen the Cthulhu silent film. The latter sounds great. As for the former; we'll have to wait and see.
With respect to my 'supernatural and superstitous take' on the Cthulhu mythos and Lovecraft having distane for such 'hoccus-pocus' (and I know I said it first!) this is probably only true to a certain point. As you mentioned, Lovecraft's view of the mythos and his use of it changed. He wrote THE DUNWICH HORROR before he penned "SHADOW OUT OF TIME" and "THE MOUNTANS OF MADNESS." The latter two reflect Lovecrafts emphasis on science and materialism and are great 'science fiction' yarns. Even DREAMS IN THE WITCH HOUSE hints that modern pysics and geometry will one day merge in such a way as will explain 'witchcaft' and 'magic' scientificaly. But DUNWICH is more of an almost traditional supernatural/horror tale (complete with wizards resiteing spells and incantations out of old moldering grimories in order to summon forth elder deamons from out of the infernal regions!). True, DUNWITCH delt with science fiction elements such as alien species and mutant-hybred species, as well as such Sci-fi staple ideas as 'parallel worlds' or interdimsional travel beyond our own universe, etc. However, there was much more emphasis on horror and the supernatural in Dunwich. In contrast, stories like A SHADOW OUT OF TIME delt with more Sci-fi themes. The Great Race of Yith were Card carying Socialists (reflecting Lovecrafts then emerging political views and his desire to foray into the relm of 'social-science-fiction' or 'utopian or distopian' themes.)while Lovecraft succussfuly combined the horror and suppernatural themes of 'deomonic possession', and 'astro-projection' with the science fiction staple of 'time-travel' to explain how the Great Race of Yith explored the universe and, ultamately, cheated extinction.
So Dunwich and the latter two tales ("M0UNTANS...", and "SHADOW...") represent different stages in the development of the mythos. So, perhaps, when I said that Lovecraft would have had nothing but distain for my 'supernatural' aproach to the mythos, I might not have been entirely correct. I think he would have been pleased that our respective posts demonstrate that his mythos is versitle enough to work in both genres (of Sci-fi and supernatural horror).
With respect to the Mythos in other works (TV, Litterature,and Film) I've noticed in, for example, the Robert E. Howard books there are references to the Cthulhu cult. However, his tales (niether horror nor Sci-fi but, more akin to sword and sourcery) reflect the beleifs held by the 'barbaric' remnants of the ancient Atlantian civilization. My impression is that the reference to Cthulhu and other mythos deitys in Howards books represent centuries of curuption of thier origional meaning as once grasped by a once great and powerfuly advanced Atlantian civiliztion. One gets the impresion that the Atlantian's knew of the Old Ones and had contact with them; knew the meaning of alien visiters, 'interdiminsionnal travel' and so on. However, twelve hundred years after Atlantis was distroyed this knowledge has been corrupted into superstitous wise-tales and decadent religious cultic practices as it was passed down via an oral tradition that, in turn, spans centuries. So the barbaric people worship these beings but know only bits and pieces of what thier super-civilized Atlantian ancestors knew. The Atlantian's understood the science of interdiminsional travel and that these creatures were 'aliens' while latter Barnbarians living in the age of Kull, or even latter, in the age of Conan, mis-percieved the Mythos in terms of a primitive religion of spells, incantations, magical beings, and so on. But this is just my impression as I've not read much Howard.
Robert Bloc (who wrote Psycho and created the character of Norman Bates and was one of Lovecrafts teenage correspondents) penned a script for the origional STAR TREK TV series entitled: WHAT ARE LITTLE GIRLS MADE OF. The story was about a race known as 'THE OLD ONES' who retreated below ground durring their planets Ice Age (sound familer?!). They created servants for themselves; androids. They began to grow fearful of the Androids and to turn them off. The Androids rebelled and the civilization was distroyed. Only thousands of years latter was a dieing scientist named Roger Corby (a man from earth's 23rd Century) befrended by the last remaining android to be built by the Old Ones and to survive his planets caticlysmic war and ice age (an android being named Ruk; 'a servo unit' left behind tending the machinery of the underground civiliztion for eons.). Well, if you ever watch this first season Trek episode note the passage ways and doors in this underground base of the Old Ones. You'll notice that they are shaped in a triangular fashion (to accomidate beings who would resemble shoggoth's perhaps?). Well, Ruk, (who presumably looked like THE OLD ONES or the race that made him, didn't look quite human but he was humanoid. He certainly didn't look like THE ELDER THINGS. Nor did he look like a Shoggoth. However, one suspects that, had Star trek's budget allowed for it, he might have!). At any rate Bloc's account of THE OLD ONES growing fearful of their ANDROIDS and the latter going on the attack and displacing their masters is taken right out of Lovecrafts account of the ELDER THINGS being displaced by their slaves; THE SHOGGOTHS, in THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS! I've read this somewhere a long time ago. It was probably an old interview with Robert Bloch.
Hammer films in England attempted a retelling of DREAMS IN THE WITCH HOUSE (in the late 1960's). It starred Christoper Lee, Barbara Steele, and Boras Karloff (I think it was his last film). The result was 'CURSE OF THE CRIMSON CULT'. I don't have too much to say about this film. The best part of it was seeing BARBARA STEELE showing off lots of cleavage, painted Green and whereing a golden rams head headress with pea-cock feathers!LOL! Barbara looked great (kinda like Lily Munster if she were on Acid and into Sado/Masochism!LOL!). But for the most part the film was even worse then THE DUNWICH HORROR. At least the latter mentioned the mythos. Crimson Cult bares no resemblance to Lovecraft at all (yet tried to cash in on his name while featuring a great cast).
I do agree that what makes Lovecrafts writings about Cthulhu and his friends true Horror (even the stories that are also to be considered strong science fiction) is what you noted to be this theme of mankind merely projecting its own architypes or patterns of thought and emotion onto a dispasionate universe that in no way corresponds to the human spirit or even values human existance. Man calls these 'projections' deities or gods and consoles himself with the erant belief that these gods control natural law and can be apeased through prayer or sacrifice. But, according to the mythos, such is not the case. Man kind is an anomoly in the universe; and a rather insignificant one at that. Compaired to THE OLD ONES who have existed for eons of time, humanity is but a mere drop in the proverbial bucket and as long lived as a soap bubble (you'll pardon me for mixing my metaphores). Your right, such is indeed the true nature of Horror. Its an existencial horror; the realizaton that our existance (our sins and our saintlyness) are all meaningless. As Shakespere's Macbeth would say "TIS A TALE TOLD BY AN IDIOT, FULL OF SOUND AND FURY, SIGNIFYING NOTHING!"
"AM I MAKING YOU RANDY?"-Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.
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n00bzrus
18 years ago
I would agree with the wait and see attitude about the former, but check out the Call of Cthulhu "silent" movie. Some will tell you its boring, and if your expecting an action packed, romance filled, good time Hollywood romp you are sure to be disapointed. If however your interested in a faithful adaptaion of Lovecraft's work made in a fasion of a silent film of his day then it is definitely worth a look. For a low budget film it is well done and there is a lot of attention to detail in the set designs. It would be interesting to see what these people could do if they had more money.
One thing that amuses me is that something I thought so trival as to almost not include in my first post was the catlyst that really opened up this whole exchange in the first place. Again I must be being moved by forces beyond my comprehension! Ia Yog-Sothoth Ia!! I hope I was not giving you the impression that I had any personal disdain for your take on Yog-Sothothery. Your take is as valid as mine this is not an argument, there is no right or wrong. I am very much enjoing this exchange with you it is rare to actully have a pleasent conversation with someone here! The way I see it is this Sci-Fi/Magik/Psionics/Deamons/Dreams it doesn't matter, it's just the vehicle the story teller uses to rationalize things that are usually not considered possible. Aliens on the scale of the Great Old Ones could be considered mystical, are they not beings that come from a dimension beyond time and space, holders of a knowledge that is far older than man? They see how the universe works in ways that man will never be able to understand let alone fathom. Could magic just be the relearning of this ancient knowledge. Knowledge of rituals to call forth alien/deamon entities, of rituals to travel to the outer planes or open gateways to different dimensions or realities. Knowledge of how to harness and manipulate matter and both natural and "unatural" forms of energy. As you point out Dreams in the Witch-House deffinatly leans in that direction. Beings that as far as humans understand time were here, are here now and always will be here. A primitive culture somehow learning of creatures like these would easily consider them "gods with magical abilities". Perhaps magic and technology are two sides of the same coin, just different methods of manipulating different types of energy. Any advance technology would appear as magic to some one from a more primitive society. The endless possibilties of what constitutes the rationalazation is left only up to the creative ability of the story teller. Which specific vehicle anyone prefers is a very subjective and personal choice.
The Dunwich Horror as you point out supports both while the story is told more in the fasion of horror many sci-fi elements are there. From the view of the townsfolk of Dunwich it would indeed stink of noisome witchery and corruptions of antideluvian wizardy most foul! Aboinations so horrible and unholy that any scrap of any such terrible forbidden knowledge would best be left to rot amongst the deepest of those forgotten abysses of cyclopean nightmares. From whence strange aeons ago they first spawned, bursting forth from those dark impossible, unatural angles, deep apertures of loathsome aberrant geometry. Quietly beckoning ancient primeval secrets. Barely whispering snatches of archaic eldritch forumulas. Glibbering knowledge of unknown pre-human creatures and beings so impossibly fantastic, that by any natural law shouldn't exsist. Absurdly calling unmentionable primal secrets echoing of protohistory and other unimaginable primordial certainties. Arcane facts and secrets so vast and so terrifing that they are better left in the realm of those cold, dark half-exsistant, half-forgotten spaces that violate coherence, transgress logic, and bypass reason. Those omited spaces containing the awareness of all those things humanity should never know, all the things humanity was never meant to know...and all that humanity MUST never know! (Please excuse my indulgence but it was enjoyable for me LOL!!) Though the three profs from MU on the otherhand may have refered to it as magic, but I think they understood they were dealing with alien entites and dimensional travel, and it would be easier to explain to the townfolk as magic in any case. It would depend also on how much other Lovecraft you have read. If The Dunwich Horror and his earlier macabe stuff were the only stories you had read it would be a lot easier to get a more Horror/Magic/Demon impression. The more you read though the more you begin to see how it is really more than that, and what mankind calls demons and magic are really aliens (connected with "dark rites and rituals") remembered from our unconsciousness from the primitve brains of our ancestors aeons ago. Adding to the butt of the joke is that humanity may just be a byproduct of one of thier anciet experiments. However as already established I perfere to see the sci-fi side. LOL!
Howard and Bloch were two of Lovecraft's correspondents and part of his circle, along with Clark Ashton Smith, Frank Belknap Long, Henry Kuttner, and others. They used Yog-Sothothery the way it was intended as background. Part of the joke (or perhaps the whole joke) was to perpatrate the fact that the mythos were real. To that end they would borrow elements from each others stories to create and perpetuate the illusion that they were writing about an ancient knowledge and just "presenting" it as fiction. The spellings of entities would usually be different but many of the same tomes carried over (it is usually easy to spot if you are familiar with Yog-Sothotherey). It also helps to reinforce the corrutipon of the ancient knowledge as each writer had thier own story cycle and using it as background when needed helped to form what seemed like ancient knowledge being subtly different yet very pervasive background themes seem to emerge. An astute reader may begin to pick up on these themes and start to explore them. You start to get the impression of a knowledge so ancient and corrupted that it still survives to this day in many different forms. Lovecraft had to frequently remind people his stories were just fiction. With the extent that the mythos has invaded modern popular culture I think Lovecraft has excedded his wildest dreams.
I'm almost embarassed to admit it but Star Trek TOS was probably the single greatest influence on me as a child and was my introduction to sci-fi. I didn't know that What Are Little Girls Made Of was based on At The Mountains Of Madness but I rewatched it with what you said in mind and it makes perfect sense, Bloch perpetuating the mythos as background. I wished he'd called them the Elder Ones as opposed to the Old Ones but again it goes to show the further corruption of this antidulvian knowledge even in the 23rd century! Bloch also wrote the Catspaw episode (s2x07), at the end of it the aliens real form although very small is very Cthulhu like.
I havn't seen Crimson Cult but it is on my list of movies I'm looking for. I just recently aquired Quatermass and the Pit from Hammer films also Lovecraft inspired and although not based on any of his work directly you can see elements of Yog-Sothothery in it. Not a bad little movie for late 60's english sci-fi though. Apperantly there was also a TV series as well but I have never seen any of it. (It is also the movie that John Carpenter remade as Prince of Darkness). I also just watched Beyond the Wall of Sleep a Lovecraft "inspired" movie very loosly based on the story of the same name in the vein of Brian Yunza/Stuart Gordon Lovecraft "inspired" movies loosly based on stories of usually the same name (*cough* Shadow Over Innsmouth I mean Dagon *cough*). I found it almost unwatchable and would be hard pressed to recomend it to anyone. However as a b movie it isn't a bad little low budget piece and does have some good points. My biggest complaints being the acting (or serious lack thereof in this case) and the over-used imagery and MTV style editing. I have also just seen the Masters of Horror: Dreams in the Witch-House directed by Gordon. His best attempt at an addaptation so far but it is still a bit lacking. I have heard a lot of people say The Resurrected is a faitful adaption of The Case of Charles Dexter Ward, I will say it is probably on of the better adaptions of a Lovecraft piece (updated for modern times) but it seems a bit lacking in some areas to be called fathful.
In all honesty I have not read any of the works by any of the other authors in "Lovecraft's Circle". So I have no way of comparing them. A friend of mine just lent me a book called Shadows Bend by David Barbour and Richard Raleigh, that is a what if story. What if Robert Howard and HP Lovecraft had actually met. "The book begins with Lovecraft on a bus, travelling to Texas to enlist the help of Howard, whom he thinks is the only person who might possibly believe the frightening tale he has to tell. Arriving precipitously at Howard's home in the middle of a violent storm, Lovecraft blurts out his story. A collector of antiquities, he recently acquired a Kachina doll whose features, strangely, recall those of the Old Ones of his fiction -- ancient, powerful extraterrestrial beings who became trapped on earth and now lie sleeping in deep hidden places. Inside the doll's clay head he discovered a bizarre alien Artifact, imprinted with the face of Cthulhu, most powerful of the Old Ones. Since then he's been pursued by horrible nightmares and a sense of being watched, and by the dread that elements of his invented mythos are somehow taking form in the real world." Clark Ashton Smith shows up as well and claims to have a copy of Lovecraft's "fictional" Necronomicon! I found it it very enteraining and understanding what I know of the stages of Lovecraft now it is faithfull to the first stage and uses Yog-Sothothery in the background. It is also a fun story much in the vein of Lovecraft's own work, but with out a lot of the arcahic language. You should check it out if you get a chance.
Look I even changed my sig!
What part of:
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Don't you understand?
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TX-9
18 years ago
Yes, I'll have to look these up. I'll use your post as a reference. Much thanks! I did see "Dagan". The purple girl in it was very reminesent of the green 'Barbara Steele' in "Curse of the Crimson Cult". In fact that purple girl in "Dagan" has been compared by critics to Barbara Steele in her youth (back in 1968, when she did her cameo in 'Crimson Cult'). 'CRIMSON CULT', like 'DAGON' also had quite a bit of Sado-Masochism and nudity. I really think the former influenced the latter (unfortunatly neither seems much influenced by Lovecraft!LOL!).
Yes, the 'pupets' featured at the end of the Star Trek episode 'CATSPAW' did look like little Cthulhuian horrors!LOL! Robert Bloch really was sly about working Lovecraft into the Trek universe!LOL! Also of interest was 'the transmuter' (A devise used by the aleins in 'CATSPAW'. Kirk and crew percieve the 'transmuter' as a wizards wand but, like the apearance of Korb and Sylvia, this is an illusion. And yet, Kirk is able to use this illusion as a weapon against the aliens once he figures out that the illusions created with the help of the 'transmuter' are as intense for the aliens as they are for Kirk and crew. It could create illusion's so intense and seemingly tangible they could actualy kill (or make Sylvia so addicted to her human form that she's willing to rebel against Korab [or Korb, or whatever he was called]). It could be used for mind control but could also be used to transport Korb and Sylvia from their own universe into our own (perhaps a form of interdiminsional travel). With the transmuter destroyed, Korab and Sylvia's fragile forms are no longer able to sustain themselves in our universe. Thus, indirectly, via the transmuter', we have a possible reference to Yog-Sothoth itself!LOL! It is unclear what exactly 'the transmuter' is. Again, the line between magic and science blures. I blieve the term 'transmuter' is a term derived from the occult science of 'alchemy'. However, like Yog-sothoth, the transmuter seems related to interdeminsional travel.
Yes the mythos is really a great thing; the way it takes on a life of its own. Even Tolkein didn't accomplish this (as many more short stories set in the mythos have probably been written by diverse authers then have short stories set in Tolkeins Middle-earth!). I wander if 'the gospels of Jesus Christ' started out like this. Now there's a blasphemous thought!LOL! I'm sure thoughts such as this (that the bible is just another 'mythos' that took on a life of its own and became a religion) crossed the mind of Lovecraft and no doubt explained why he was such a materialist and atheist. Perhaps myths are living things and occationaly evolve into religions! On an earlier post, I mentioned the work of occultist Donnald Tyson who has paid homage to Lovecraft by doing what Lovecraft never dared attempt; writing a NECRONOMICON that contains all the passages sited by Lovecraft in his stories (while drawing on Tyson's expert knowledge of the occult and on litterature to fill in the gaps). Tyson has written and published an ersatz autobiogaphy of Alhazred (an even more massive tome) to go with it! Together these tomes are possibly more weighty then the combined prose of Lovecraft put togeather! Tyson is even coming out with a NECRONOMICON TAROT DECK based on his version of THE NECRONOMICON. One wanders if 'the mythos' started by Lovecraft is slowly but surely comming true.
What do you think of Role Playing Games like THE CALL OF CTHULHU? Do you think these would make good 'reference material' for the Cthulhu mythos? Have their ever been any Cthulhu language books (reminesent of the KLINGON LANGUAGE BOOKS published by linguist Mark Okrand?).
Love your new signature BTW!
"AM I MAKING YOU RANDY?"-Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.
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n00bzrus
18 years ago
WOW! Thank you again. I had never thought of the "transmuter" as a possible link or reference to Yog-Sothoth but again everything you said makes sense. I will now have to go back a rewatch that episode! LOL! That episode really does blur the line between magic and tech maybe thats one reason it's one of my favorites, though it can be very hard to watch sometimes. The set design is almost laughable! I don't think it was "horrorfiying" even in '67, and the acting is sooooo over the top in places. (Although I guess that could be said of any ST:TOS episode LOL!)
I had heard that someone was doing a "real" Necronomicon. I was under the impression that it was already out but I may have misread. I am sure Lovecraft would be completly full of himself if he knew about it. I have also heard many things about The Crimson Cult, most of them bad, so I think I know what to expect from it but I have been suprised in the past. I was also refering to Reanimator and From Beyond as well in that Dagon jab. (All three were produced buy Brian Yunza and directed by Stuart Gordon, and although fun B horror movies have little in common with thier source material).
It might amuse you to find out that although being familiar with a lot of Lovecraft's stories and although I had read The Call of Cthulhu, The Shadow Out of Time, The Colour Out of Space and a lot of his macabre stuff. I had not read any of the dream worlds and many of his mythos "classics" (At the Mountains of Madness, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward (could be argued not a "mythos" classic but still), The Dunwich Horror etc.) untill recently. This really suprised me, I thought I was much more knowledgeable about the mythos than I really was. That is one reason I am really enjoying this exchange with you it helps me to crystalize it all in my head. I'm sure reading and rereading his stuff helps a bit too. There is a lot to take in and it is easy to start getting the different enties confused, and to figure out how they relate to one another since it is never reveled at any time, and you only get bits and pieces here and there and have to put it together yourself. I know I want to reread At the Mountains of Madness again to asorb more of it and because for some reason I keep confusing it with elements from The Shadow Out of Time.
You were asking about role playing material as reference material. I used to own The Call of Cthulhu Chaosium rulebook and several supplements (I may still own them, most of my stuff is in storage and I did sell a bunch of my gaming stuff several years ago, so I don't know.) It would appear that this is probably what I based most of my earlier understanding of the mythos on. It would also explain some things I was confused about as well. It seems to be a more a blending of the 1st and 2nd stages of the mythos, and as already established I tend to not only lean twords the first stage but also be a purist of Lovecrafts work. It depends on what sort of reference material you want, the biggest problem with it is that it reduces the mythos down to "stats" to fit into the framework of the rules system. It could be helpful but I find wikipedia to be a much better source and helps you tie it all together as well. Reading Lovecraft too might also prove to be helpful. (I know obvious! LOL!)
A good site I have found that seems to have all of Lovecrafts short stories:
http://www.dagon bytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/index.html - also has Poe and other "classic" horror (the dagon bytes is one word with no space but if I type it in as one word it sets off the filter and comes out as *beep* which is wierd because dagon and bytes alone don't set off the filter. WTF?!?)
and this site has his complete collected works in .pdf format:
http://www.noveltynet.org/content/books/lovecraft/index.php - also includes poetery and some letters as well
I think the reason Tolkien's stuff never took off the same way was because it was to limited in scope. You can take the framework of Yog-Sothothery and work it into anything, anytime, anywhere, anyplace, even Tolkien's work if someone were so inclined. I prefer stuff based in the 20-30's because there were places in the world that really were unknown and unexplored then. It gives the mythos a certain basis in reality and a credibilty that it lacks in this age of cell phones/GPS/spy satallites etc. As for your christian mythos concept, that is a can of worms I don't want to open! fnord (And would probably get this post and possibly the entire thread deleted from what I have seen on other boards here!) LOL!!!
I don't know if you like The Outer Limits (TOS), but I have recently gotten my hands on them and are in the process of watching them now. I have come across no direct reference I can see to the mythos but at least 2 creatures seem to be mythos inspired. In The Mice the Chromoite looks like an anthropoid ameboid head/torso with crustasious like hands/claws and a pair of humanoid legs. The amboid part being made of rubber or plastic and not really matching the cloth legs of the costume. Where the mouth would be on a human several tendrils come down looking suspiciosly Cthulhu like. The top part is used in another episode The Guests (very surreal and although not one of the best episodes is one of the most interesting) and you can still see the tendrils but they are not as pronounced as the earlier epsode. Another episode Tourist Attraction has creatures that are fish like yet with hands, feet and large eyes. Somewhere in the episode it is said that it was an old native fish-god and the natives used to know how to commincate with them. Deep Ones? Anthropoid fish things may not mean Deep Ones it could be some variation on mer-men or "sea monster" but I got a Lovecraftian feel from it (perhaps I am just seeing what I want to see though). I don't recognize any of the writers so far but it doesn't mean they weren't influenced by Lovecraft or his mythos.
What part of:
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Don't you understand?
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TX-9
18 years ago
Hi! yes I've seen the origional OUTER LIMITS and liked it quite a lot. I don't know if your right about those creatures however. My favortie OUTER LIMITS episode is DEMON WITH A GLASS HAND by Harlan Ellison. I think this was Robert Culps best role ever in his career! Classic! Arlene Martel is pretty good on the eyes in that episode (BTW, she also plays Spocks Vulcan wife T'pring in the STTOS episode AMUCK TIME). I also liked the episode with Martin Landau (in which he plays a hidiously malformed mutant from a post-apocaclyptic earth in the distant future. Landau's prosthetic makeup job is horrifying for its day! He travels back in time to prevent the destruction of earth and the mutation of the human gene pool by atomic radiation. He succeeds but, unfortunately for him, he ends up preventing his own birth in the process! At least that's how I remember it. I won't say this was Landau's best role ever (the man has enjoyed a TV and motion-picture career far more succesful then that of Robert Culp)but it was one of his better TV roles just the same. I really should buy these on dvd some day! I think there was only a season or to ever filmed-Right?
The Donald Tyson NECRONOMICON is already published. So is the Abdule Alhazred autobigraphy entitled ALHAZRED. I own both but haven't gotten around to reading them all yet (well, I've read a couple of chapters of Tyson's THE NECRONOMICON and its quite good). The two complement each other. Only the NECRONOMICON TAROT DECK has yet to be published. It should be out next year, I think. I'll tell you what I think of Tysons Necronomicon after I finish reading it. Problem is, I've been reading several things at once!LOL!
I read all of Lovecraft, even the dream cycle, but that was twenty years ago and I don't remember too much about it. I need to read them again! I have all the LOVECRAFT short stories by DEL REY (four volumes). Theres also a collection of his complete poems in one volume (for the first time). Only a small fraction of these poems deal with either the dream cycle or Yog-Sothothery. One day I'd love to own all the published letters of Lovecraft as well as the poems. Unfortunately, with the invention of the internet, I don't read nearly as much as I did in pre-internet times! Well, I'm reading lots on the internet (wickipedia and IMDB, and Amazon reviews, etc.) but not enough out of books! What would SAMUEL COGLEY ATN.AT LAW say (remember the lawyer character who loved books and hated computers, from the Origional Star Trek episode entitled COURT MARTIAL!LOL!)?
"AM I MAKING YOU RANDY?"-Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery.
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