MovieChat Forums > Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion > Why did the show overplay Mary's attract...

Why did the show overplay Mary's attractiveness?

posted 8 years ago by slackline70
34 replies | jump to latest

I'm not saying Mary Tyler Moore was a hag. Just that she wasn't anywhere near as attractive as the show made her out to be.

I mean, she was just a decent-looking, good-hearted, slightly older woman. And the show never made her out to be anything different.

Except when it came to the legions of men who just couldn't keep their hands off of her. Pretty much every other episode was about a suitor who - welcome or not - was obsessed with Mary. Sometimes it was a married man, sometimes it was a best friend's husband, sometimes it was a kid, sometimes it was an old man, sometimes it was a co-worker, and sometimes it was a complete stranger. But the one thing that was always the same was that the suitor acted like he had never before seen a women as stunningly beautiful as Mary.

And when the storylines weren't shoving the pretense of Mary's attractiveness down your throat, the other characters - male and female alike - were saying outright what a knock-out she was.

Personally, I always thought Mary was pretty much exactly along the lines of Rhoda. A nice person who was pleasing enough to look at - but certainly not a knockout. And the show never made Rhoda out to be anything else.

The show sold Rhoda just fine as a good-hearted woman who was likable and believable without being a sex-symbol - enough to give her her own show.

So why did they feel it so necessary to fire-hose us each week that Mary was such a knockout?

Did MTM have that written into her contract?

[–] iray-2 8 years ago

It seems to me that in absolutely every single instance of Mary being pursued by various suitors, first and foremost the men are attracted to her warmth, intelligence and decency. The fact that she was easy on the eyes was just an extra bonus. Never EVER felt the show 'shoved her physical attractiveness down our throats'.

[–] slackline70 8 years ago

I recently re-watched a number of episodes - and I respectfully disagree. In fact, quite a few of the guys who became obsessed with Mary weren't exactly the types who would care much about anyone's warmth, intelligence and decency. One of them started taking his shirt off on the first date.

In the same way, upon re-watching a number of the episodes - it often seemed like a lot of the early episodes tried to shoe-horn Rhoda as Mary's 'unattractive' or at least 'less attractive' friend. On several occasions, they even suggested Rhoda had some sort of a serious weight issue. If you don't believe me, watch some of the earlier episodes.

Maybe that was just part of what the writers thought would be an interesting dynamic between the two characters. Personally, though, I just don't see Mary as having any advantage over Rhoda looks-wise. They were both just pleasant, nice-looking women. But sorry, Rhoda wasn't fat and frumpy; and Mary wasn't a knock-out.

[–] glennh69 8 years ago

In the same way, upon re-watching a number of the episodes - it often seemed like a lot of the early episodes tried to shoe-horn Rhoda as Mary's 'unattractive' or at least 'less attractive' friend. On several occasions, they even suggested Rhoda had some sort of a serious weight issue. If you don't believe me, watch some of the earlier episodes.

I completely agree, but to argue the writers' point of view, I believe the contrast between Mary & Rhoda was supposed to have as much to do with attitude as raw physical appearance. Mary was a wholesome, Midwestern girl from a supportive family. She was very optimistic, naively confident, and invigorated by an opportunity to spread her wings and attempt a career in the big city.

Rhoda, on the other hand, was born & bred in the big city (a much bigger one than Minneapolis). She was more cynical, streetwise, and had experienced a lifetime of hard knocks: career-wise, her dating experience, and dealing with parents who were not always supportive of her dreams & goals. This led Rhoda to be more self-deprecating than Mary as well.

Consequently, physical appearance aside, I think the optimistic & somewhat naive "Mary" type personality would naturally attract more suitors than the "Rhoda" type (at least in Minnesota).

[–] LoriBug77 8 years ago

I remember hearing Rhoda was supp to be fat, too. What a contrast to today when, at least to my middle-aged, 2016 eyes - 1970 Rhonda looks average, and 1970 Mary looks REALLY skinny.

[–] iray-2 8 years ago

>>I recently re-watched a number of episodes - and I respectfully disagree. In fact, quite a few of the guys who became obsessed with Mary weren't exactly the types who would care much about anyone's warmth, intelligence and decency.<<

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement :-) In every case where the guys are obsessed her 'knock-out looks', the point is that those guys are jerks. That characteristic in their behavior is written for comic effect - to illustrate how undesirable THEY are. In the episodes where Mary is seriously dating desirable, rational men, it seems they are attracted to her charm - not necessarily the 'knock out looks' that they 'shove down our throats'.

From the beginning, this show was rightfully lauded as an ensemble effort - not just a showcase for its star (a la THAT GIRL.) I highly doubt that the actress Mary Tyler Moore pressured the writers and producers to build up her 'knock out' looks. And I doubt that the talented group of up and coming writers and producers would have stuck around very long if she did.

[–] onwardsandupwards 8 years ago

The writers had a tendency of "playing up" Mary's looks. Whilst she was attractive, she wasn't as beautiful as the show made her out to be. Moore in my opinion was at the height of her appeal when she was playing Laura on "The Dick Van Dyke Show"

Truthfully I always thought Valerie Harper was the more attractive actress which is why I was never sold on her character (Rhoda) being the plain, frumpy best friend because Harper was never that.

Fast forward to "Rhoda" you could actually believe that Brenda (played by Julie Kavner) being the chubby, plainer sidekick that Rhoda wasn't.

[–] slackline70 8 years ago

It's funny you mention that Mary Tyler Moore's attractiveness had peaked had peaked during her Dick Van Dyke years.

She certainly wasn't a withered crone by the time she got her own show - but Mary's age was a lot like her attractiveness in that the writers clearly seemed to be trying to make her out to be younger than she was. And like her attractiveness, making her out to be younger often just drew more attention to the fact that Mary Tyler Moore was 35 when the show began rather than the 30 that was quoted as her character Mary Richard's age. Having smoked for years, she honestly didn't even look particularly young for 35.

I know I'm probably going to get some flack for making the observation that Mary wasn't as attractive or as young as the show often made her out to be - but I'm not at all saying Mary Richards was any less of a character because of this. To the contrary, I think a big part of what made the show such a hit was that it had a likable, engaging female lead who women could identify with personally and men could identify as someone who they might actually have a relationship - much more than a 30-year-old knockout.

If only the Mary Tyler Moore and/or the writers realized this.

[–] pjpurple-1 8 years ago

I thought MTM was at the height of her attractiveness on the show around the third and fourth seasons. In the last two seasons she did not look well. It had more to do with her health. Being a serious diabetic can take a toll on a person's looks plus Mary Tyler Moore had been a heavy smoker. And she herself said that she spent way to much time in the sun getting a tan.

On the other hand when I first watched the show as a child I thought the cracks and put downs about Rhoda were just meant as jokes. I had no idea we were supposed to think of Rhoda as unattractive. I always thought she was more beautiful than Mary and when Valerie Harper lost a few pounds she was stunning.

[–] InherentlyYours 8 years ago

Actually, Mary was only 32 when the show began. She always looked older than her years. Sun damage, perhaps. I think Moore, with her delicate/sculptured features and overall presence, was prettier than Harper, even if they did imply that Rhoda was the less attractive one.

But, if you recall Trish Noble, the women who Ted almost cheats with, he has a line to/about Mary: "she makes you look like a dog" (or something like that)

[–] pioneergrrrl (2388) 3 years ago

Everybody looked older then. It was a combo re style of dress (there were no casual fridays!) and the medical care back then (remember this was early 1970s!!) the smoking, and sun.

I myself have multiple disabilities but I look younger since I don't smoke and it's 2021. working in offices where I can wear pant suits is not a big deal. I've even worked in offices where I can wear jeans and a t-shirt.

[–] I_Love_Hutch 8 years ago

Mary was at her most attractive during the 5th season, specifically the episode "You Always Hurt the One You Hate", precisely the scene where Mary visits Ted in the hospital. Maybe Mary wasn't sexy or adorable, but she had a combination of qualities that made her extremely appealing. Intelligent, kind, vulnerable, resilient, warm, curious, patient, hard-working, forgiving, loyal, stylish, very attractive and a desperately bad hostess...

The fifth season is this superb show's best season in every way.

[–] Techto (1063) 3 years ago

>”...precisely the scene...”

LOL. That is quite specific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGYcIZ-6Wt4

She’s attractive but more cute than pretty, IMO.

[–] ChrisCuda 8 years ago

I just watched the ep where Murray is in love with Mary. He goes to Lou for advice anout it, and not once does he mention her looks. Everything he talks about is the way she makes him feel. Mary's warmth, humor and personality had a lot to do with her attractiveness. I personally think she was absolutely adorable during the 1970's on her show. I could see men going for her every bit as much as they did. Not a stretch in my book.

[–] pjpurple-1 8 years ago

Now that you mention it, yeah that's true about Mary being the "total package" and not just a pretty face. Murray was attracted to more than just her looks. Mary had a warmth and a charm that made her very appealing. She was kind, loving and had a sweet nature. I could definitely see men falling in love with her.

[–] InherentlyYours 8 years ago

I found it an awkward show, since Murray is not going to just fall-out-of love with her after this episode.

[–] Huge_Ack_Man 8 years ago

I would attribute that to the fact that when she was on the Dick Van Dyke Show she was very attractive.

If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed. If you do...you are misinformed---Mark Twain

[–] mistymturnerhustad 8 years ago

When Mary Tyler Moore was on the Dick Van Dyke show I thought she was gorgeous. However, as the Mary Tyler Moore show went on I really thought the smoking, alcoholism, and diabetes really started to show. There are a lot of woman in their 30s that I think are far more attractive than she was, but she was very likable so maybe that made her more attractive to men.

[–] information_police 8 years ago

Well, first of all, she was very attractive. No question about that.

But, the whole premise of the show was to focus on a single woman living in a city, and working on a career. Maybe you're not a single woman or have never talked to a single woman, but getting hit on constantly is a part of life. And that's any woman, if she's above average looking it is more intense.

[–] InherentlyYours 7 years ago

But, the whole premise of the show was to focus on a single woman living in a city, and working on a career. Maybe you're not a single woman or have never talked to a single woman, but getting hit on constantly is a part of life. And that's any woman, if she's above average looking it is more intense.

How do you know it's every woman?
And if you didn't get hit on, you'd complain about what's wrong. Maybe you've never talked to a confident secure single man, as you're focusing on how your gender is so special and full of mystique. You may just look loose. It's a part of life.

[–] busta_cap 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Wait a few years and men will be ignoring you. It's a part of life. Or maybe it's happened already as this post is old. Then you'll be complaining about that.

[–] darryl-tahirali 8 years ago

Good discussion here with points I do agree with (I don't think MTM was a knockout but her attractiveness was hardly based her looks alone). My two cents is that this was not unnoticed at the time of the show. Those perceptive satirists at Mad magazine picked up right away on the "every man goes ga-ga for Mary" theme in its contemporaneous MTM parody.

In fact, the punchline is that one of those men returns at the end of the piece; however, he's looking for Rhoda (dubbed "Rodent" in Madspeak), which sends everyone into a tizzy because he's blown the premise of the show--and now Mary is going to erupt into a neurotic fit because she is not being fawned over by every man in sight.

That said, MTM did have a terrific figure--and don't think the costumers didn't know it.

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"Meretricious persiflage!" -- D.H. Lawrence

[–] anzsubz 7 years ago

I'm so glad to see someone remembers "Rodent"!