MovieChat Forums > The Wild Bunch (1969) Discussion > difference between men and woman

difference between men and woman

posted 11 years ago by crakatoot
15 replies | jump to latest

recentley i watched two westerns with my mom: The Wild Bunch and The Good, the bad and the ugly
which i think we can all agree are the two best westerns

during the wild bunch at the scene when angel shoots his exgirlfriend
while she is sititing on the generals lap my mom was apalled that no one cared the girl got killed
i said mom you just don't understand; it's a western
of course they don't care some chick got killed

during the the The Good, the bad and the ugly
at the very end when they are all dueling over the money
she said with all that loot
why don't they just split it
again, i had to say

Mom you just don't understand; it's a western
they can't split it

it;s just funny how woman look at the things
and the way men look at things
you know the way men look at things being the right way

i told you not to stop the boat. Now lets go. Apocaylpse Now

[–] craigstampermovies 11 years ago

I don't think that reflects any fundamental difference between men and women. The shooting of the woman in The Wild Bunch is intended to be shocking. Sam Peckinpah's westerns were not traditional westerns. Your impression that the brutality of the characters in The Wild Bunch is just part of the traditional Western film myth isn't quite right. Peckinpah's westerns are revisionist, with characters and action that differ from most westerns, an approach culminating in Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid (1973). The Wild Bunch was shocking to most audiences at the time, and its controversial content contributed to its success at the box office. Similarly, The Good, The Bad and The Ugly was made by Sergio Leone, who was not part of American Western film, but a European who made "spaghetti westerns". His films, despite being homages in some ways to the American Western, also departed significantly from that style by bringing a European sensibility to the themes, and suggesting a different set of values and motivations behind characters than those common to the traditional American Western. Despite the fact that in his own life Sam Peckinpah, who was an alcoholic and drug addict, had a problem with violent outbursts including against women, his films attempted a more complex understanding of violence (as a problem created by human beings preoccupied with power and dominance) than that depicted in the traditional western. He also thought that his more graphic depictions of violence would be cathartic for audiences and actually suppress audiences' appetite for violence. He later said he was discouraged to conclude that this had not occurred, but that instead people had become accustomed to the new graphic depictions and enjoyed the violence in his films. This makes your perception of the brutality he depicted as just run-of-the-mill, ironic. I'd add that I would not rank "The Good The Bad and The Ugly" and "The Wild Bunch" as the two greatest Westerns, though they would be on that list. "Stagecoach", "Shane", "The Searchers", "Red River", and "High Noon", among others, are high on the list.

[–] crakatoot 11 years ago

I got that it's suppose to be horrible, i'm not STUPID. and of course of i'm not talking for all mankind, cause I, you know can't. Rather I was referring to how me, as a man, looks at things differently then my mother, her being a woman. I don't mean to spell things out like this but I think you might be reading more into my post then I intended. I don't mean to discusses European sensibilities or the changing views on violence in our society. rather I wanted to talk about how the different genders view things in different ways. How a man and a woman can watch a scene in a western and both come to different conclusions. One line of thought based on emotion and the other on logic. And again I know Sam didn't like violence that is why he made it so graphic, the same thing with Scorcese (Thought the scene with the machine gun In the wild bunch was pretty bad ass).

i told you not to stop the boat. Now lets go. Apocaylpse Now

[–] ScopeWatcher 9 years ago

I agree that THE WILD BUNCH is among the greatest of Westerns (and among films of all genres, to me). But while THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY is popular as the funniest of Sergio Leone's films, I don't think it's even the best of his trilogy: FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE is a superior story and the better film. But it's Leone's magnificent ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST that would deserve a spot on the list of the best Westerns -- along with Peckinpah's RIDE THE HIGH COUNTRY and THE WILD BUNCH.

Actually, crakatoot, your mom's GBU question about "splitting the loot" is quotably funny. The acid test will be whether my wife, who enjoys Westerns, gets it!

Most great films deserve a more appreciative audience than they get.

[–] thesnowleopard 8 years ago

I got that it's suppose to be horrible, i'm not STUPID.

You're not doing a very good job of proving that.

Rather I was referring to how me, as a man, looks at things differently then my mother, her being a woman.

Or maybe you're just too young and parochial in your thinking to get what she's driving at--as a woman, of course she's going to notice that nobody in the story cares very much about Teresa's murder (though it's hardly something a man would miss if he's paying attention). It is, in fact, a critical plot point that you appear to have missed in your obsession with this whole essentialist theory that men and women have fundamentally opposing views of westerns.

Now one could argue persuasively that there's a fair bit of sexism and racism in the story, much of it not exactly doing the film any favors. Peckinpah was no feminist and this is definitely a male fantasy that doesn't reflect this period of Mexican history at all well (for a start, women in the Mexican Revolution did considerably more than pop out babies and act as sexual prizes for the men).

However, let's get back to Peckinpah's vision. I think Peckinpah very much intends the literary irony that the characters don't care very much about Teresa's murder, while to Peckinpah, that's the turning point that dooms all of the major characters.

For such an iconic post-Hays Code western, The Wild Bunch adheres to Hays Code morality remarkably well, taking traditionally doomed 30s-style gangster hero types and placing them in a turn-of-the-century western. This is classic tragedy, where the Heroes all have tragic flaws that foretell and explain their doom.

Angel is the only one who appears at first not to fit into this pattern. He's an idealist, a bit naive, a would-be revolutionary. But when he loses it and murders Teresa, that mortal sin sets up the karmic justice of his slow torture-murder. The waffling of the others, and their refusal either to condemn his act or to back him up at first, dooms them, too. They're all going down eventually, but Teresa's murder is the turning point that foreshadows this one will be their last battle.

As craigstampermovies puts it, the scene is intentionally shocking. Your mom was smart to pick up on the important point that no one cared about Teresa's death.

Again, in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, she's quite right--they *could* just split it up, but they're dumb and they're amoral, so they fight over it instead. It's all right there in the title. If anything, it could be The Smart, The Stupid, and Complete Idiot, and be just as accurate.

Innsmouth Free Press http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com

[–] crakatoot 8 years ago

I dont think so

[–] thesnowleopard 8 years ago

Really? That's it? After the extended rants you've done on this thread over the years, that's all you can come up with?

Innsmouth Free Press http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com

[–] crakatoot 8 years ago

I've done two rants on this post, that's it. And it was a long time ago.

And I wasn't exactly sober when I did the second one, hence the somewhat eccentric and colorful language.

Still your rampant condescension is not warranted.

Not a good way to start a dialogue.

But per your points, if you want me to go into more detail, I can.

In both cases I think your focusing on those deaths way to much.

Now both of these films aren't just about the Old West, there also about War. The Good , the Bad and the Ugly is set during the Civil War and the Wild Bunch is set during the Mexican Revolution, right before WW I.

You see more War stuff in the extended cuts of the movies, which I totally recommend if you haven't seen either one of them yet.

The point being, in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. the idea is that the antics of the three main characters are nothing compared to the death toll of the Civil War.

And in the Wild Bunch, the more personalized, hands on savagery that we see displayed by the Wild Bunch, is now being replaced by the more industrialized type of murder.
Where killing is less personal, more like game. Think about the scene in the beginning where the kids are killing all those insects as part of some sick game.

That's why we see all those scenes at the end with the machine game.

So with both the final duel at the end of the The Good, the Bad and the Ugly and that girl getting killed in the Wild Bunch, they were not suppose to be hugely significant deaths
but just another body for the pile.

I told you not to stop the boat. Now lets go. Apocalypse Now

[–] Navaros 8 years ago

"Stagecoach"

ROFL! Stagecoach is probably the worst Western of all-time! Nothing happens at all until one battle at the very end, and that battle is utterly retarded.

[–] Beau_Buffet 7 years ago

Top 5 westerns of all-time for me.

Also, it was THE major influence for Orson Welles when he made his first movie, I don't know if you heard about it... it's called Citizen Kane.

[–] old-skool101 10 years ago

If one scene epitomizes the difference between men and women in movie history....its the baseball vote scene in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Next.

[–] Noir-It-All 8 years ago

The genre was dominated by males. Civization was as much about increasing the percentage of women as the superior technology.

[–] Navaros 8 years ago

Your OP is based on a false premise. You claim that no one cares because it is a woman, but that is wrong. No one cares because it is a backstabber. And your mom should have been appalled by her backstabbing, as the characters are & as most viewers are. Why wasn't she? It sounds like your mom just didn't follow the plot (and maybe you didn't either?).

[–] crakatoot 8 years ago

No Angel cared because of that. No one else cared about that girl. The General was only annoyed because he thought Angel was trying to kill him.

[–] joegerardi-1 8 years ago

recentley i watched two westerns with my mom: The Wild Bunch and The Good, the bad and the ugly which i think we can all agree are the two best westerns

No, there's no way I would agree that these are the two BEST Westerns. There's far too many to fit in that category: "The Searchers," "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon," "Red River," "The Guns of the Magnificent Seven," "Jeremiah Johnson" and many, many more.

TGTBaTU was by no means an accurate depiction of the Old West: it was an Italian caricature of what they thought the West was.

If you think these are the best Westerns, you need to read a little more about what the world was really like back then.

..Joe

[–] crakatoot 8 years ago

NONE of those films are realistic depictions of the old west. That has nothing to do with whether they're good or not. And nobody wants to see a movie about the real old west. Read about the actual OK Corral gunfight. It was not nearly as grand as the movies make it out to be.
i told you not to stop the boat. Now lets go. Apocaylpse Now