The Late Sixties and the Movies - Marlowe (1969) Discussion

[–] dmh7-1 17 years ago

This is a subject I have long been fascinated by...

I've seen countless TV and movie depictions of the "hippie" lifestyle, and they are invariably hilarious and wrongheaded. I was - as we called ourselves - a "freak" and I simply do not recognize my lifestyle in these filmic portraits. On TV and film, "hippies" and bikers are often confused, giving us violent, dirty little people with rough drug dealing habits, and a casual brutality toward women. From experience, I can tell anyone how erroneous this is; our drug "dealing" was a very casual affair, done amongst close friends and never involving violence. Women were also an integral part of our groups, although - like all men throughout history - we were totally confused by them! But it was a special time that is not given quite the detailed attention it might deserve. Now it is probably too late, as it was then too early.

I can't say I know why "hippies" are so often badly depicted, except that the Hollywood crowd was too distant from the cultural flow of the times, or perhaps our "drifting and dreamy" utopianism is just simply too difficult to dramatize. Much the same occurs with film versions of Beatniks, who are usually "Maynard g. Krebs" types, spouting bad poetry and using "man" every five words or so. Bohemianism isn't generally understood in its own time. Maybe never...

Dale

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

I was born a generation later, but I've always been devoted to 60's movies. You're mostly right, but the only exceptions I can think of would be "Easy Rider" for hippies and "Hells Angels on Wheels" for bikers. What's your opinion of "Psych-Out"? It was mostly laughable, but it did get most of the details of the Haight Ashbury-scene right, although they had to make the Nicholson character into a conventional tough-guy hero, even though he was in a psychedelic band. Of course if you want to see a really accurate protrayal of the 60's, just watch "Woodstock"!

It also depends on which Hollywood your talking about. Remember, the late 60's and 70's was the era of cutting edge, rebel filmmaking, giving birth to Coppola, Lucas, Friedkin and many other unorthodox filmmakers.

There have been some good recent movies about the era like "1969" featuring an unknown Julia Stiles as a flower child, and how about "Forrest Gump"? It's portrayal of the 60's was unflattering, but still fairly accurate. I thought the whole DC rally scene, featuring Abbie Hoffman, was excellent.

Get me a meeting with Spielberg.

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[–] dmh7-1 16 years ago

I am speaking specifically about cinematic depictions of "hippies" (or "freaks" or "heads") - there were a lot of cutting edge filmmakers at the time, and the film industry has not recovered since. "Easy Rider" I like, but - really - as a depiction of "hippie" lifestyles/philosophy it really doesn't quite get it: Dennis obviously plays the "freak" here, and he's a little flakier than the people I knew and - well - loved. It's a pretty interesting portrayal by Hopper (who should have know), but the mileu of the films ("bikers carrying drugs across America in an attempt to make enough money to scoot off to Mexico") is not really representative of the life as I knew it. Maybe it's not possible to make an interesting film about such a set of Utopian "life drifters" bent on being "in the now" while exploring "fringe" psychologies, drugs, and community living. "Dazed and Confused" is as close to it as anything I guess, and the other Linklaeter film "Slackers" manages to capture a bit of the sense of "just being" we cherished. "Woodstock" - certainly, but that's a different kettle of cannabis!

I truly hate "Forrest Gump" so I might be prejudice against its portrayal of "my people". I haven't seen "1969". I did like "Dick" with Kirstin Dunst - the two girls aren't really "hippies" per se (more like Valley Girls on the wrong coast), but the sheer loathing of Nixon's crew, and exhileration over their downfall did thrill me quite a bit, bring back memories, and - frankly - entertain me to death. I've seen it several times now.

I'm not an expert on this subject of course, and a lot of films have undoubtedly slipped past me. "MASH" has some of the feel.

I suppose I am mainly referring to the TV depictions, which were unrelentingly incorrect and dismissive, but TV tends to take a quick pass on contemporary cultural aspects. Hippies on bikes terrorizing straights, stupid belligerants with beads spouting incoherent political hysteria, etc.

I have recently seen a documentary on the counter culture of the time, narrated by a "fellow travelr" of the crazy time (Peter Coyote who lived in San Francisco and was deeply involved) and it captured the texture, but - again - documentaries are a different consideration. Maybe I'm not even certain about exactly HOW one would go about exploring the subject (more compex than usually thought of) in a way that would be watchable. And there are many different types of tales to tell - including the darker side, like the Manson Family and the Weathermen. It might take a certain "impressionistic" approach to more fully encapsulate all the fellings and memories I have of the time.

Look out! The hippie's selling speed to our baby daughter...

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

The Peter Coyote documentary, titled "Hippies" was excellent. What I was referring to in "Easy Rider" were mainly the hippies at the commune, and I saw the Peter Fonda character, Wyatt, as more of a hippie in spirit who happened to be riding a bike. Also, the people at the commune didn't like Dennis Hopper. "Hells Angels on Wheels", featuring Jack Nicholson with hair, was the absolute best movie depiction of the outlaw biker world.

What did you think of "Psych-Out"? Or for that matter "Head"? If we're talking about horrible TV depictions of hippies, one of the worst, and funniest, would have to be "Dragnet"!

What a long strange trip it's been...

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[–] dmh7-1 16 years ago

Yeah, I get that, and I had forgotten how much "disharmony" existed between Hopper and the communalists. The commune itself struck me as quite a depressed place, and the Hopper character was put off by the "hard scrabbling" lifestyle...as was I honestly. I must admit I was not one attracted to growing watermelons on a poor soil plot!

Oh yeah - "Dragnet" - I really enjoy seeing their depictions of "hippies" - all wild-eyed and constantly high on something. The show "Ironsides" (with Raymond Burr in a wheelchair) was also good for this sort of thing, and that was where I first encountered the "hippie/biker" confusion.

"Psych-Out" - although I have the soundtrack - I haven't seen yet, but now (because of you dammit!) I plan to do so ASAP. And - yes - "Head" - you know I think that film ages pretty well - it's poke at corporate rock and its free-wheeling style are very entertaining. I'm not sure how it really ends up depicting hippies per se, but I think it does deliver a real feeling for the time's mania and fantastic aspects. I was rather surprised - when I saw it again recently - to see that it was not a total washout. Also, there is the (superior) film "The President's Analyst" which has some hippie depiction, but also a genuinely amusing look at the age's paranoias. And then there's "Hair" - which is not so good, but has some insights into the subject. I think - having had this (entertaining in itself) conversation with you - that there is an interesting study to be made of the "Hippie in Film" - perhaps I might use with some elucidation on the subject.

I suppose I am looking for a rather less manic, and day-to-day investigation of the lifestyles of a typical group of non-San Francsico freaks - like my group on the east coast: our travails with employment, the draft, hitchhiking around the country, the easy comraderie between relative strangers, sex, drugs, college, the importance of music, the conflicts with parents and authority, the politics, and such. Something that illuminates all the energies (and idiocies) of the Movement, but also echoes the innocent charm of so many of the days, when we felt we were living (erroneously or not) a model for a new world. There's a lot to it it seems.

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

I remember "The President's Analyst" with James Coburn, long ago. It was a pretty wacko film, made when wacko films could get made. Kind of a James Bond on acid.

I was eight when Woodstock happened. Later I discovered the counterculture almost after the fact, although I remember when I was in Little League, age 11, I opened an equipment shed at the ball park (in the San Fernando Valley) to discover a bunch of hippies inside playing guitar and smoking dope. They invited me in, and of course I panicked and ran like hell. What if I'd gone inside...?

Often I wished I was born ten years earlier, especially when I saw Woodstock, although along with the idealism (and let's face it, the sex, drugs, music and girls, girls, girls) I was put off by the arrogance and abrasiveness of many of the activists.

There are many facets of the whole movement and books have been written about it. It would be great to see a movie like the one you described. I've also thought, and please don't get me wrong, there should be a proper, well casted, well written, big budget version of "Helter Skelter". My pick for Charlie: Willem Dafoe (of course It'll never get made).

BTW, I just remembered. A totally awesome, recent movie about that era, IMO is "The Doors". The last concert scene is incredible in its depiction of 5,000 whacked out freaks in one room.

Get me a meeting with Spielberg.

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[–] dmh7-1 16 years ago

There were a lot of "wacky" films poured out in the giddiness of the 60s, and many of them are now rather timebound, but "The President's Analyst" manages to rise above most of that with some nice performances, and a neat take on corporate power that is even more pertinent today.

If you had gone inside? Today, you would be walking the dogs of the rich and famous, wondering where exactly it all went wrong!

Arrogance? Oh certainly - there was always the possibility for that when Utopianism crept in: one is perhaps too convinced of their correctness. But at least their arrogance was mainly one lacking weapons...But you would have enjoyed what was essentially a wild (and quick) trip through a vast variety of social experiments - there were different paths to choose even in the midst of what is monolithically known as the "Movement" - there were all sorts of chracters pursuing all sorts of ends. It was essentially tied together with the draft and the drugs and the music - the Trifecta of freakdom!

The Manson story is always worth exploring. I read both major books on the subject: Bugliosi's trial report, and Ed Sanders slightly wilder take on the entire experience - there is much to be said about cult behavior. The TV production was actually pretty well done, and there is always the chance even such a horrific tale is a bit long in the tooth to be remade, but it's worth it I think...Dafoe is a good choice, but a bit old for it now maybe...

You know, I generally hate Oliver Stone's films - they're really far too obvious in their explications...BUT Kilmer does a neat job depicting Morrison, who is a cartoon at this remove anyway, and the "scene" is neatly presented - if only the darker and more gothic aspects. I enjoyed seeing it.

Hippies recruited by Venusian Iguana Women to be their sex serfs...

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

Oliver Stone almost always has an agenda, and "subtlety" isn't in his vocabulary, but I do like some of his films. I just remembered another one: "Rainbow Bridge". An alleged documentary, but a funny 60's time capsule. Also, I recently saw "Freedom Train" featuring Janis and The Dead and many others. An excellent Woodstock on wheels.

It is probably a good thing I didn't go inside, but if I was walking their dogs I'd be charging $10,000 a day!

Thanks for not being put off by my Manson movie idea. Dafoe is too old now (I had the inspiration twenty years ago!). Now I don't know. Maybe Tom Sizemore, who did play a serial killer. The actor playing Charlie has to have those spooky eyes and that creepy presence. I've read the Ed Sanders book and almost all the others. I don't think the story is dated. It was on TV last year in a new version, and almost all of the culprits are still alive. (I also think Leslie has paid her debt and should get parole, and not because she was the pretty one!), but mainstream Hollywood will never touch it. The story is just too volatile, and it did affect Hollywood in real life. Probably too many bugs under too many rocks.

It's fun talking to you. Let me know what you think of "Psych-Out".

We got a job.
What kind?
The forever kind.

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[–] rpniew 16 years ago

As long as Manson has been brought up in this board, wasn't there some kind of connection between the Family and Gayle Hunnicutt? I haven't read the Bugliosi or Sanders books in quite a while, but I seem to remember seeing her name there somewhere, most likely in the Sanders book.

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

Sorry, I don't know who she is. Can you elaborate? I read the Sanders book in the 80's. Who's Gayle Hunnicutt?

We got a job.
What kind?
The forever kind.

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[–] DD-931 16 years ago

That's a funny question, considering that Hunnicutt is the female lead in MARLOWE, the movie this thread is on.

I always felt that there were two Hollywoods in the late 60s: the traditional types who made movies like MARLOWE, and the new wave of counterculture types that were making the EASY RIDERS that would (at least for awhile) make the more traditional filmmakers obsolete. It seemed to me that it wasn't until the early 70s that the more accurate portrayals of the counterculture really became possible. Of course by the late 70s all that was pretty much gone, but that's another story...

For me, the film that marks the end of that era was FM.

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[–] rpniew 16 years ago

Frankly, for all the praise given "Easy Rider," I really think "Alice's Restaurant" is the best depiction of the counterculture filmed at the time.

I keep unsuccessfully looking this up on the web, but I could swear I saw Ms. Hunnicutt's name brought up in relation to the Manson case.

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

Actually, I just had a brain fart. Yes, she's in Marlowe. Try Googling Hunnicut, Manson.

The Manson murders had a huge ripple effect in Hollywood. Steve McQueen started carrying a gun. Every star at the time, or anyone who had any connection with Sharon Tate or Roman Polanski thought they were next on Charlie's hit list. And Charlie was connected with Terry Melcher and Dennis Wilson.

We got a job.
What kind?
The forever kind.

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[–] rpniew 16 years ago

Manson had a lot of Hollywood connections, who have remained silent about it; not exactly a conspiracy but more a closing of ranks around the subject. Dennin Hopper has let a few things slip but others -- Angela Lansbury, whose daughter was a tangental member of the group, and Cary Grant, who seems to have had a vague awareness of some things that were going in in the Polanski house, for example -- remained silent. I don't see a broad conspiracy here, in spite of Maury Terry's otherwise excellent book (I do buy his Son of Sam theory) but there is more to the Manson story than has been revealed. Not enough to change our thinking about the crimes, but certainly enough to tantalize us.

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[–] dhmason6155 16 years ago

I think you mean the LATE Dennis Wilson. I knew his son Scott in the 70's when we were teenagers. A spoiled brat and total punk if ever there was one.

Charlie was a sociopath and very good at making "friends" and insinuating himself into peoples lives. He could manipulate anyone, get into anyones good graces and con just about anybody. He convinced Ruth Anne Moorehouses father to "give" her to him when she was 14.

So I'm sure he got around Hollywood quite a bit. He wanted to be a rock star before Terry Melcher turned him down. One of the real motives for the murders.

Go find Linda and bring her back here. Then we'll make her Come to Now.

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[–] Hoohawnaynay 14 years ago

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned beachfront property as being expensive even then, it was but this is also across from some oil wells which was probably down in Wilmington or Long Beach which wasn't as nice back then. So it was possible to have a flop house near the beach back then with those ugly oil wells right next to it.

Manson did kill the hippie movement and this movie was released after the murders. Hollywood for the most part did always portray hippies as dirty and morally bankrupt. Most were not but as a kid I find most hippies to be not that concerned with hygiene. Who wants to walk around barefoot these days with all the dirt and have calloused hard feet? I was 8 in 1969 and I do remember most hippies having dirty hair and looking pretty bad. As for their morals I don't know.

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[–] dhmason6155 14 years ago

Just watch "Woodstock"! Half a million hippies wallowing in the mud with no showers for a hundred miles. I was also eight in '69, and have no real memories of hippies at the time. Only idealized ones from books and movies and stories from people who were there. I lived in San Francisco in the eighties, however, and saw too many old hippies who had degenerated into druggies and vagrants. A sad story.

IMHO, the counterculture was at it's peak, and the most fun and exciting, from the early sixties until Woodstock, when the participants were mostly educated, middle class kids, aged teens to twenties. In other words, the baby boomers. They brought the youth, energy, vibrancy and idealism to the movement, not to mention hordes of nubile young chicks.

Then the movement ended, they all went home and got careers, and all that was left were the dregs.

"I have to pee"
"There'll be plenty of time to pee in Heaven"
"There's peeing in Heaven?"

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[–] Squeeth2 9 years ago

Fancy meeting you here. ;O) I've just ordered Marlowe as I'm fed up waiting until I can afford the dvd. How hippy is that?

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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[–] karnevilelp 9 years ago

Just watch "Woodstock"! Half a million hippies wallowing in the mud with no showers for a hundred miles. I was also eight in '69, and have no real memories of hippies at the time

I was nine, I do, both of my (older) sisters were full-on hippies: coming home and staring at the wall for 3 hours because they were on LSD, dating drummers in rock bands, protesting the war, the whole deal.

I lived in San Francisco in the eighties, however, and saw too many old hippies who had degenerated into druggies and vagrants. A sad story.

The Haight is just sad now, the only reason I go there on my visits is to go to awesome Amoeba Records.

IMHO, the counterculture was at it's peak, and the most fun and exciting, from the early sixties until Woodstock,

No, I would place the peak earlier, before Time, Look and other magazines started in with the whole Summer of Love thing in 1967. There's a good case to be made that the hippie movement was laid to rest on January 14, 1967 at the Human Be-In:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Be-In

After the Summer of Love was hyped in the media is when the hordes of idiots from elsewhere started flooding in to the Haight (and Greenwich Village and the Sunset Strip) looking for cheap drugs and easy sex.

when the participants were mostly educated, middle class kids, aged teens to twenties. In other words, the baby boomers. They brought the youth, energy, vibrancy and idealism to the movement, not to mention hordes of nubile young chicks.

You're forgetting the drugs. Lots and lots and lots of drugs. LSD was very powerful then, it was still being made by a handful of people like Owlsley. In 1967, there was a drug called STP that showed up, it didn't go well. From the Wikipedia article:

In mid-1967, tablets containing 20 mg (later 10 mg) of DOM were widely distributed in the Haight-Ashbury District of San Francisco under the name of STP. This short-lived appearance of DOM on the black market proved disastrous for several reasons.

A few years later, speed and barbiturates became popular. This happened in San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York.

Then the movement ended, they all went home and got careers, and all that was left were the dregs.

See: the scenes at the commune in Easy Rider.

A good movie that's a nice time capsule of the drug scene in 1967 is The Trip, with Peter Fonda, Dennis Hopper, Bruce Dern and others.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062395/

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[–] joe-2797 10 years ago

For anyone outside of California- and specifically on the coast, there were 20 or 30 normal, clean cut kids for every so-called hippie. The hippie thing is so overhyped. If you had bangs or sideburns because of the style, it didn't make you a hippie. But young kids walk around today thinking everyone was a hippie then, because of Hollywood. It is a joke. But for those of us in flyover country, we are used to seeing the world view of NYC and the California Coast as being sold as the norm.

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[–] drjukebox 9 years ago

I love you Alice B Toklas
with Peter S a hippy longhair.

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[–] dhmason6155 8 years ago

Bump

We got a job.
What kind?
...The Forever Kind.

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[–] adamwarlock 8 years ago

Movies were still the purview of the middle aged back then. They didn't get hippy culture and it's often looked down upon in mainstream films of the times (& on TV too). Now, they cater to youth to the point anyone over 30 feels childish watching the film!

I'm sure including hippies felt with the times at the time of release but obviously dates the film now. Still, a good film-being dated never turns me off completely.

if man is 5
then the devil is 6
if the devil is 6
then God is 7
and if God is 7...

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[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

Movies were still the purview of the middle aged back then. They didn't get hippy culture and it's often looked down upon in mainstream films of the times (& on TV too).
---

Then, as now -- an older generation of mediocre film studio people were afraid of losing their jobs and desperate to "connect with youth." But they could only really make fun of the hippie culture. You had movies with Bob Hope and Jackie Gleason interacting with hippies and the movies were just embarrassing. But then a number of things attendant to the hippies were embarrassing too -- Love-Ins and Sit-Ins and flower power and Nehru jackets. Hollywood locked all that down in their movies and lived to see it all go away in a couple of years.

But this only looked embarrassing when the mediocre film makers were doing it. The more hip and arful of writers, directors and stars knew how to bring in the New Wave: The Graduate, Bonnie and Clyde, Rosemary's Baby, Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider -- these were the "real deal" made by young filmmakers in the main.

"Marlowe" is a fairly tough and practical film, and its director, Paul Bogart, was respected. But the film can't help a little pandering to the hippie age. Look at the poster, with the flower symbol on the unseen babe's leg.

This is a great thread!

PS. This thread is rather "answered" in recent years by Quentin Tarantino's movie "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" which brings in the coming of the hippies and Charlie Manson into Old LIne Hollywood -- TV series division.

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