MovieChat Forums > Skammen (1968) Discussion > Anyone else disappointed by this?

Anyone else disappointed by this?

posted 17 years ago by kriege10
24 replies | jump to latest

Obviously, any film that is considered one of Bergman's best, (or even taking first place!), by critics as diverse as Pauline Kael, John Simon, Robin Wood and Jay Leyda, deserves a second viewing or even several viewings if one is disappointed. Despite having seen it a number of times over many years, I still can't help thinking that it offers some of the least interesting visuals of any of his major films. I also am not entirely convinced about that civil war raging in Sweden or where the boat people were supposed to be headed. The characters seemed a little schematic at first, although they did build in complexity--you almost felt as if Bergman were learning more about them as the film went on--but they should have been more complex to begin with. I don't think this is grossly overrated like "Fanny and Alexander", I just think it is only a pretty good movie--hardly a masterpiece or the greatest thing Bergman has ever filmed. Anyone in agreement or disagreement out there?

[–] Strausszek 17 years ago

It was panned in Sweden by many critics at the time of its release, who felt Bergman was sort of staging, as you say, a not fully convincing war and then leaving the real issues of the war sort of in the grey to zoom in on the forced guilt and moral conflicts inside of the people at the centre of the movie.
While this debate itself was somehow politicized, it's true Shame is not one of Bergman's more convincing movies; unlike Kubrick, he was never very much at home with political and social issues in his films.

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Thanks. I had some of the same thoughts myself. Actually, I am not very political, and it doesn't matter to me that Bergman didn't have an axe to grind like Godard in his political films, but what does matter is that I could not fathom what people would be making a revolution for in Sweden anyway. There were reasons for what happened in Cuba and Viet Nam, but social conditions were not at all the same in Sweden. And where were the boat people supposed to be going? Denmark? Why would the conditions of their crossing be so harrowing? And would it really be impossible to escape by land to Norway or Finland? Are we supposed to believe that Sweden would actually have set up concentration camps for the political prisoners as Gunnar Bjornstrand suggests? And over and above all, I just don't find that much to like about the way it is shot. Just compare it to "Persona"! Thank you again for your message. I was not aware that it had been panned in Sweden. In America, this film got almost nothing but raves and was touted as one of Bergman's very best. I am not writing it off yet. All films have their flaws, but this one is problematic in that it is strong in many ways, but also quite uneven.

[–] Strausszek 17 years ago

There were some very far out political groups in Sweden about this time, like in most Western countries, including a Maoist group calling themselves "The Rebels" (Rebellerna). It skyrocketed in the student political underground of Stockholm and Uppsala in the winter of 67/68 and actually talked of a bloodletting revolution (other groups of the era did this too, this was Che Guevara heyday), discussed piling up arms - and even went to the Chinese Embassy of Stockholm, to ask for permission to join the Chinese Red Army. When they were denied this by the top staff - experienced diplomats - they staged a criticism-self-criticism session there and then, bashing the Embassy people as traitors to the people of China and to the noble Cahairman Mao, none less (it was all recounted in a superb tv documentary last year). The whole episode was both frigthening and absurdly comic.

But I agree Bergman's main idea would not have been to bring out that kind of band. He just needed a biggie event to spin his drama around, but failed to do it convincingly.

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Thanks for the background info.

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Reviewed "Shame" (and also "The Rite") last night and my opinion is just reinforced. The characters were too schematic until the last part when Jan ended up assuming power because of his ruthlessness. Both characters were unappealing and while I agree that artists need not be restricted to making works about people who embody positive traits, that did not keep me from being uninterested in both the weakling husband and the bossy wife. Over and above all, the film is visually uninteresting, if not downright crude: witness all those hand-held shots or the way Bergman dollies forward to emphasize a point when the husband talks of "determinism" at the picnic. The best of Bergman's post-"Persona" films are only minor classics in my opinion, but this is even a notch below that: near-great.

[–] h_a_eriksson 17 years ago

A few remarks.

A fact not nown much outside of Sweden or even in Sweden: During world war II Sweden did have "internment camps". Those sent to those camps where communists who wanted sweden to take up arms and figth Hitler. They were concidered to be an enough threat to the neutrality that camps were set up. They were called Barbarossa camps by the communists themself - the name coming from Hitler's barbarossa offencive against the Sovietunion. Hitler attaced the Soviet union in 22 June 1941. On the 25 June the defence cabinet had a meeting where they decided to set up the camps. With support of the coalition government of Sweden (where all political parties, save the communists, were included).

It's not completely unlikly that there would not have been concentration camps in sweden - it's not swedes are all saint or like we are any better than every other nation.

And regarding where they were going. As far as I know they are at the Island of Gotland. It's a fairly large island on the east coast of Sweden. If you were to escape to Norway or Denmark you would have to cross over to the west coast/west border. Alas going straigth accross the whole of mainland Sweden. Not a possibility. If you were going to Finland you would have to first get 100 plus nautical miles to the north and then cross over the sea anyway - the land way to finland lies way way way up north from gotland. The best way to escape from gotland would be to head out to the ocean and aim for the east or south. Going to either Latvia or Poland.

A qick google search found this map: http://www.welt-atlas.de/datenbank/karten/karte-0-9004.gif look at where Gotland is.

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Thanks for the background information. Another question: Where did they go on the ferry? Weren't they going to the mainland and, if so, why couldn't they have gone at the end of the film just as easily as they did before?

[–] wshand-1 16 years ago

I didn't even think about it being set in Sweden but took it as sort of a generalized fictional civil war. Nothing the characters say leads us to their location (language doesn't count) and overall the details are kept to a minimum on purpose.

[–] kemalgez 17 years ago

I dont agree, I think this film is Bergman's best and most attractive and intensive film that Bergman ever filmed!!

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

A lot of people think so. Oh well, I guess I just think it is very good, not much of a criticism for other directors, but for Bergman in one of his best periods, I don't like it all that much.

[–] pacinoyes 17 years ago

It's among his best for me along with "The Virgin Spring".

[–] Frengers 17 years ago

I must say Shame has always been one of my favourite Bergman movies. I've only seen it once, but I found it one of his more visceral, immediate and directly affecting films on a first viewing. I had a similar reaction to The Virgin Spring.

[–] Kinematico 17 years ago

I haven't watched many Bergman films but from those that I've seen "Skammen" comes second in my list just behind "Fanny och Alexander".

Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Borowczyk76 16 years ago

No one here has ever thought about using a little bit of suspension of disbelief while viewing Shame? I only questioned myself briefly about the veracity of such conditions in Sweden. After that, all that mattered was what Bergman was trying to convey through his film. The character development is incredibly fascinating throughout the film (SPOILER: Jan becoming a ruthless killer under the pressure, Eva's strong character taking a beating because of the atrocities she has witnessed) , the concept of shame through love and war (AGAIN SPOILERS: both through Eva's affair with Jacobi and Jan's murderous turn). The film is not only about war in general and how it transforms people, it is also about interpersonal wars.

It never mattered to me if the fictional war was credible or not, it was how Bergman made these characters disintegrate through such a setting. And Bergman is AS successful in doing so in this film as he was with Persona or Hour Of The Wolf. He simply uses different means.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Apollinaire 15 years ago

Obviously, any film that is considered one of Bergman's best, (or even taking first place!), by critics as diverse as Pauline Kael, John Simon, Robin Wood and Jay Leyda, deserves a second viewing or even several viewings if one is disappointed.

Why would anyone care about what the critics have to say? Are you saying you had high hopes for the movie just because some got damn critic said it was 'Bergman's best'?

...and why would the film deserve a second viewing because some critic liked it?

[–] mackkanjilal 15 years ago

I am of the point of view that this was not one of Bergman's bests. I assume he took the help of a fictional war scenario to depict the character development of the two principal characters but somehow i feel he doesn't succeed entirely at that. For example, I think that the idea of portraying the change of character for Jan was brilliant but i do think it was abrupt. The transition was never focussed upon, which i did not expect from a man of his calibre.Again the chemistry between Jan and his wife, though a principal part of the story, was sketched pretty unevenly....but probably this was done intentionally. Overall this film lacks the strength of the main idea as compared to his other films like Persona, Winter Light. TAGD etc.

For me the merits of this film were some brilliant acting, above average direction and some wonderful cinematography.Though not upto the standard of his other creations it definitely is an example of brilliant fim-making.

On second thoughts, there are certain elements of a Bergman film which are always left to the viewers' interpretation.Maybe i missed out some of those Genuius Elements of this film. I would love to have an insight on those aspects from some of you who rates this as one of his masterpieces.

Never hate your enemies...it affects your judgement

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ObservationBlogger 10 years ago

I just saw it this afternoon and agree completely with your take on it.

I thought the performances were a bit stilted and overall it just felt kind of lazy.

The Winter Light is my favourite Bergman movie followed closely by Wild Strawberries. I have a few more too watch.

I'll need to see this and the Passion of Anna again to get a better grasp.

My 100 favorite movies http://www.imdb.com/list/Uvw_F2_GMx8/
What are your favorites?

[–] Errington_92 9 years ago

Skammen is an emotionally devastating portrayal of war. The lead performances like in other Bergman films are effective in conveying the psychological toll war can have along with its repercussions. The last few minutes with a lack of dialogue concluded these themes with great effect.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.

[–] ObservationBlogger 9 years ago

Need to see it again. It hasn't dwelled in my memory like other Bergman films so it's unlikely to improve much on my first take. You never know. Just saw Fanny and Alexander and that is MAGIC more so the second half.

My 100 favorite movies http://www.imdb.com/list/Uvw_F2_GMx8/
What are your favorites?

[–] prplayer 8 years ago

me

so many movies, so little time