Can't make mistake?


I generally like the movie. It does strike me as a very "60's" movie: clearly, the makers thought it would be relatively easy for the Catholic Church to turn into a liberal institution. If you just had several cardinals who favored liberation theology, the direction of the church could be changed.

There is one theological point in the story that I suspect is a little off. Towards the end, when he's perplexed by what to do, Pope Kiril says something like, "one consolation is that I can't make a mistake." I don't think that's really the Catholic doctrine. The church doesn't deny that popes can make mistakes. It sets forth a pretty narrow definition of what is infallible about popes.

Actually, I think the idea of papal infallibility is close to meaningless. One person I knew who is quite knowledgeable about theology said papal pronouncements about artificial birth control and other things are not necessarily infallible. So what is? One Catholic "answer column" I saw in the 80's admitted there is uncertainty about just what is infallible. One of the few recognized infallible doctrines seems to be papal infallibility!

I think saying the pope is infallible amounts to no more than saying you're willing to respect his authority. But others might say the same while holding fundamentally different understandings of what he teaches.

"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."

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Perhaps your friend meant that there was uncertainty about which papal statements are infallible. Not all Catholic Church teaching comes from the teaching power of the Pope. More often than not, teachings are articulated by an Ecumenical Council or simply received through oral tradition. Papal pronouncements concerning birth control may or may not be infallible, but the teachings upon which they are based certainly are (for instance, Pope Paul VI's 1968 encyclical on the matter is not considered infallible in itself, but it articulates an ancient tradition that is considered de fide).

The two papal pronouncements always considered infallible are the Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and the Assumption of Mary by Pope Pius XII in 1950. Most people also consider the Tome of St. Leo from the fifth century to be the first exercise of papal infallibility. From there the list usually varies from one to four more.

Though papal infallibility is far less important to Church teaching than many people think, it certainly means more than simply respecting his authority.

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When speaking on matters of faith, the Pope is infallible; on all other things his opinions bear no more weight than anyone else's.

"..sure you won't change your mind? Why, is there something wrong with the one I have?"

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Thomas Nast--who did not like neither Pope Pius IX nor Irish Catholics--drew a Tammany Hall cartoon in which all the leaders of the Tammany Ring are depicted as bishops and cardinals in a parody of the First Vatican Council. Obviously Nast thought HE was infallible.

God is subtle, but He is not malicious. (Albert Einstein)

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Okay, so how do you decide which issues are "matters of faith"? And once you decide which ones are, how do you know your decision is infallible? As I said, I think this basically reduces down to respecting the pope's authority. If Pope Francis says something you respect, you are more likely to think he's infallible. If he says something disagreeable to you, you will accept his infallibility only if you are really determined to think a pope can't be wrong.

The problem with saying anything is infallible is that in saying so, you are making it unlike other things in our customary experience. The people and books we encounter normally are not absolutely free of error. If you treat something as infallible, you start to lose the ability to understand it. You can only understand something to the extent it is like other things you know. But of course if you respect someone's authority, that's not a problem for you: you are inclined to accept their statements even when you don't understand them. But as I said, two people may accept a pope's statements as infallible while understanding them in completely different (and maybe contradictory) ways. So that raises a question about whether "infallible teaching authority" really provides any useful information.

For example, Martin Luther and his Catholic opponents both thought the Bible was infallible, but they drew contrary conclusions from it.

We accept people's authority all the time because it makes life easier for us. If I go to my doctor or auto mechanic, it normally makes sense to trust them to do a job I couldn't do myself. Only when my health deteriorates or the car breaks down after I see them would I suspect they fell into error. I think that's the only kind of "infallibility" I accept: trusting people enough that I can focus on other matters and get through my life.

But if I say, "I'm going to trust them even when their work seems to fail," I have accepted their infallibility as a DOGMA. Now, has the pope's leadership ever failed? That's the question that would be debated passionately by a lot of people. I personally think so, but it's a complex issue.

"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."

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The pope only purports to be infallible when he speaks (more accurately, writes), ex cathedra on matters pertaining strictly to the theological beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church.

On pretty much all other matters (birth control, divorce, female clergy) any pope could issue a new policy any time he felt like it and it would simply be regarded as a new operating policy, not a matter of faith.

However if a pope were to issue an encyclical and specify it was being written ex cathedra, and that he interpreted the Bible (for example) to say Mary was a divinity equal to the members of the Trinity and thus formed a "Holy Quadrumvirate," he would be invoking infallibility.

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4) You ever seen Superman $#$# his pants? Case closed.

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jaystarstar,
I think that raises the same question again. How would you know when he spoke "ex cathedra"? How often does the pope say, "I'm speaking ex cathedra"? I'm assuming very seldom.

Let me ask you: if he said "ex cathedra" that Mary was an equal member of a quadrumvirate, would you accept it?

If it's true that the popes seldom speak ex cathedra, what good does the doctrine of papal infallibility do? If you can't rely on the popes to be infallible about much, why think they're ever infallible? Obviously on matters like birth control you get no guarantee from that. It seems when you follow the pope's advice on birth control, you're doing it because you personally respect his authority, not because you believe he can't make mistakes.

"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."

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I realize the basic point is divine revelation: that God reveals to us the truths we need, and God cannot err. The ex cathedra statements are the ones based on divine revelation. The question then is whether God is infallible, not the pope.

However, if you look at the way this sort of claim tends to be made about the Bible, sometimes people will say something is infallible (or "inerrant") because it's in the Bible, and at other times, they imply that if it really belongs in the Bible, it must be inerrant. For example, conservative Protestants often say that it's only the "autographs," or original manuscripts of the Bible that we don't have, that were inerrant. If we had them, we would see that any errors we see in today's Bibles weren't there. So the whole claim of infallibility is unverifiable.

I'm assuming a similar thing might happen in Catholic theology. If people think a particular statement by the pope is true, they will be more likely to say it's infallible and "ex cathedra." If they don't think it's true, they say it's not ex cathedra.


"Extremism in the pursuit of moderation is no vice."

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The film is based on the book of the same name, written by Australian author Morris West who studied for the Priesthood and was very knowledgeable on things Catholic.

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The Pope is supposed to be infallible when he speaks "ex cathreda", meaning in relation to the church. It is supposed to be a limited power.

It does not mean he can tell you what will win the fifth race at Randwick.

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